Tier List Speculation

[B.W.]

That's a bad Marth. And Side-B is a terrible move for attacking.

Pikachu's priority is so-so, but for the most part his hitboxes are pretty easy to beat. His real strengths are his mobility, ability to combo and his Star KO power. Also his recovery is pretty great too.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Both beat .

Sorry, but its easy to play a high-top tier and just claim he loses many matchups, maybe as john... I play all characters mentioned in that context and while Falco really has an advantage over Diddy Kong, mainly because lasers interrupting every banana setup and because Diddy has enough fallspeed to be very vulnerable to Falco, I don't agree with Marth. Diddy Kong has a projectile and the banana that makes Marth's approaching more difficult. You can punish Marth hard for every commitment by either grab and then probably u-throw->fair->potential edgeguard, or just throw banana->grab/dash attack. Marth also has his tools, for example shield breaker can work well as onstage edgeguard and he has the spacing, but Diddy Kong is somewhat superior if you don't just run in and aerial but just play a smart anti-approach game (also @Soft Serve , neutral game is everything, if you don't win it with Marth you can't get your combos, and estimating a MU considering obvious neutral game flaws by the side who wins the neutral game is obviously stupid). My estimation would be 55-45 for Diddy Kong, then again, I tend to centralize matchups more than others for various reasons (would take too long here to explain) so one could also argue for a 60-40.

 

[KayB]

Does anybody think Jiggs needs more tools? Or at least slightly buffed more moves.

 

[didds]

I'm new to this thread, but I've been playing a lot of Project M recently and I've to a few conclusions. Forgive me if they've already been posted, this thread is quite long.

From the lists I've seen, Squirtle is being placed way too low. What's the reasoning behind this? His wall game, ledge game, and mobility are insane! I'm just not seeing what's putting him so low. In my opinion, he gets to about second highest tier or so.

Squirtle might be a little underrated, but he's definitely not in the second highest tier. His mobility is insane and he does have great ledge game among other assets, but he is very vulnerable once caught and dies quickly if your opponent knows how to punish. His techs are still garbage so reading him is easier than reading Sarah Palin's biography. His offense just isn't so potent to justify that high of a position on the tier list.

I do think he's better than low though, just not quite that great.

top tier taunt though.

And slays non DI'ing nubs like no other.

And he's a pretty good anti projectile character.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Does anybody think Jiggs needs more tools? Or at least slightly buffed more moves.

Slight buff would be nice, she wasn't good in Melee because she was good by herself but because most viable characters were fitting well in her strengthes-weaknesses scheme. Now she has an absurd matchup spread. It is not that she is clearly bad, but there are just some matchups she wins easily and others she loses even more clearly and that, I think, is something which needs a change. Probably a slight buff so she can do something against characters outspacing her would be enough. I would focus mainly on her neutral game there, so maybe making the up-b somewhat dangerous move (can still be the sleep, but just better) good as approach or anti-approach tool. I think outside of neutral game she doesn't need anything, considering her edgeguarding and avoiding of opponent's combos

 

[Terotrous]

I definitely think Jiggs is too limited, and at least one of Neutral B or Up B needs to be turned into a useful move. Jiggs is the only character in the game with two B moves that are nearly useless (well, maybe also Sheik if you count Down B as a move, but Sheik is way better overall). Even Jiggs down B is super situational and doesn't help her get in at all.

A couple ideas to make her better were suggested, like jump cancellable rollout, but to be honest I don't really like the idea of Jiggs being Sonic 2.0. I'd much rather see Sing get some kind of buff, because it's pretty much Jiggs' signature move but it's always been fairly useless. Perhaps slightly more range + the ability to cancel with shield / air dodge?

 

[Cassio]

Interesting. I agree mostly about Jiggs, that makes sense.

I still have some support for Pikachu, however. When attacking straight on, his priority beats most attacks. I surprised myself the other day when I decided to pick up Pikachu on a whim and I found that his smashes and side special can beat a lot of Marth's spacing techniques.

Pikachu is pretty bad. He can still be fun though.

Although what youre talking about might be his disjoints. Many characters outrange pikachu but aren't as disjointed as pika. So if you use an attack while theyre attacking you can win.

On that subject, does anyone have an image of Mewtwo's typical hitbox vs hurtbox on his tail?

 

[SpaceJello]

when is ness getting buffed?

 

[Scuba Steve]

when is ness getting buffed?

Ness doesn't need them

 

[Paradoxium]

Pikachu can't space to save its life versus a majority of the cast. He certainly hits hard and QAC aids his approach quite a bit, but a lot of his moves (especially aerials) still hit very close to his body. He's not going to be beating out many moves in neutral.

With Pikachu it is often times better to space your attacks so you land behind your opponents shield rather than in front, it's a different kind of spacing but it still counts. You can also rar and space his bair. And he has that oh so good dash dance which is breath for spacing

And is Pikachu's fair disjointed or something? That move goes through so much.

 

[Paradoxium]

Ness doesn't need them

But Pk fire does

:D

 

[Bryonato]

With Pikachu it is often times better to space your attacks so you land behind your opponents shield rather than in front, it's a different kind of spacing but it still counts. You can also rar and space his bair. And he has that oh so good dash dance which is breath for spacing

that's called a crossup. Don't mean to be condescending or anything, just not sure if you knew.

But Pk fire does

:D

yeah man buff pkf that move is so bad

 

[Chesstiger2612]

If a character can't win with spacing, there is still pressure. Otherwise you still have a projectile. I honestly think Pikachu isn't as bad with pressuring, especially mixups which are important if you haven't a shine or Lucario cancels, when using QAC right. Still a little subpar, but bad doesn't fit imho.

 

[XXXX1000]

I am so glad that everyone talking about buffing Sing isn't in the PMBR, I don't think any idea is worse than that

 

[didds]

I once suggested that olimar and his pikmin all get swords...

yea wait nevermind, that idea is awesome

 

[Paradoxium]

that's called a crossup. Don't mean to be condescending or anything, just not sure if you knew.

I know it's called a cross up, but it is also a type of spacing

 

[CyberZixx]

Here is the thing about Marth vs Diddy. The existence of bananas on the ground completely removes Marth's neutral game of DDing around. He either has to jump more with aerials which is of course bad with Marth so you have to play the banana game as Marth which removes your ability to grab and thus still removes your DD and thus your movement. So as Marth you gotta get bananas and quickly seize an opportunity to convert grabs off them into big combos which thankfully diddy is susceptible to upthrow. I don't think it's a hard counter or anything but I think Diddy beats Marth.

 

[G13_Flux]

^ def agreed. I think diddy has a slight advantage. The only thing marth has in this MU to aid him is disjoint.

Another one that I think beats marth is ZSS. Again, it's slight, but she's even faster than diddy, and has several good ranged options, as well as a good ability to punish math hard when he's in the air (think of the shiek MU). Between paralyzer shots, nairs, and spaced bairs, dsmashes, and side bs, she has a lot of options to make marths ground approach difficult and force him into the air.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Zard is also challenging for Marth, one of his worst matchups. That dragon is almost immune to grab followups, and outspacing him is hard. I don't think Marth has many really worse matchups, he has many where he has a very slight disadvantage but there are maybe 5 where you could really claim he would "lose" against a certain character. Marth also has some very good matchups which normally are more advantageous than the worse matchups are disadvantegous.

 

[JOE!]

Zard is also challenging for Marth, one of his worst matchups. That dragon is almost immune to grab followups, and outspacing him is hard. I don't think Marth has many really worse matchups, he has many where he has a very slight disadvantage but there are maybe 5 where you could really claim he would "lose" against a certain character. Marth also has some very good matchups which normally are more advantageous than the worse matchups are disadvantegous.

Hmm, how does zard get out of his Grab followups, exactly?

 

[TreK]

Speaking of his grab followups, Marth seems to benefit a bit from the greater proportion of floaties among the pool of viable characters, compared to Melee.

 

[Axrz]

^ def agreed. I think diddy has a slight advantage. The only thing marth has in this MU to aid him is disjoint.

Another one that I think beats marth is ZSS. Again, it's slight, but she's even faster than diddy, and has several good ranged options, as well as a good ability to punish math hard when he's in the air (think of the shiek MU). Between paralyzer shots, nairs, and spaced bairs, dsmashes, and side bs, she has a lot of options to make marths ground approach difficult and force him into the air.

Here's a slightly outdated (but still relevant) discussion/guide from Oro?! talking specifically about that matchup.

http://smashboards.com/threads/zss-matchup-discussion-outdated.335020/#post-15408182

Also, a characters punish game isn't really a deciding factor when figuring out a matchup. Even if they have a near guaranteed 0-death it doesn't really matter if you've already lost the neutral game a million times trying to get something started. See: Melee Ice Climbers with wobbling legal.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Zard can't escape early f-throw followups but as soon as he is mid %s his combination of heavy weight and floatiness makes grab followups much harder. It is quite the opposite of Fox (fastfaller, leightweight) who is very vulnerable to grab followups. Weight affects when you are released from the animation I think (or sth else), together with floatiness this makes jumping out much easier. Marths f-throw gets worse quickly with increasing %s when the DI (down+away) is correct

 

[Strong Badam]

Hmm, how does zard get out of his Grab followups, exactly?

Doesn't need to. You can be combo'd hard by a character and beat them. See: spacies.

 

[woundedust]

Really? People think zard beats marth? Ive played that MU and it goes pretty even, both rely on spacing and playing patiently to get something started.

 

[Deleted member]

i don't think marth is that good but i don't see how he loses to charizard. zard is the exact kind of MU marth can still use his Plan A against.

That basically admits Marth loses the neutral game but claims Marth wins because Diddy gets punished hard when hes hit. If thats how things worked we'd have to seriously reevaluate characters like Fox and Ganon.

thats exactly how that MU goes though, marth is worse in neutral but upthrow vs diddy is ridiculous as long as you don't punt.

fox and ganon are silly because fox is both the fastest AND has the best punishment game, while ganon has neither.

 

[Strong Badam]

Nah dude Ganon can guess right 3 times in a row and still not kill someone, so he's amazing.

 

[DMG]

How many of you *actually* play Marth? Jesus you people are real depressed about his MU's. His MU's are so underrated, it's no wonder people take "Marth is low tier" as Sunday Sermon!

Get better managing bananas, in all aspects. You can:

Swat them
Pick them up with wavedashing/wavelanding
Accept banana hits in the air to avoid the trip + you tech (you can actually recover faster by doing this if you are low enough to the ground, than if you tripped and teched normally iirc)
Glide toss them back or AGT them in various ways
Z Drop them (try jumping over Diddy, and Z dropping + threatening to footstool if they shield camp)
Hold onto one, so that you stop the apparently "devilish" setup of 1 Banana on the floor + 1 Banana in hand


If Diddy has a Banana on the floor, why does this stop you? "Oh sheeeit, I can'd DD in that spot anymore!" Ok then, analyze that spot. How far away is that Banana placed? If it's too far from Diddy, what the hell stops you from picking that bad boy up? Fear? Ignorance? Go pick that thing up, littering is bad. If you're spaced so far away, that Diddy can't punish you for quickly wavedashing to pick it up, then frankly you probably don't *need* to worry about your DD at that range. You're falsely being "limited" at those ranges because of the lack of executing the remedy.


If it's right in front of Diddy, and he's shielding/camping/doing whatever, then get up close with him too. Empty jump near the banana: if he goes for an attack you can swat at him. If he's shield camping, baiting a messed up approach where you might trip on the banana already on the floor, you can opt to go through him, over him, waveland backwards on top of the banana to catch it, etc


Someone like Marth can also extend attacks past the Banana spaced on the floor. You can still tilt and Fair around that area.

If you play a stronger projectile character, you will laugh at Bananas on the floor because SPOILER ALERT I'M MARIO/LINK/JESUS BABY AND I CAME TO BALL


I think Diddy's neutral is decent, but it's much more based on getting options for dealing with mistakes, rather than forcing mistakes. You "force" mistakes by a person being impatient or ignorant of how they can handle his projectiles or campy setups. It's more akin to "Oh hey, I can bait certain things with a Banana in hand and get decent punishes that I might have missed out on otherwise", instead of "My dash speed/grab range/shield pressure/extreme tech chasing lead my opponent to have no options". He's kind of overrated, and on a more minor note, people tend to assume that he kills somehow. Diddy is living that struggle on trying to find overpowered kill options. He really is. People only reliably list Fair in that department (the issues with Dsmash and Fsmash for being staple are on the wall), and you better get your ass way offstage sometimes to make that dream come true. Maybe find the cheese in your soul and try to Upb kill people.



As for other Marth MU's, it's true that he probably loses to Zard, but I dunno if I agree with a lot of Brawl characters that get tossed around as "Oh yeah he totally wins vs Marth". I think people just assume that Brawl characters will get super duper beefed up in Metagame knowledge, and suddenly MK is #1 instead of Fox and Marth can't beat Ike or TL. So on and so forth. Brawl characters get a lot of free passes on potential or future advancement, and it really shows in how people rate Marth's MU's vs Brawl characters.

 

[JOE!]

Hm, from my experience vs good Marths I go evenish, how does Zard win in that MU?

Everything seems to point to 50/50

 

[Deleted member]

How many of you *actually* play Marth? Jesus you people are real depressed about his MU's. His MU's are so underrated, it's no wonder people take "Marth is low tier" as Sunday Sermon!

I'm pretty good at marth, his MUs aren't that good.

 

[DMG]

They aren't too strong, but he does better than "Oh it's a Brawl character? They prob beat Marth".

 

[G13_Flux]

@ DMG well theres a lot of brawl characters that dont beat marth.. its only a few that have been named to possibly beat him. people have named diddy, zard, and then i brought up ZSS as a speculative option but not many really wanted to discuss her. also, are you saying that marth beats diddy then? you are right in that marth does have enough mobility to contend against the bananas, and a smart player can deal with them; however, it definitely cant be ignored that every time diddy has a banana in place, thats right, marth cant DD there. sure its not the end of the world, marth could WD into it or just pick it up, but diddy can punish that. the fact that marth would have to either stay away from that space, or try to pick it up, means that diddy has succesfully limited marths options. in conjuntion with diddys peanuts, he can force reactions from a distance and use bananas to punish those reactions. The icing on the cake is that diddy is also faster than marth in the air and on the ground. ranged pressure can easily help him deal with marths disjoint, and his speed allows him to make the punish.

I dont think this MU is impossible for marth, and he does have options to deal with diddys ranged pressure, the difference though is that with a maze of projectiles to deal with, marth is forced to react to diddy more than diddy is to marth. diddy can supply pressure more effectively because he has far better control of the stage and can limit marths options better than marth can limit diddys options. marths speed doesnt exactly pressure diddy like he might pressure a slower character. Diddys tech chase potential and ability to punish oportunities in this MU is slightly more than marths imo.

as far as killing goes, while diddys options arent as plentiful as other characters, he does have reliable set ups into the options he does have, like fair, dsmash, fsmash, and up b. things like fsmash and dsmash can be set up through tech chases and bananas, and ive seen diddy set up into up b through a dash attack enough times to know that it actually is relatively reliable. fair has plenty of reliable set ups that i dont think i need to cover. marth might be able to get the early kill with the ken combo, but past that hes got.. fsmash. fsmash is good dont get me wrong, but a smart diddy player knows hes going to be fishing for it, and since he can easily supply pressure from a distance, its harder for marth to land it compared to a lot of other members of the cast.

like i said i dont think its a blow out but i think its definitely shifted towards diddy. i would keep an open mind that it could be even as well, but i really dont see any way that marth comes out winning.

 

[Deleted member]

I am so glad that everyone talking about buffing Sing isn't in the PMBR, I don't think any idea is worse than that

Sing is arguably one of the most useless moves in all of Smash despite being the "signature" move of a character, a character with a crappy design and lots of crappy moves I should add. I don't see why you think giving this move some use would be a bad thing. We also already have two characters who possess, for all intents and purposes, superior versions of Sing - Mewtwo and Snake, and in neither case is the move considered overpowered.

I think it's sad that Jigglypuff is destined to be such a boring, uninspired character because of people who are too scared/stubborn to see her change. She's a blemish on an otherwise creative and well designed game.

 

[BluntedMask]

Charizard has a very hard time getting back after getting thrown up by marth. Being a some what floaty character with huge ass hurtboxes he has a bit more trouble landing.

While charizard can outspace marth and has a dumb punish game on him, marth can also do the same thing.

If anything the match up is even as they both have strong points about them.

 

[Oracle]

But nair tho

 

[JOE!]

But nair tho

I *have* found that commonly good Marth stages actually favor Zard in that MU since Zard can threaten from above platforms in a manner similar to marth below them

 

[Scuba Steve]

Sing is arguably one of the most useless moves in all of Smash despite being the "signature" move of a character, a character with a crappy design and lots of crappy moves I should add. I don't see why you think giving this move some use would be a bad thing. We also already have two characters who possess, for all intents and purposes, superior versions of Sing - Mewtwo and Snake, and in neither case is the move considered overpowered.

I think it's sad that Jigglypuff is destined to be such a boring, uninspired character because of people who are too scared/stubborn to see her change. She's a blemish on an otherwise creative and well designed game.

I think nobody complains about the tranq and stuff because those characters don't have rest.

 

[BluntedMask]

Nair, the solution to all problems in this world.

 

[Strong Badam]

How many of you *actually* play Marth? Jesus you people are real depressed about his MU's.

doesn't help that his players are also depressed about his MUs lmfao

 

[Ace55]

Sing is arguably one of the most useless moves in all of Smash despite being the "signature" move of a character, a character with a crappy design and lots of crappy moves I should add. I don't see why you think giving this move some use would be a bad thing. We also already have two characters who possess, for all intents and purposes, superior versions of Sing - Mewtwo and Snake, and in neither case is the move considered overpowered.

I think it's sad that Jigglypuff is destined to be such a boring, uninspired character because of people who are too scared/stubborn to see her change. She's a blemish on an otherwise creative and well designed game.

Dude, she has a one hit KO move... Of all the characters you really shouldn't give a 'free hit' move I think she tops my list.

Imo sing -> rest being a common thing would be a blemish on an otherwise creative and well designed game.