Tier List Speculation

[HaZarD2kv]

Could someone please put up a link to the state tier list? It would be greatly appreciated (if there is one).

 

[didds]

i was just trying to be funny so no state list

sorry

we could speculate on a real one, but this wouldn't be the proper thread

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'm I'm Kansas right now and it's awful

Come to MD babe.

Also: is designed perfectly in my honest opinion. He has his weak points and his strong points. He isn't overpowered. I think he's top 10, but any good /// will give a tough time (His matchups he most likely loses off the top of my head).

I think people are complete garbage with items. No one ever attempts to wavedash or catch bananas I toss at them. People don't take important things made for the game into account. His fair is indeed powerful, but it's basically a knee.

Without 's fair being as strong as it is, he loses his only reliable kill option since uthrow doesn't kill most characters (fast fallers/floaties) till like 180/140 respectively. Fsmash isn't reliable and neither is Dsmash since bananas can be tech'd loool.

 

[G13_Flux]

i wouldnt say that diddy loses to your above mentioned characters. in fact, i think that falco and marth could easily lose to diddy.

i do agree that people havent quite gotten to the point of consistently advanced item usage though. i see very little AGT unfortunately, and not enough characters try to use an opponents items against them.

also, @SpiderMad the falling speed actually hurts fast fallers horrizontally. not directly, but since they have such a high gravity, it makes them fall lower than other characters, and thus, its much harder to recover. also, this hurts their survival DI capabilities just slightly, since their falling speed causes them to ultimately take on a sharper curving parabolic path, which means they would end up lower than a floatier character of the same weight (and hit by the same attack), and thus reach the blast line quicker.

 

[XXXX1000]

I agree that Diddy is a fantastically designed character, well done PMBR

that said, I think people's opinions of him may be inflated due to people not being experienced with bananas. Of course, once opponents get better at countering bananas, Diddy players will get better at using them, and it goes in a circle, but I don't think Diddy's bananas will ever be "better" than what we see now, but as players adapt they may be seen as worse than once thought.

 

[standardtoaster]

@ MechWarriorNY , don't directly post huge images like that. Either link them or put them in collapse tags.

 

[MechWarriorNY]

I slipped up. Duly noted.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Sorry no don't care how fantastically he's designed, I'll never lose my Diddy salt from Brawl

I actually like Snake enough to the point of wanting to use him, though, so good job on turning my most hated character around like that. Snake is so much fun when he isn't mindlessly slinging grenades like monkey poo.

 

[Professor Pro]

Lucas, Wolf, Diddy, Mario?

All of these characters had strong players long before S@X was as big as it was. VGBC's exposure is amazing and reaches a large audience for smash, but these characters were generally believed to be very good way before even 3.0 came out, lol. With the exception of maybe Diddy Kong. (But I believed)

There are still entire areas that people don't know about in terms of PM. There are still people that believe that @ Professor Pro isn't the best Snake in the world. Both of these things are crazy.

....These people exist

Who else could they think is the best Snake though...must be @Unholydeath123 or @EastCoastEddie because it can't that fraud @RolexPachinko who is ignoring me every time I ask to raise the MM to $200

@NiPPs speak to your cousin

 

[Strong Badam]

There are people out there that don't know Reflex exists. Goofs

 

[didds]

What kind of reflex?

like a gag reflex?

 

[woundedust]

I think a good marth beats diddy. Taking control of bananas and keeping him out with fairs should technically **** him down.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

There are people out there that don't know Reflexes exists. Goofs

Do you even have reflexes?

 

[Ace55]

the falling speed actually hurts fast fallers horrizontally. not directly, but since they have such a high gravity, it makes them fall lower than other characters, and thus, its much harder to recover. also, this hurts their survival DI capabilities just slightly, since their falling speed causes them to ultimately take on a sharper curving parabolic path, which means they would end up lower than a floatier character of the same weight (and hit by the same attack), and thus reach the blast line quicker.

Horizontal moves yes but I wouldn't say it hurts their 'survival DI capabilities'. As a fastfaller you can eat you average diagonal attack way longer than floatier chars can since i's so hard to die of the top.

 

[G13_Flux]

But if dying of the top is not the question, and instead, it's a more horizontal attack, they won't be able to push themselves up to the corner as far since they have greater acceleration. Think of it as two parabolic paths that start at the same angle. The fast fallers path will curve greater and end lower, thus they travel a shorter distance oncel they reach the blast line. The floatier character of same weight will have lass if a curve, and will end up higher, thus traveling a longer distance and having less of a chance to go past the blast line. That's how it works mathematically, one of the pmbr members can hopefully confirm if the game reads trajectories like that.

 

[Soft Serve]

I think a good marth beats diddy. Taking control of bananas and keeping him out with fairs should technically **** him down.

Its not fair walls, because if Marth leaves the ground its just as risky to leave the ground in like the marth/shiek MU. He will eat a glidetossed banana or a side-b or a DA because its not hard for diddy to get under marth as soon as he jumps. Where marth controls the MU is in his movement game being much better, and Marth's punish game being a ton better on Diddy than the other way around. Marths comboing Diddy can just follow a generic fast-faller combo flow chart, but Diddy is only the 5th fastest faller and the gap between the other 4 (fox/falco/wolf/falcon) is significant enough so that Unless the marth messes up royalty Diddy won't have the chance at hitting the ground and teching out. Diddy can out-camp marth but Marth's punish game on Diddy is easy and stupid strong. I think the general consensus on the marth/diddy MU for diddy mains is 60/40 marth. and it can drop to 50/50 depending on stage (dreamland and skyworld come to mind as my preferred CPs)

 

[Ace55]

But if dying of the top is not the question, and instead, it's a more horizontal attack, they won't be able to push themselves up to the corner as far since they have greater acceleration.

Yeah it's a trade-off but in general I'd say their survival ability is better than floatier chars with the same weight. Falcon just refuses to die outright with good DI.

 

[G13_Flux]

well yeah it wasnt to say that their survivability isnt, or cant be good. because obviously, especially off the top, its insanely difficult to kill those like falcon, wolf, dk, and falco, and with good DI, they can survive well no matter what.

the reason why i originally said that was because somebody had said that being a fast faller helps you potentially live longer horizontally, where it actually hurts your horizontal survivability instead, compared to someone of the same weight and a smaller gravity.

 

[BluntedMask]

Meta Knight vs Falco/Fox.

Do people have any idea what it might be? My opinion is that they are 50/50 or 45/55 in the Fox/Falco's favor.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Different depending on stage, but in average 50/50 in Falco's case (too easy to edgeguard to be favourable for Falco, and MK has enough mixup to have decent neutral game winning quotes in neutral game), 55/45 for Fox in Fox's case... (here Fox has better recovery, gets kills earlier and sitting in his shield is easier for Fox because his nair OoS and shine OoS are faster which hurts MK because he has not that much against shields if airbourne). Of course on something like FD Falco MU is much worse than the Fox MU and on other stages MK just wins but the average should be nearly the given

 

[Deleted member]

I think marth loses to diddy, I could see falco slightly beating diddy.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think marth loses to diddy, I could see falco slightly beating diddy.

Both beat .

 

[Oracle]

Marth sucks tho. Diddy is an amalgamation of all the stuff marth yates. Trick recovery to guard from on stage, comparable speed and grab, quick projectiles, good cc and range. Marth can def make it work but I doubt its anything better than even for him

 

[Scuba Steve]

I think marth loses to diddy, I could see falco slightly beating diddy.

Both beat .

How about y'all both, I dunno, give reasons for your opinions?

 

[Deleted member]

Diddys ground game challenges marths control of the stage pretty well

 

[Vashimus]

Vague statement is vague.

 

[Soft Serve]

Its not fair walls, because if Marth leaves the ground its just as risky to leave the ground in like the marth/shiek MU. He will eat a glidetossed banana or a side-b or a DA because its not hard for diddy to get under marth as soon as he jumps. Where marth controls the MU is in his movement game being much better, and Marth's punish game being a ton better on Diddy than the other way around. Marths comboing Diddy can just follow a generic fast-faller combo flow chart, but Diddy is only the 5th fastest faller and the gap between the other 4 (fox/falco/wolf/falcon) is significant enough so that Unless the marth messes up royalty Diddy won't have the chance at hitting the ground and teching out. Diddy can out-camp marth but Marth's punish game on Diddy is easy and stupid strong. I think the general consensus on the marth/diddy MU for diddy mains is 60/40 marth. and it can drop to 50/50 depending on stage (dreamland and skyworld come to mind as my preferred CPs)

 

[Cassio]

That basically admits Marth loses the neutral game but claims Marth wins because Diddy gets punished hard when hes hit. If thats how things worked we'd have to seriously reevaluate characters like Fox and Ganon.

Also Diddy's punish game is definitely powerful in the right hands.

 

[trash?]

That basically admits Marth loses the neutral game but in the Marth wins because Diddy gets punished hard when hes hit. If thats how things worked we'd have to seriously reevaluate characters like Fox and Ganon.

nah, that's already put into the equation. it's why, in melee, marth vs fox is even on average, because despite fox generally winning the neutral game, marth can hit fox once and even a decent conversion leads to, at worst, massive damage. hell, even when positive matchups pop up vs. space animals in P:M, it's because the character who wins has a disgustingly good punish game on top of a neutral that's just good enough

 

[Soft Serve]

That basically admits Marth loses the neutral game but claims Marth wins because Diddy gets punished hard when hes hit. If thats how things worked we'd have to seriously reevaluate characters like Fox and Ganon.

Also Diddy's punish game is definitely powerful in the right hands.

The counterplay of the MU is pretty much all in Marth's hands. If marth doesn't address projectile camping correctly he does get punished. However smart counter-item play when paired with Marth's already fantastic spacing and pressure game makes neutral problematic for Diddy. The neutral game is slightly in Diddy's advantage, a lot more in his advantage if the marth doesn't deal with projectiles well.

There are tons of MU's where one character dominates the neutral but its still roughly 50/50. Falco MU's in melee are pretty much a perfect example of the this. Fox and Ganon are complete opposite of the spectrum in terms of mobility and neutral so that extension of my MU analysis doesn't work out.

 

[Cassio]

Banana's aren't about projectile camping, its about stage control and punishment. The rest of your reasoning sorta fails after that because Marths spacing, pressure, and counterplay all take big hits :/

 

[Soft Serve]

Diddy projectile camps with popgun, throwing out a banana in neutral isn't safe as if they shield it or just grab it by Wding backwards you lose a large amount of your presence on stage. Especially against marth, bananas that are left around have very little control unless Diddy is himself there to swiftly control they space they lay in, or Diddy is already controlling that section of the match, and then it wouldn't be in neutral. If marth gets ahold of a banana, He can on reaction glide toss in himself if Diddy tries to pull out another one.

 

[ELI-mination]

Marth is low tier

 

[Oracle]

he should have two swords

 

[jtm94]

Marth has a cheap dair, that makes him good.

I hear he has range over most characters in this game and can literally just combo them away if he reacts fast enough, but I guess I've only heard that.

On another note, I want to revisit Kirby Dash attack. Why is it so amazing? There was a point when discovering it that it was far too good. Then we realized aerials can't be clanked by it so it seemed like an out. Now, we are to the realization that it is ridiculously hard to react to it because of it's amazing startup, speed and literally no end lag. People say some moves are lagless, but you can space it PERFECTLY by dashing back and punishing with a grab, but Kirby can spot dodge the moment it ends. It is an incredibly silly move, that makes me think about how to play around it the entire match even if they don't use it because of the threat it poses.

 

[NickRiddle]

Kirby's dash attack is good because the rest of his tools are mediocre.

 

[Halfhead]

I'm new to this thread, but I've been playing a lot of Project M recently and I've to a few conclusions. Forgive me if they've already been posted, this thread is quite long.

From the lists I've seen, Squirtle is being placed way too low. What's the reasoning behind this? His wall game, ledge game, and mobility are insane! I'm just not seeing what's putting him so low. In my opinion, he gets to about second highest tier or so.

Pikachu, although being very similar to his Melee appearence, seems much better suited for Project M. His moves tend to have a very high priority and come out quite quickly. He has very good spacing potential and a nice set of finishing moves.

I had some thoughts on Wolf as well, but after reading through some of this, I've changed my mind. I think peoples' general perception of him is near accurate.

This seems to be a near universal idea around here, but Ness is absolutely low. Lucas simply outclasses him and there is little reason to use him.

Also, have people not been playing against good Jigglypuffs lately? Why the sudden disinterest. Jiggs wins tournaments, brah.

 

[B.W.]

Jiggs wins tournaments in Melee. Unless you're Hungrybox, who doesn't even use Jiggs exclusively in PM, you're not going to do much. Lots of characters, new and old, have tools to deal with Jiggs now.

 

[Vashimus]

Pikachu can't space to save its life versus a majority of the cast. He certainly hits hard and QAC aids his approach quite a bit, but a lot of his moves (especially aerials) still hit very close to his body. He's not going to be beating out many moves in neutral.

 

[Halfhead]

Interesting. I agree mostly about Jiggs, that makes sense.

I still have some support for Pikachu, however. When attacking straight on, his priority beats most attacks. I surprised myself the other day when I decided to pick up Pikachu on a whim and I found that his smashes and side special can beat a lot of Marth's spacing techniques.