Tier List Speculation

[OkamiBW]

Stomp knee at certain percents is guaranteed. Throws to stuff is also guaranteed.

 

[Overswarm]

Stomp knee at certain percents is guaranteed. Throws to stuff is also guaranteed.

Throws do not have smash DI, jabs have limited SDI.

 

[Kink-Link5]

From what I've visibly seen (from Prof and some of the UK) is that Snake seems to have the closest shot at beating Sheik from the newcomer set.

It's really hard to say that as a blanket term since his Snake is like, leagues above entire players regardless of character, but regarding what is shown as top level play with indevidual characters, yes, Prof.'s success does seem to indicate having even or advantageous matchups with most of the cast.

 

[Spiffykins]

It's really hard to say that as a blanket term since his Snake is like, leagues above entire players regardless of character, but regarding what is shown as top level play with indevidual characters, yes, Prof.'s success does seem to indicate having even or advantageous matchups with most of the cast.

People will catch up with Prof...eventually. I'm calling it now, Snake's a sleeper top tier.

 

[Dabuz]

What's the consensus on ZSS compared to the rest of the cast?

 

[OkamiBW]

Throws do not have smash DI, jabs have limited SDI.

I was just saying true combos. Btw, Mewtwo's F-throw in Melee has smash DI. So does Falco's U-throw in both games.

 

[Overswarm]

I was just saying true combos. Btw, Mewtwo's F-throw in Melee has smash DI. So does Falco's U-throw in both games.

They do not have SDI; the projectiles they hit you with do. Important distinction.

 

[Hylian]

They do not have SDI; the projectiles they hit you with do. Important distinction.

I believe you can smash DI puffs dthrow in melee as well.

 

[MonkUnit]

I think it's actually puff's fthrow not dthrow

 

[Hylian]

I think it's actually puff's fthrow not dthrow

Could be, I remember either her fthrow or dthrow though.

 

[Overswarm]

It was her f-throw. I forget what made it happen that way, there was something unique about it. Been way too long to remember. Doubt it still exists in P:M.

 

[Oro?!]

What's the consensus on ZSS compared to the rest of the cast?

Viable with some very hard matchups based on how everyone rates her.

 

[DMG]

Based on the survey, I'd rate her C tier

 

[Oro?!]

I rated her C as well.

 

[Rat]

I'd give her the D.


/10Couldn'tResists

 

[outofphase]

alot of people arent into zss, but i think shes underrated. id probably consider myself a zss main and id say shes somewhere around the back end of high tier-front end of mid tier. i believe shes got solid spacing tools, decent to good recovery, great mobility and tech chasing, great combo ability, high reward for hard reads, solid finishers in bair/fair and to a lesser degree fsmash, BRUTAL edgeguarding, and she can use low plats for extremely safe damage very well with usmash/up b/backside nair/uair. i dont think she has any truly awful matchups (maybe peach/diddy). she suffers on certain stages though. her main weaknesses are a mediocre projectile, horrific grab (despite her good throws), and outside of fsmash she doesnt have any legitimately powerful attacks. all bad weaknesses, but all able to be played around for the most part. leffen is probably the best zss, and he told me he thought she was mid-low tier in stream chat a few weeks back. take that as you will though lol.

oh and shes amazingly fun to play. her combo game rewards creativity like no other character imo.

 

[DMG]

mid-low tier?

SOUNDS LIKE C TIER

 

[Oro?!]

>Quote Leffen
>Ignore other ZSS main who has same opinions

Well done @outofphase

 

[DMG]

ZSS is underrated! I trust Leffen on this one, and what he says sounds like C tier

lol

 

[outofphase]

>Quote Leffen
>Ignore other ZSS main who has same opinions

Well done @outofphase

>tell somebody what notable zss player thinks
>dont feel the need to reiterate a post from 1 page ago that was surely read
>get internet *** to go out of his way to find fault in it
>tell him nobody likes sarcastic pricks
>he gets all righteous about it
>if not for this line he goes on wikipedia because he needs the internet to compliment his very incomplete knowledge of rhetoric
>he now has limited options and probably "takes the high road" in some regard
>he feels satisfied about the result of an internet quarrel
>i call him a *** again

***

 

[Muhti]

Question:

How come Luigi is low tier and Mario is high tier despite their similarities? I see that they are different in some respects, but still...

Really?

They were very similar in Melee (same tier) and now they're so far apart. And if PM is an identical (or at least something very close to it) to Melee, why isn't Mario and Luigi that much similar? Can somebody explain?

Note: Im not so technical with all the frames, the hit boxes, etc. so please help a semi-noobie out.

 

[Translucent]

Lugi floats and slides a bunch. Mario has more kill options, better ground options, and a cape.

 

[DMG]

Mario got better buffs and has better MU's.

They took the best of both worlds for Mario and Doctor Mario. He can kill with Fair now, which is noticeable because Mario normally wouldn't manage such strong hits on floaties out of Dthrow/combos. His recovery got buffed, Dair feels very solid now, jab game seems improved too.

Luigi is much closer to his Melee self, fewer overall buffs besides recovery.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Question:

How come Luigi is low tier and Mario is high tier despite their similarities? I see that they are different in some respects, but still...

Really?

They were very similar in Melee (same tier) and now they're so far apart. And if PM is an identical (or at least something very close to it) to Melee, why isn't Mario and Luigi that much similar? Can somebody explain?

Note: Im not so technical with all the frames, the hit boxes, etc. so please help a semi-noobie out.

The bad Melee characters were given all sorts of changes, and Mario's appear to be much more useful in general than Luigi's (partly because he got some of the best parts of Doctor Mario and some of the best parts of Melee Mario). Mario's air options are significantly more effective for spacing and going in.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Where do Pika and Squirtle stand in all this teir list business? Squirtle has some noticeable downfalls, but also some really powerful moves. Pika seems like more of a mediocre character, recovery is meh and it really can't do much on stage or in the air to make up for it. Other than thunder and dsmash combos, but that may be just how I play/who I play against.

 

[DMG]

Squirtle doesn't really scream power, outside of Usmash and Dthrow. Hitting with Fsmash, or killing with Dsmash, is too unreliable.

Pikachu seems ok. Not impressive, there's still room to see what people can do with QAC.

 

[Jandlebars]

I concur on what DMG said about both Pika and Squirtle, though I believe rather firmly that Squirtle has a lot of potential, especially compared to Pikachu.
There's an abundance of stuff you can do with Squirt's pivoting shenanigans (Shell Shifting and Hydroplaning), and, while a light hitter overall, is very effective at being offensive without committing a great deal to every attack.
Pika has QAC, which is a technique that every Pika main should learn to implement in some way, but he seems to have trouble approaching through other means, and, as otehrs have said before, his air-game is average at best.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Luigi is much closer to his Melee self, fewer overall buffs besides recovery.

Luigi's most important buff is probably his quicker ending fireball. He can waveland after it out of a shorthop, seems like it will be fantastic for stage control... if there were even any luigi mains playing this...

 

[Muhti]

Luigi's most important buff is probably his quicker ending fireball. He can waveland after it out of a shorthop, seems like it will be fantastic for stage control... if there were even any luigi mains playing this...

I am, Im trying to get the basics down first though, spacing and what not.

 

[DMG]

Nope. Misfire changes are the best thing he got hands down. Undeniable. Tying in with that is his better recovery/easier to work with. Fireball change is relatively minor.

 

[Oro?!]

Not having to charge downb is also a huge buff

 

[Juushichi]

SH WL fireball (approach), not having to charge down-B (recovery), holdable side-B (both + killing). All three of these are good.

Luigi's grab game seems much, much improved in this game, though. That's one of the things I don't think many people are talking about.

 

[DMG]

How so? I was under the impression his throws were exactly like Melee. Does he have improved IASA frames/less cooldown? Because literally the throw angles and distance seem veryyyyy close if not exactly like Melee. He had follow ups from Uthrow and Dthrow in Melee, but it was much harder when the person DI'd away from Luigi. Uthrow and Dthrow both naturally send the person behind Luigi, so you could just DI behind him and get carried away.

 

[Juushichi]

I wouldn't know, it just feels like he can easily react and get followups on a lot of characters. Like he probably takes about half of Squirtle's stock off of one grab.

 

[DMG]

Well Squirtle is a light weight, would make sense. Still, with DI away most people avoid the nastier options and tends to limit how much he gets out of it. The exception being fast fallers on Uthrow, since you can wavedash over to follow up.

 

[Oracle]

Luigi's downthrow is incredible for followups. In melee, he's one of the only characters who can decently punish peach and puff out of a grab because dthrow-fair is guaranteed vs. them. If they DI away, you can wavedash a downsmash, ftilt, utilt, or go for a regrab. Just about every other DI option gets upsmashed or sh naired.

 

[Juushichi]

Yeah, I've been hit by wd dsmash on down and away with heavier characters.

I really enjoy Luigi's grab game. It feels better than Mario's.

It's just attached to Luigi.

 

[DMG]

I dunno about that. Mario's grab game is pretty damn amazing, pretty easy to CG with and easier to follow up on.

 

[Overswarm]

Mario's grab game results in grab to grab, hit, thrown far off stage, or tech chase nearly 100% of the time. It's pretty much what you'd consider a top tier grab game.

His grab range however...

 

[DMG]

Can't be perfect