Tier List Speculation

[Spiffykins]

Depends. It wouldn't be a stretch to think CCing might ruin his current moveset. I can just imagine you go to Fair someone and they CC all 3 hits and then punish you. Dtilt and Ftilt would probably have to worry about that as well.

Are they keeping dtilt's chance to trip, and if so could they still trip if they CC?

 

[Archangel]

The astonishing thing about that?

It's still better than Marth's.

What's even more astonishing is how every time you make a post you prove just how little you know or understand the reality of competitive smash. Why would DDD have better recovery? extra jumps?...tell me how big of a factor does that play when you are being edge guarded by someone with a functioning brain? One of the most important aspects of this game is speed. DDD is slow, Bulky, and easy target. Doesn't matter if he has 10 jumps, He's so easy to kill from an off stage position even his extra jumps don't make up for it. Marth on the other hand has an extremely fast Up-B. Though it's more limited if you use Side-B/the new ability to grab ledge backwards I'd say it's obvious who's easier to kill and who's not.

 

[DMG]

Eh... it all depends. The actual distance Dedede can recover from is pretty solid, and he can attempt to recover higher with multiple jumps/quicker Upbs. The comparison of the two characters recovering from below the stage is definitely in Marth's favor though. The speed, not having a hitbox/super armor, it all points to Marth being better.

Dedede arguably can cover himself offstage better if he is forced to because the multi jumps give him some leeway if he needs to back up/use an attack for a second. The speed of Fair isn't comparable, but you can do some nifty things like fast falling to avoid them and still make it back to the stage which is VERY unlikely for Marth to be able to do in the same spot.

 

[Vashimus]

Leave Kink alone. It's fine to disagree, but insulting is not cool.

Now that I think about it, why the **** are we comparing DDD to Marth in the first place? To prove Marth is better? Like we didn't already know that?

 

[Aenglaan]

It's true though that Puff has a little more trouble in adapting than Sheik with some of the new changes made in PM.

I'd argue that's an understatement. While she can still pull off the wall of pain, characters with solid range (Bowser, Ike) can handle her pretty well. I really find it strange that Jiggilypuff still manages to be placed as high as she is by players.

Sheik, on the other hand, is just as brutal as she was in Melee.

 

[Vashimus]

I feel Jiggs goes even with a lot of the cast now. Especially with Ike and Sonic.

 

[Archangel]

Leave Kink alone. It's fine to disagree, but insulting is not cool.

Now that I think about it, why the **** are we comparing DDD to Marth in the first place? To prove Marth is better? Like we didn't already know that?

Good point...I'll try to avoid taking things personal....It's just...I've got some solid time in with Marth over the past few years and I've been exploring DDD as an alot(nobody has fun playing vs pit for long btw ) SO...DDD was one of the guys I've tried out...so far The greatest thing I found was Jump-Toss Minion upward diagnally in front of you-air dodge into it for a Air waddle Dee glide through the sky. It's fun...it really is. I thought it would fix the Issue of getting back because of how fast it is and sometimes it can...but once it's been seen a few times people figure out a way to shut it down and then..it's back to square 1.

anyways....we all know marth is overall better than DDD so **** that debate.


@ Puff....I think puff was ****ed more than any of the returning top 8 melee characters so far. She's got way to many close match-ups and even more campy counters now.

 

[OPTKeyo]

I was actually kinda surprised that Puff was put in 7th place rather than somewhere much higher. She might be even with more characters now, but it's only a matter of time before players figure out how to play against them as Puff. Although, I might just be biased because I play Puff and I don't want her to drop in the tier list so much haha.

Also, I feel like Ivysaur should be much higher on the list. She has nice projectiles, the new property of whips grabbing the edge, crazy range, combos that help power up Solar Beam, dair and uair help air mobility while recovering, and vine whip setups that kill at pretty low damage. She's quite the pain to fight against!

 

[Spiffykins]

I was actually kinda surprised that Puff was put in 7th place rather than somewhere much higher. She might be even with more characters now, but it's only a matter of time before players figure out how to play against them as Puff. Although, I might just be biased because I play Puff and I don't want her to drop in the tier list so much haha.

Also, I feel like Ivysaur should be much higher on the list. She has nice projectiles, the new property of whips grabbing the edge, crazy range, combos that help power up Solar Beam, dair and uair help air mobility while recovering, and vine whip setups that kill at pretty low damage. She's quite the pain to fight against!

I doubt she's higher than mid-tier at the moment. Faster characters that can contend with her range are her biggest problem. She likes to camp but she's slow, floaty, and can't keep a lot of the cast out indefinitely. Her recovery is decent but generally easy to edgeguard, even with the tether. I think she's got great potential in doubles (zoning, stock tanking, more opportunities to charge solarbeam, vulnerable recovery is less detrimental) but on her own I don't find her very impressive.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Once people realize and capitalize on Ivysaur's weaknesses, she'll undeniably be on the lower end of the list.

 

[DMG]

^^^

Your avatar is amazing ILY

And Ivy is poo

 

[OPTKeyo]

Dang, I guess not many people find Ivysaur to be as good as I do lol. I suppose that just means I'm not very good at going up against her then!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Dang, I guess not many people find Ivysaur to be as good as I do lol. I suppose that just means I'm not very good at going up against her then!

She has really useful stuff, really easy-to-beat stuff, and bad stuff disguised as good stuff. Her moveset is rather polarized like that, and she has many weaknesses that really limit her a great deal against a high volume of the cast, I think.

What do you think are the most important factors that make her a great character?

 

[Vashimus]

I was about to ask you the opposite, Reflex.

 

[Overswarm]

Dang, I guess not many people find Ivysaur to be as good as I do lol. I suppose that just means I'm not very good at going up against her then!

I like her a lot and she can do some really cool stuff, but what most matchups come down to is how well the characters do when in a neutral situation. Ivysaur can do fine when she gets an advantage, but no better than others.

When in a neutral situation though, fast characters that can get inside can really mess her up. If you can avoid the over-b/jab/d-tilt/retreating fair stuff and get a grab or a solid hit in you can often prevent her trap game for that stock.

 

[OkamiBW]

I finally now officially think D3 isn't bottom. Perhaps #20 or so. Cause I played the best Dedede player again.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was about to ask you the opposite, Reflex.

Jab, D-Tilt, F-Tilt, N-Air, F-Air, and B-Air can all be crouch-canceled until middling percents and there isn't much of a beneficial dynamic between F-Air and B-Air (in Brawl, B-Air was fast and safe with little reward, while F-Air was noticeably more powerful and riskier). Forward-B isn't good for anything but edgeguarding and VERY specific space control, because virtually any move will clank with it, leaving the opponent in neutral position before Ivysaur has any chance of capitalizing on it. Her grab is incredibly low to the ground as well as slow, and virtually all of her grounded space control options hit low, so opponents' N-Airplane or something similar can get in with little trouble.

She has no way to safely get in on any good projectile, so she's forced to clank with/avoid them and camp with Neutral-B, which is only viable on certain stages (you need space and platforms). Down-B has very exploitable cooldown relatively easy to clank out with most characters' aerials (either a N-Air, a F-Air, or a D-Air) or any ground move, preventing it from being very useful outside of ending combos and the occasional getting back to the stage from getting straight up.

Her best KO options depend on a 50/50 throw mix-up that depends on an unreliable grab. Her best combo option, N-Air, hits people away upon landing mid-move and is SDI-able down into a crouch-cancel with little trouble. Her out-of-shield game is weak (N-Air and U-Smash aren't so great against tight shield pressure) and she's not good at dealing a lot of damage at once without relying on bad DI or opponents shielding Forward-B (which they should never have to do).

She's obnoxiously good at edgeguarding, as shuffled F-Air hits any and all sweetspots, and her other attacks work really well for disrupting people offstage. She just really, really struggles getting people offstage in the first place.

 

[OPTKeyo]

She has really useful stuff, really easy-to-beat stuff, and bad stuff disguised as good stuff. Her moveset is rather polarized like that, and she has many weaknesses that really limit her a great deal against a high volume of the cast, I think.

What do you think are the most important factors that make her a great character?

I personally feel like Ivysaur's space control and keep away is really good. Stunspore covers high vertical space and also falls back down (and it might even stun opponents!), Razor Leaf's new multi-hitting, push back property is pretty annoying, Solar Beam and Vine Whip, although a little more risky to use, hits diagonally, and her bair is quick, has good range, and decent knockback.

 

[OkamiBW]

Ivysaur gets hardcore wrecked by Sheik, TL, and Marth, so I'm biased in thinking she's not that great of a character. :/

 

[Tmacc]

You aren't playing Ivysaur right if you aren't using dtilt, like, always.

 

[GunBlaze]

You aren't playing Ivysaur right if you aren't using dtilt, like, always.

This man knows his stuff

 

[Scythe]

her dtilt is kinda useless when you are playing against people who crouch cancel

 

[9Kplus1]

I finally now officially think D3 isn't bottom. Perhaps #20 or so. Cause I played the best Dedede player again.

I don't recall taking a trip to CA

and lol @ that DDD discussion. Taking DDD's more notable traits and comparing them to characters which are generally recognized as tournament viable isn't the way to go when attempting to understand, let alone 'rank' him.

 

[Oro?!]

Once people learn ancient tether edgeguard techniques people will think she is even worse LOL.

 

[DMG]

Mhm. Or when people don't get grabbed after Razor Leaf... Stahp

 

[Overswarm]

Yeah, it's gotten to the point to where ivysaur dies when she has to up+b off stage or, at best, she just gets thrown off again and it gets put back in the loop.


I like Ivysaur and it's a unique character but its flaws outweigh its strengths. Ivysaur reminds me of a worse Olimar, just way way cooler.

 

[Juushichi]

Except olimar would probably have CC usmash.

 

[OkamiBW]

I don't recall taking a trip to CA

and lol @ that DDD discussion. Taking DDD's more notable traits and comparing them to characters which are generally recognized as tournament viable isn't the way to go when attempting to understand, let alone 'rank' him.

Dang 9K, are you on any mushrooms? Like Amanita Muscaria ones?

Spoiler

Nah, jk, you seem pretty Fly.

 

[Oro?!]

You are too punny Okami, stahp pls.

 

[Hylian]

Man I like...completely disagree with all of you about Ivysaur and think you're all crazy lol. CCing dtilt does nothing because of this strange concept called spacing. Ivy has to be one of the hardest characters to edgeguard, has one of the best approaches, and one of the best combo games/edgeguarding >_>. I think she has problems with pressure though against a lot of characters she is beast.

 

[Scythe]

any character that can go off stage with a spike and survive can edgeguard ivy easily

 

[Overswarm]

Man I like...completely disagree with all of you about Ivysaur and think you're all crazy lol. CCing dtilt does nothing because of this strange concept called spacing. Ivy has to be one of the hardest characters to edgeguard, has one of the best approaches, and one of the best combo games/edgeguarding >_>. I think she has problems with pressure though against a lot of characters she is beast.

She is a beast against a lot of characters, but her inability to deal with a select few is pretty disheartening.

CCing d-tilt is amazingly effective though. "Spacing" doesn't work anymore than saying "oh we just don't get hit to deal with that attack". How do you see Ivysaur dealing with a CC'd d-tilt? At the edge of the d-tilt you don't have enough time for another one, so all you can do is lose space, approach, or do something like a jab or grab which can end poorly. Not seeing it.

 

[Hylian]

She is a beast against a lot of characters, but her inability to deal with a select few is pretty disheartening.

CCing d-tilt is amazingly effective though. "Spacing" doesn't work anymore than saying "oh we just don't get hit to deal with that attack". How do you see Ivysaur dealing with a CC'd d-tilt? At the edge of the d-tilt you don't have enough time for another one, so all you can do is lose space, approach, or do something like a jab or grab which can end poorly. Not seeing it.

The tip of her dtilt knocks characters over pretty fast when CCing, as long as you aren't doing it under like 10% it's usually safe and gives you an advantage when spacing it well regardless of it they CC'ed it or not.


Scythe play me at the chicago tournament and then see if you still agree with that.

 

[Vashimus]

Hylian plays Saur?

Is it solid?

 

[Scythe]

The tip of her dtilt knocks characters over pretty fast when CCing, as long as you aren't doing it under like 10% it's usually safe and gives you an advantage when spacing it well regardless of it they CC'ed it or not.


Scythe play me at the chicago tournament and then see if you still agree with that.

let's do ti!!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If you're expecting to hit the sweetspot of D-Tilt every time, the opponent is inexperienced against Ivysaur.. Why aren't they dashdancing or staying just outside of your range or using their superior projectile?

 

[Silly Kyle]

Ivysaur is free

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Rj7RrtsBiUE#t=902s

 

[Overswarm]

Or just, ya know, jumping.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yeah, Ivysaur has traditionally struggled with opponents who can use shorthop aerials really well, and PM is no different.

 

[Vashimus]

Falcon has field days with Ivy.

Fire field days....