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Tier List Speculation

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
Administrator
BRoomer
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Sep 9, 2004
Messages
23,165
Location
Missouri
Switch FC
2687-7494-5103
Hylian plays Saur?

Is it solid?
Honestly Ivy is probably my best character.

If you're expecting to hit the sweetspot of D-Tilt every time, the opponent is inexperienced against Ivysaur.. Why aren't they dashdancing or staying just outside of your range or using their superior projectile?
Or just, ya know, jumping.
I think I'm playing different than you guys or something. I use side-b mix-ups(slow/fast) fairly high to threaten jumping and mix up dtilt/grab from those approaches. That alone catches most people often while I stay pretty safe and lets me condition people into stuff I can read pretty easily.

I also combo so that it heals me a ton, I heal generally around 100-200% a match.

I do agree though that Ivy has a lot of trouble against fast pressure characters though which can be frustrating.
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
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Atlanta, GA
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3DS FC
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I think I'm playing different than you guys or something. I use side-b mix-ups(slow/fast) fairly high to threaten jumping and mix up dtilt/grab from those approaches. That alone catches most people often while I stay pretty safe and lets me condition people into stuff I can read pretty easily.

I also combo so that it heals me a ton, I heal generally around 100-200% a match.

I do agree though that Ivy has a lot of trouble against fast pressure characters though which can be frustrating.
I think the people you're playing just don't know how to fight Ivysaur, then. Forward-B is beaten fairly easily with an aerial or just moving backward. You can't reasonably follow up on a fast Forward-B, so that's just an annoyance. An aggressive shorthop aerial beats all of those options and should be making you think twice about using them. Dashdancing puts Ivysaur in an awful spot as she doesn't really have anything to safely disrupt it. None of those options adequately cover a range of space around you and should leave holes in your defense.

There is absolutely no reason you should be able to heal anywhere close to 200%. I'm convinced your opponents aren't even trying to avoid you, in that case. :/
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Anything above 50% is pretty crazy. I mean against fast fallers you can get a u-smash/u-air/u-air combo if they aren't DIing I guess and have some neutral B stuff saved up, but 200%?

Agree with Reflex on the "don't know how to fight ivysaur" thing. You just hit the over-b out of existence and then kill Ivysaur or simply move away from it. She has no legitimate followups to any of her over-b moves at range (you can't grab out of a slow over-b unless tehy are right on top of you or just don't jump out of it) and if you're close enough to have legitimate followups to the slow one then they can just dodge normally and hit you. They can be useful to make them jump so you can run under them and attempt to start something, but still.

I don't play Ivy exclusively but I play against her a lot and she's been one of the easier characters to edgeguard and avoid. She's so endangered by pressure that aggressively rolling towards her can put her in a bad spot that requires evasive maneuvers.

Do you have any videos of your Ivy? I could just be completely wrong as I only have a small sampling pool to look at Ivy from. I just had a week long experience of "Whoa, that's awesome!" follow into "...oh, you can just hold up to DI out of her nair and then punish" / "oh CC everything then punish" / "oh, just hit her when she's off stage", etc., etc. that made me lose a lot of faith in the character.
 

Rat

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 20, 2005
Messages
1,870
Location
Chicago
Rat's 2.5b Tier List!
Chest Hair Tier
:ganondorf:
:snake:
:falcon:

Hates Fun Tier
:sonic:
:charizard:
:pit:

Presses Buttons Tier
:fox:
:lucario:
:wolf:

No Effort Tier
:bowser2:
:sheik:
:falco:

Unique Snowflake/Pony Tier
:zelda:
:dk2:
:peach:

Space Animal Wannabe Tier
:lucas:
:pikachu2:
:mario2:

Boob Tier
:zerosuitsamus:
:ivysaur:
:wario:

Neighborhood Champion Tier
:link2:
:luigi2:
:ike:

Having a Good Time Tier
:squirtle:
:dedede:
:diddy:
:ness2:

Hitboxes Tier
:gw:
:jigglypuff:
:rob:
:toonlink:



Let me know you think.

Edit: Switched Fox and Falco. Now fox is presses button and falco is no effort.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Luigi is not Neighborhood champion. How could he be when Mario is always better?
 

CountOlaf

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 21, 2012
Messages
35
Location
Maryland
I'd argue that's an understatement. While she can still pull off the wall of pain, characters with solid range (Bowser, Ike) can handle her pretty well. I really find it strange that Jiggilypuff still manages to be placed as high as she is by players.

Sheik, on the other hand, is just as brutal as she was in Melee.
To be fair, most of the Jigglypuff players are incredibly good, and I'm not surprised that someone like Hungrybox could transition easily to Project M.
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
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To be fair, most of the Jigglypuff players are incredibly good, and I'm not surprised that someone like Hungrybox could transition easily to Project M.
After all, Jigglypuff players only needs to keep up with something like four individual moves and the shorthop space the whole fight. :smirk:
 

Virum

Smash Ace
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Jun 1, 2010
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London, England
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SiLeNtDo0m
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Rat's 2.5b Tier List!
Chest Hair Tier
:ganondorf:
:snake:
:falcon:

Hates Fun Tier
:sonic:
:charizard:
:pit:

Presses Buttons Tier
:falco:
:lucario:
:wolf:

No Effort Tier
:bowser2:
:sheik:
:fox:

Unique Snowflake/Pony Tier
:zelda:
:dk2:
:peach:

Space Animal Wannabe Tier
:lucas:
:pikachu2:
:mario2:

Boob Tier
:zerosuitsamus:
:ivysaur:
:wario:

Neighborhood Champion Tier
:link2:
:luigi2:
:ike:

Having a Good Time Tier
:squirtle:
:dedede:
:diddy:
:ness2:

Hitboxes Tier
:gw:
:jigglypuff:
:rob:
:toonlink:



Let me know you think.
Most legit list ever constructed. This is what all tier lists should strive to become.
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
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Dec 4, 2008
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Location
Wilmington, Delaware
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combat22386
Falcon has field days with Ivy.

Fire field days.... :troll:

:phone:
OMG I FREAKING LOVE THIS GUY!...dude...send me an friend invite...lets be friends...seriously do it.

Rat's 2.5b Tier List!
Chest Hair Tier
:ganondorf:
:snake:
:falcon:

Hates Fun Tier
:sonic:
:charizard:
:pit:

Presses Buttons Tier
:falco:
:lucario:
:wolf:

No Effort Tier
:bowser2:
:sheik:
:fox:

Unique Snowflake/Pony Tier
:zelda:
:dk2:
:peach:

Space Animal Wannabe Tier
:lucas:
:pikachu2:
:mario2:

Boob Tier
:zerosuitsamus:
:ivysaur:
:wario:

Neighborhood Champion Tier
:link2:
:luigi2:
:ike:

Having a Good Time Tier
:squirtle:
:dedede:
:diddy:
:ness2:

Hitboxes Tier
:gw:
:jigglypuff:
:rob:
:toonlink:



Let me know you think.
I died at hates fun tier.
 

CountOlaf

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jan 21, 2012
Messages
35
Location
Maryland
Rat's 2.5b Tier List!
Chest Hair Tier
:ganondorf:
:snake:
:falcon:

Hates Fun Tier
:sonic:
:charizard:
:pit:

Presses Buttons Tier
:falco:
:lucario:
:wolf:

No Effort Tier
:bowser2:
:sheik:
:fox:

Unique Snowflake/Pony Tier
:zelda:
:dk2:
:peach:

Space Animal Wannabe Tier
:lucas:
:pikachu2:
:mario2:

Boob Tier
:zerosuitsamus:
:ivysaur:
:wario:

Neighborhood Champion Tier
:link2:
:luigi2:
:ike:

Having a Good Time Tier
:squirtle:
:dedede:
:diddy:
:ness2:

Hitboxes Tier
:gw:
:jigglypuff:
:rob:
:toonlink:



Let me know you think.
Puff for hates fun tier.
 

Spiffykins

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 31, 2012
Messages
547
Rat's 2.5b Tier List!
Chest Hair Tier
:ganondorf:
:snake:
:falcon:

Hates Fun Tier
:sonic:
:charizard:
:pit:

Presses Buttons Tier
:falco:
:lucario:
:wolf:

No Effort Tier
:bowser2:
:sheik:
:fox:

Unique Snowflake/Pony Tier
:zelda:
:dk2:
:peach:

Space Animal Wannabe Tier
:lucas:
:pikachu2:
:mario2:

Boob Tier
:zerosuitsamus:
:ivysaur:
:wario:

Neighborhood Champion Tier
:link2:
:luigi2:
:ike:

Having a Good Time Tier
:squirtle:
:dedede:
:diddy:
:ness2:

Hitboxes Tier
:gw:
:jigglypuff:
:rob:
:toonlink:



Let me know you think.
Since when do Lucario and Wolf have less chest hair than Ganon, Snake, or Falcon?
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
Administrator
BRoomer
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Messages
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I think the people you're playing just don't know how to fight Ivysaur, then. Forward-B is beaten fairly easily with an aerial or just moving backward. You can't reasonably follow up on a fast Forward-B, so that's just an annoyance. An aggressive shorthop aerial beats all of those options and should be making you think twice about using them. Dashdancing puts Ivysaur in an awful spot as she doesn't really have anything to safely disrupt it. None of those options adequately cover a range of space around you and should leave holes in your defense.

There is absolutely no reason you should be able to heal anywhere close to 200%. I'm convinced your opponents aren't even trying to avoid you, in that case. :/
Anything above 50% is pretty crazy. I mean against fast fallers you can get a u-smash/u-air/u-air combo if they aren't DIing I guess and have some neutral B stuff saved up, but 200%?

Agree with Reflex on the "don't know how to fight ivysaur" thing. You just hit the over-b out of existence and then kill Ivysaur or simply move away from it. She has no legitimate followups to any of her over-b moves at range (you can't grab out of a slow over-b unless tehy are right on top of you or just don't jump out of it) and if you're close enough to have legitimate followups to the slow one then they can just dodge normally and hit you. They can be useful to make them jump so you can run under them and attempt to start something, but still.

I don't play Ivy exclusively but I play against her a lot and she's been one of the easier characters to edgeguard and avoid. She's so endangered by pressure that aggressively rolling towards her can put her in a bad spot that requires evasive maneuvers.

Do you have any videos of your Ivy? I could just be completely wrong as I only have a small sampling pool to look at Ivy from. I just had a week long experience of "Whoa, that's awesome!" follow into "...oh, you can just hold up to DI out of her nair and then punish" / "oh CC everything then punish" / "oh, just hit her when she's off stage", etc., etc. that made me lose a lot of faith in the character.
Meh. I'll get some videos against Sethlon when he comes up here in a few weeks as well as from the chicago tournament. The people I'm playing against probably aren't approaching the match-up right but we'll see.
 

9Kplus1

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 4, 2006
Messages
3,518
Location
Smogon (PM FC: 4256-7740-0627)
Rat's 2.5b Tier List!
Chest Hair Tier
:ganondorf:
:snake:
:falcon:

Hates Fun Tier
:sonic:
:charizard:
:pit:

Presses Buttons Tier
:fox:
:lucario:
:wolf:

No Effort Tier
:bowser2:
:sheik:
:falco:

Unique Snowflake/Pony Tier
:zelda:
:dk2:
:peach:

Space Animal Wannabe Tier
:lucas:
:pikachu2:
:mario2:

Boob Tier
:zerosuitsamus:
:ivysaur:
:wario:

Neighborhood Champion Tier
:link2:
:luigi2:
:ike:

Having a Good Time Tier
:squirtle:
:dedede:
:diddy:
:ness2:

Hitboxes Tier
:gw:
:jigglypuff:
:rob:
:toonlink:



Let me know you think.

Edit: Switched Fox and Falco. Now fox is presses button and falco is no effort.
DDD has noticeably larger boobs than Wario

Fix plz
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Anyone who mentions the "L" word is a furry
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Meh. I'll get some videos against Sethlon when he comes up here in a few weeks as well as from the chicago tournament. The people I'm playing against probably aren't approaching the match-up right but we'll see.
Well NO ONE is doing anything right at the moment in any of the new matchups. Even tournament finals videos have me shaking my head saying "really?" and watching my own replays I do the same thing. No one really "knows" enough and has enough concrete evidence to really do anything. I can consistently get or be in a position to get a d-throw to tech chase upsmash, upsmash, u-air, fair off stage, arrow/fair edgeguard to death vs. Fox at 0%, generally failing only because of my own personal failings. This could easily be something that another Pit player could see as an impossibility for Pit to do and never attempt it and just as easily be something another Fox player could view as an easy combo to get out of. We don't have a large enough sample size or history to really know.
 

cmart

Smash Lord
Joined
May 2, 2005
Messages
1,100
Location
Savage, MD
I think Overswarm has just explained why there's such huge region diversity in project M right now. And why no one has a legit tier list.
 

#HBC | Joker

Space Marine
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St. Clair Shores, Michigan
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HBCJoker
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1864-9780-3232
I always feel like a scrub when I watch replays of myself. I feel like I'm playing all legit and smart during the match, but if I watch it afterwards it's just like... wow, I suck. I thought I had good mind games until I realized that I was doing the same dash dance > wave dash > shffl'd aerial pattern on like, every approach.
 

Scythe

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2004
Messages
3,875
it's good to watch your matches afterwards and see where you are being predictable
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
I think Overswarm has just explained why there's such huge region diversity in project M right now. And why no one has a legit tier list.
Melee was established when I got there, but Brawl had the same regional diversity.

It generally goes like this:

A) A few top players emerge. Top players in low density regions will have higher flexibility in tiers (I played ROB and did well, which is a rarity enabled only by low population density) while those in high density regions will have less flexibility (thus you'd see things like MK and Snake in the East/West Coast first).

B) People watch these top players. "Easy" characters like Dedede are considered "broken" because of their ease of use. Simple "rules" to follow with low technical limitations means a mediocre player can immediately do better with that character. We will see a P:M backlash to characters such as Bowser, Sheik, Ike, and the like regardless of their tournament performance. People don't like to lose to people they consider "worse" and it's much easier to get a random f-smash with Ike or get a lucky fair with Bowser or Sheik than it is to do a full stage combo with Wolf.

C) The backlash will result in both an attempt at artificial limitations (Dedede can't standing chain grab, but he can regular chain grab, cuz we said so) and stage banning. The former often fails (although the Brawl community messed up a lot with that), but stage banning often succeeds. We're already seeing this based off of a false sense of entitlement that players have. They assume it's okay for their character to have a slight advantage as long as no character has a HUGE advantage and they attempt to whittle the stage list down as much as possible. This is generally a bad idea but it's hard to stop.

Expect backlash against the heavy hitters like Bowser/Ike first and killing at super low % with "random" attacks on Yoshi's Story, Green Hill Zone, etc. YStory will be safe because it was in Melee and people are suckers for tradition/nostalgia, but stages like Green Hill Zone and Wario Ware will have people griping about them. They will demand that the stages be removed and/or they get "multiple bans" so that they can ban all those types of stages themselves.

D) Tournaments start appearing with less unique results. No longer are the placements switching on a tournament by tournament basis with only a few consistent placers. At this point people start getting "their" placement. Characters start to be regarded as "good" or "bad" based off of tournament results rather than hearsay. People will say "Man, Mario is great" but then hear "Well then why hasn't he done, ya know, anything in a tournament?" and be forced to realize that Mario is at least lacking good players.

E) Legitimate tier lists start appearing and character selection starts drying up; fewer characters are "viable" now.

F) The mass transit from "bad" to "good" characters will result in a massive leap in knowledge on the already good characters. Those that were left behind will have an even farther gap to cross (think of Jigglypuff in Melee or Olimar in Brawl; it took forever for them to be respected characters because the metagame for them developed much slower with such a small playerbase).

G) The stage list will have another culling attempt, this time in a very odd way. People playing the "good" characters will realize that they do very poorly on certain stages or very well on others. They will ask for their "good" stages to be starters and their bad stages to be banned. They will have no idea that they are asking for this and simply equate their "odd" losses with poor stage design. People end up compromising towards middle-ground stages like Battlefield / Smashville totally unaware that the rest of the cast might not be good on those stages.

H) The stage list is culled drastically for a variety of reasons at this point and character selection is down to a much smaller pool. "Counterpick" characters start to show up at this point en masse, so you'll see things like Captain Falcon players with a pocket Mario to deal with Falco or something like that.

I) The first actual proper static tier lists are created that are more accurate past the first top tier.

So we have a ways to go.

I'm starting to like this overswarm guy.
It's because of the pit thing isn't it

I always feel like a scrub when I watch replays of myself. I feel like I'm playing all legit and smart during the match, but if I watch it afterwards it's just like... wow, I suck. I thought I had good mind games until I realized that I was doing the same dash dance > wave dash > shffl'd aerial pattern on like, every approach.
If you can do that then you're leaps ahead of many. If you realize your only approach is "tricking" the opponent into making himself vulnerable then either find new ways to trick or try learning cross-ups on their shield or the like.

Chances are if you're winning against a common opponent that you are learning your opponent rather than your character. Forcing yourself to do things that previously failed, such as attacking his shield, gives you more knowledge of what you can and cannot do.
 

Kink-Link5

Smash Hero
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Messages
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That's a heck of a slippery slope for a metagame that won't even get that long of a chance to develop at this point, overswarm. Agreed up until and including D.) though. People flock to tournament results without even understanding their context far too often.
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
Joined
Aug 9, 2006
Messages
6,697
Location
England
Loving the tier list, Rat.

edit: spiffy, I am assuming he is talking about Lucario.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
lol the one that says pit combo? well it's not what you call 100% guaranteed. It depends on DI as do most combos in the game.
Well they all require maneuvering based on DI, but what I mean is aside from SDI (which can get you out of most things) is is possible for Pit to d-throw someone, tech chase them properly and hit with a u-smash (I know up to hear is guaranteed), hit them with another u-smash, then fair them before they could jump out of it.

A good example would be Pit's d-throw / u-throw chaingrab on Fox. At around 50% you can CG with both throws, but DIing towards Pit moves you very little for one throw and a lot for the other (out of range) while d-throw has the exact opposite. As such, Pit has no actual CG on spacies with proper DI on the spacies part but he does have a mix-up game that could allow for some regrabs.

I just dunno if the people I'm hitting with the combo just don't know how to DI out of it yet or if it is just a guarantee. I haven't missed based on anything other than my own doing at this time.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
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Messages
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Waco
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DMG#931
I'll take a look at Pit and get back to you on some of his throws/what's avoidable.
 

OkamiBW

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
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Location
20 miles south of Irvine, SoCal
Well they all require maneuvering based on DI, but what I mean is aside from SDI (which can get you out of most things) is is possible for Pit to d-throw someone, tech chase them properly and hit with a u-smash (I know up to hear is guaranteed), hit them with another u-smash, then fair them before they could jump out of it.

A good example would be Pit's d-throw / u-throw chaingrab on Fox. At around 50% you can CG with both throws, but DIing towards Pit moves you very little for one throw and a lot for the other (out of range) while d-throw has the exact opposite. As such, Pit has no actual CG on spacies with proper DI on the spacies part but he does have a mix-up game that could allow for some regrabs.

I just dunno if the people I'm hitting with the combo just don't know how to DI out of it yet or if it is just a guarantee. I haven't missed based on anything other than my own doing at this time.
It sounds like substituting U-air in instead of F-air would give you a more guaranteed combo. Or perhaps you could do something with upward angled arrows!
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I've been testing sheik vs the new characters.

sheik vs DDD is hilarious. would recommend.
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
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Wilmington, Delaware
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Well they all require maneuvering based on DI, but what I mean is aside from SDI (which can get you out of most things) is is possible for Pit to d-throw someone, tech chase them properly and hit with a u-smash (I know up to hear is guaranteed), hit them with another u-smash, then fair them before they could jump out of it.
tech-chase into Usmash yeah, hit with another usmash after that is somewhat unlikely unless it's like...wolf at really low%. Otherwise most people are hit to far away by Usmash. However should you get 2 usmashes in a row then yeah you should be able to go for a fair after it.

A good example would be Pit's d-throw / u-throw chaingrab on Fox. At around 50% you can CG with both throws, but DIing towards Pit moves you very little for one throw and a lot for the other (out of range) while d-throw has the exact opposite. As such, Pit has no actual CG on spacies with proper DI on the spacies part but he does have a mix-up game that could allow for some regrabs.
True, Although he can do chain grabs on people who fall slightly slower like Tink and Lucas at lower %. He can also do Fair to regrabs.

I just dunno if the people I'm hitting with the combo just don't know how to DI out of it yet or if it is just a guarantee. I haven't missed based on anything other than my own doing at this time.
Some combos on a portion of the cast are true combos. Especially when it comes to aerials on big characters like Ganon and Bowser or characters with no air mobility like Snake...they kinda get ***** by combos regardless of DI so their best bet is Isai 101 don't get grabbed and don't get hit.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
Some combos on a portion of the cast are true combos. Especially when it comes to aerials on big characters like Ganon and Bowser or characters with no air mobility like Snake...they kinda get ***** by combos regardless of DI so their best bet is Isai 101 don't get grabbed and don't get hit.
Unless the mechanics have changed, I believe it is theoretically possible to SDI out of a jab to prevent a followup, let alone a standard attack. Humanly possible? I dunno, but we've seen some impressive things with double stick SDI that haven't been routinely copied.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_4hZpdb5FU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLp_7RNz1sg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Njj2NWYykHQ

And some examples of things we could do without technical limitations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvH-pFTBQVQ

And a Brawl video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lq2S4_EkN1w

What's interesting about the Brawl video is that sheik had to jump prior to SDIing because in Brawl you can't SDI down (no CCing D:) unless you are airborne. Project M doesn't technically have that problem as you can hold down on the control stick and then SDI to the left or right and cause a tech. You've probably seen people in Melee tech after a CC and then roll across the stage with her momentum, right?

Well, Project M doesn't keep your momentum from what I've seen. With the correct DI you can survive an attack at virtually any percentage. In practice this would never occur, but I've survived some crazy stuff already.

There are no "true combos", just ones that can be considered "true combos" for all intents and purposes. Hell, Falco's dair to shine isn't a "true combo" even in the human sense and it's still a staple.

Sheik IS GOODODODODODODODOD
Incredibly so. The only character I've seen in the game so far that received no new BAD matchups from the changes. She's still awesome and her faster down throw is great for doubles play AND none of the new characters can lay a finger on her. Spacies are still her only threat. After hearing Umbreon mention her crawl doing well on stages with slopes and dips I started implementing it and boost grabbing out of a crawl is incredibly powerful. You can punish at some crazy distance with Sheik.

Also, her needles will now hit Fox if he's spamming lasers against your full needle count! Pretty sure anyway, only did it a few times mid-match and noticed I was hitting Fox instead of Fox killing my needles with his lasers like in Melee. :B

Might change with ICs coming in, but ya never know.
 

Hashtag

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 13, 2010
Messages
151
Location
AZ
Lucario is the only new character I've seen that can match sheik. Still in sheik's favor I believe, but not by much. The rest of the newcommers get wrecked by her.

:phone:
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
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Location
Columbus, Ohio
From what I've visibly seen (from Prof and some of the UK) is that Snake seems to have the closest shot at beating Sheik from the newcomer set.
 
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