Tier List Speculation

[Overswarm]

 

[Kink-Link5]

Something ie. everything strikes me as odd about saying "one of ZSS's weaknesses is that she has a bad projectile."

 

[outofphase]

how so? its certainly not a terrible weakness, but it hurts against characters with better/more spammable projectiles and gives her a hard time in neutral against alot of them. it swings matchups in their favor and hurts her viability imo. why its bad? well for it to have any significant impact/even go as far as others it requires a charge, making it rather slow. even if you force an opponent into their sheild, she doesnt have great shield pressure and her grab is always a risk simply because of its ending lag. imo it can be useful in setting traps, but not much else, and not in alot of situations. it obviously helps more against certain characters, but she ends up basically not having a projectile against others. its not a bad weakness because she has the tools to deal without it, but i think it creates alot of problems for her against characters like falco, fox, diddy, mario, and to a lesser degree peach and pit (though im starting to think zss has a better peach mu than i thought). although i admit i am basing this off theory more than practice when it comes to all the non spacies.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Because it's not a weakness. Marth has no projectile and is just fine as a character.

Lack of a projectile is not a character weakness. Having a "bad projectile" is not a character weakness. The fact that she has one at all, and one that frame traps as well as grants her 100% true combos should be good enough as traits. **** the fact that the move hits form across the stage should be a good enough trait.

Moves having no hitbox is a weakness

Moves taking 16 frames to start up is a weakness

Characters having no options dealing with an angle of approach is a weakness

Moves being -19 on block and having 50 frames of end lag are weaknesses

There is nothing inherently flawed to "lacking a projectile" or having a bad one that isn't better explained by examining actual character weaknesses.

[collapse=Bunni's 2.5b list version 1.5]A Class
Top Tier
1. Fox
2. Zelda/Sheik
3. Falco
4. Jigglypuff

Very High Tier
5. Pit
6. Mario
7. Wolf
8. Peach
9. Lucario
10. Zero Suit Samus
11. Snake

B Class
High Tier
12. King DeDeDe
13. Marth
14. Toon Link
15. Lucas
16. Link
17. Pikachu
18. Diddy Kong
19. Wario
20. Squirtle
21. Ike
22. R.O.B.
23. Charizard

C Class
Middle Tier
24. Luigi
25. Captain Falcon
26. Ness
27. Ganondorf
28. Zelda
29. Bowser
30. Sonic
31. Ivysaur
32. Donkey Kong
33. Mr. Game and Watch

[/collapse]

3 Tier classes and 4 tier splits

A Class are fine in both design and gameplay

B Class are basically fine in gameplay but have some minor lacking areas

C Class have more notable lacking areas in design but are by no means unviable or even "less viable" than the other classes.

"Top" is Melee top tier Level

"Very High" is a smidgen above Melee Peach Level

"High" is Melee Marth Level

"Middle" is Melee Doc/Falcon Level

 

[Spiffykins]

That list is D tier.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

DK as 2nd worst in the game? LOL

Bowser as 5th worst? LMAO

 

[Kink-Link5]

Because being a c class character is such a bad look.

 

[a vehicle]

DK as 2nd worst in the game? LOL

Bowser as 5th worst? LMAO

This mentality is exactly what stops meta from developing
I'm sure you would also laugh at tier predictions for melee posted 10 years ago

 

[Vkrm]

Hasbro hit MLP with a C&D earlier. Apparently they CAN do that. Any thoughts on if Nintendo would do the same? I find myself worrying about Pm's future. If they haven't done it already they probably won't, then again, sakurai said himself he enjoys a good practical joke. He might wait until the official release date to lay the ****smack on the pmbr. Scary stuff...

 

[Spiffykins]

This mentality is exactly what stops meta from developing
I'm sure you would also laugh at tier predictions for melee posted 10 years ago

How does being aware of a character's potential stop meta development? To be honest, I found that tier list a little lol worthy too.

 

[Spiffykins]

Hasbro hit MLP with a C&D earlier. Apparently they CAN do that. Any thoughts on if Nintendo would do the same? I find myself worrying about Pm's future. If they haven't done it already they probably won't, then again, sakurai said himself he enjoys a good practical joke. He might wait until the official release date to lay the ****smack on the pmbr. Scary stuff...

That's really a shame. I don't think it means anything for PM since it's a mod and a different company. I think it's also plausible that hasbro somehow saw the 5k donated for FiM at Evo as an affront. It's been in development for a long-gas time. I don't think it's a coincidence that this is happening now.

 

[-Ran]

I wouldn't worry. FiM went completely opposed to the concept of the show. To have a fighting game for a children's show about sharing/caring/whatever, was detrimental to the brand for the toy company. Hasbo wasn't making any money from it, and that was a problem. Though Project M is a fan project, it isn't a free product. You HAVE to own Smash Brothers Brawl to play the game.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If I had to guess, it would be the fact that they have to protect their intellectual property. I believe the way Sega did it with the fanmade Streets of Rage remake is that they did a cease and desist order after the game came out, as it's something like, "if you know someone else is using your IP in an original product and you don't do anything about it, anyone can use your IP freely after a while."

It worked out for the SoRR guys because they weren't getting any money out of it and they only widely publicized it after they were done, so it's still widely available via torrent and the like. I don't think that would be something to worry about for PM because we're modding the game instead of trying to make an original work, and we're certainly not raising money for it.

 

[regal68]

Ever heard of spot-dodging?

You're in hit-stun aren't you? I haven't ever been able to spot dodge Link's jab-jab grab, or sheik's jab grab or fox's. Do you have to DI down or anything? Idk, its possible ive never tried spot dodging then, i've always tried SDI.

Once people realize and capitalize on Ivysaur's weaknesses, she'll undeniably be on the lower end of the list.

Could you go into these weaknesses? I know she can get rushed down super hard by fox and the like but She seems to do quite well against Marth/Sheik/Peach aka I have trouble with her.

She out camps/spaces all three except maybe Sheik. Both her projectiles are very good, her dtilt/jab is godlike, throw is quick and gives free damage, and fair/especially bair outspace all three characters in the air. Her projectiles force aerial approach and seed bomb covers a lot of options.

After forcing aerial approach, Ivy has one of the best anti airs in the game: up b. Up b is quick and relatively safe and blows up sheik's needle approaches and peach's float cancel approaches. Dtilt is as fast as a jab, walls effectively, and pops you up for free fair/bairs. Her uair juggles are extremely easy and are a gigantic disjoint.

I can see she gets rushed down easy by some characters but she is a damn iron wall to a lot of others.

I saw that AZ "ivy is a scrub" video and maybe I'm approaching it wrong too. The ivy didn't use up b at all as an anti air. I guess I'll wait for mor vids

 

[regal68]

On a related note, I honestly think Rat's tier list should be listed as the "Official Tier List of the PMBR." Its the right way to approach early tier lists. These threads in and of themselves are ridiculous. No one has any idea of an accurate tier list other than the melee top are still really good. From my perspective, I would put a few in the top tier, more than half the cast in the high tier, and a few in low tier. There isn't nearly enough data to say anything otherwise lol.

Anyone else think Peach got a lot of new unfavorable MUs? Seems like there are a lot of new characters who can out range her like marth or out space her like Puff. Also Peach v Link and Peach v Mario are terrifying :C

 

[Vashimus]

Kink, you're gonna have to explain to me how not having a projectile isn't a weakness, seeing as it makes spacing and approaching a hell of a lot easier. Of course Marth does fine without a projectile, since he's already good at spacing and approaching safely with his massive range and decent speed. Now give Captain Falcon a projectile (like the gun he always has hostered) and see how much better he does.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Lacking a strength=/= having a weakness
None of the characters in this game have a frame one OHKO that hits everywhere on the stage
If you consider that a weakness then you are beyond our help

Spoiler

pro-tip: This is an analogy

 

[DMG]

It really depends on the projectile and how usable it is in the first place. If you replace a good move with a ****ty projectile, that's not a plus lol.

It's all situational anyways, because the conversations tend to be about "If he had a projectile vs xyz specific characters, he could do better" instead of "Having a projectile period would be an improvement".


Edit: Ivysaur stuff:

Projectile is semi overrated, and too many people are getting Razor Leafed and then grabbed for example. This isn't usually legit pressure on people but I see it happen.


The problem is that compared to other characters, she can't release the projectile quickly and then also move quickly out of it. When you Razor Leaf, you are more committed to that action and are less mobile than the majority of projectile users using their respective moves. Because of that, it becomes harder to maintain a wall with the move, harder to use the projectile as a "lead" that you use to help approach with, and it's harder to do another action quickly in case the person gets past this projectile. If you play vs someone who closes the gap quickly or hops over them commonly, you can't use the move and then also be in the air quickly doing a Bair. You can't use it and then shield quickly or cancel it into the ground to be safer. There's just none of that going on for her, which tends to make her projectile game veryyyy hit or miss. If a character isn't going to be phased by it, it essentially almost becomes a non factor. You won't even be able to situationally use it on the fly due to a low lag/quirky application like bouncing off the ground weird to make it work.


Ivy is too geared towards setting up and camping or zoning. She's very poor overall at approaching and putting someone in a neutral position under pressure. Her setups require time, space, and tend to cover specific zones because she's not a very mobile character. This can force you to act "early" to setup in time to deal with more mobile characters, because you don't have the time to setup a Razor Leaf + Bullet Seed + Bair to wall the Falcon on reaction. You just can't. On the flip side, if she falls behind and needs to approach, she is not mobile enough on her own to switch gears from zoning and approach in a threatening manner.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Oh yeah we weren't saying by any means that any projectile is a strength. Just that the word weakness isn't being used for what it means.

 

[Vashimus]

Lacking a strength=/= having a weakness
None of the characters in this game have a frame one OHKO that hits everywhere on the stage
If you consider that a weakness then you are beyond our help

Spoiler

pro-tip: This is an analogy

Bullsh*t. Squirtle and G&W wish they had a better projectile.

EDIT: DMG got it.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Wishing they had something =/= weakness
A weakness is more liike an exploitable character flaw the actively takes away from the character's ability in some areas
like luigi's lack of aerial mobility and speed takes away from his aerial game and worsens the use of his otherwise pretty decent aerials.

 

[Vashimus]

Kinky's tier list just makes me depressed

 

[DMG]

Why does it make thee sad?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Could you go into these weaknesses? I know she can get rushed down super hard by fox and the like but She seems to do quite well against Marth/Sheik/Peach aka I have trouble with her.

She out camps/spaces all three except maybe Sheik. Both her projectiles are very good, her dtilt/jab is godlike, throw is quick and gives free damage, and fair/especially bair outspace all three characters in the air. Her projectiles force aerial approach and seed bomb covers a lot of options.

After forcing aerial approach, Ivy has one of the best anti airs in the game: up b. Up b is quick and relatively safe and blows up sheik's needle approaches and peach's float cancel approaches. Dtilt is as fast as a jab, walls effectively, and pops you up for free fair/bairs. Her uair juggles are extremely easy and are a gigantic disjoint.

I can see she gets rushed down easy by some characters but she is a damn iron wall to a lot of others.

Do you dashdance efficiently? An important thing about Ivysaur is that while she covers a lot of space with hitboxes, she cannot effectively cover "new" space well. Like, she has huge range with D-Tilt, F-Air, etc., but she can't really shuffle an aerial to approach safely or to threaten new space with her attacks.

It's more-or-less that the space she covers is clearly defined, unlike most characters. Characters like Marth and Sheik can cover a decent distance and poke or grab before the opponent can really react, but most of Ivysaur's pokes are easily crouch-cancelable, and dashdancing often allows you to severely limit the opportunities Ivysaur can attempt to grab you.

Because she's bad at approaching, characters with a good projectile tend to give her a lot of trouble. She can't really do anything about Sheik's Neutral-B, for instance, so keeping that up will give her hell. Her projectiles are awful--They're very slow, and you can clank them both out with literally any move, so try a late Dash Attack, any shuffled aerial, F-Tilt, Jab...Neither of them should be giving you trouble once you realize that moving backward and swatting them makes them useless. If you see her Forward-B while you're at mid range, you can shorthop over and punish.

Up-B comes out on Frame 22, so it's not fast at all. That's not a reliable anti-air by any means, and if she throws one out when you're in neutral position, you should be able to go in pretty easily. If you're approaching from the air, it should be a short-hopped, fastfalled, L-Canceled move, which will keep you out of range of it, anyway. Her grab is too slow to catch you after you hit her shield.

 

[Deleted member]

mario blatantly has one of the best grab games in any smash ever and should very obviously sit near top tier.

 

[DMG]

Idk bout that. His grab game is top tier, but his grab range ain't too hot. Luckily for him it doesn't seem many of the Brawl characters's give him trouble so he's just left with the prior bad Mario/Doc MU's from Melee (and some of them improved a bit)

Also depends on how big you would definite top tier as: if it's top 3-4, he's not next in line at 5th best

 

[regal68]

Thanks Reflex, Up b was really only a problem for float cancelling with peach, and after getting juggled with sheik...Idk I guess I'm just not used to it because theres no move even remotely like it. its like a free tipper fsmash diagonally up lol. And Umbreon idk if your sarcastic but I agree lol so does link.

Does anyone understand Peach's new float cancel mechanics here or should I go to the Peach boards? I was wondering if you can float cancel as well as l cancel or does one take priority? I seem to be at the right height to float cancel a fair but if you l cancel too (which I do instinctively) you will get the flash of white sometimes. Does that mean I was too high to float cancel or?

 

[Deleted member]

Coming from an Ivysaur fan, even I have agree that he's not good. He's fun to play, but he feels like a major work in progress. I placed him near the very bottom of my list

 

[Shell]

Thanks Reflex, Up b was really only a problem for float cancelling with peach, and after getting juggled with sheik...Idk I guess I'm just not used to it because theres no move even remotely like it. its like a free tipper fsmash diagonally up lol. And Umbreon idk if your sarcastic but I agree lol so does link.

Does anyone understand Peach's new float cancel mechanics here or should I go to the Peach boards? I was wondering if you can float cancel as well as l cancel or does one take priority? I seem to be at the right height to float cancel a fair but if you l cancel too (which I do instinctively) you will get the flash of white sometimes. Does that mean I was too high to float cancel or?

Float canceling works because you start the Aerial Attack's Subaction within the parent Float Action, and the Float Action transfers into Heavy Landing Action (IASA 4ish) upon contact with the ground. However, if you start your Aerial Attack _after_ you've released Jump and immediately changed back into the Fall Action, you'll actually go into the normal Aerial Attack Action and Subaction instead, which goes into Aerial Landing Lag and is L-cancelable.

In summary if you're able to L-cancel that means you technically performed the aerial after letting go of float and therefore did not Float Cancel anything.

 

[DrinkingFood]

shell you're a coding genius right
help me figure out something that should be ridiculously simple and works for everyone except me apparently despite my many times over checking and rechecking to be sure I have everything right.
that is, installing homebrew.

EDIT: Herpaderp just realized I'm not in the social thread.

 

[regal68]

Great, you're the best SHeLL. Got it, so make sure to aerial before ending float. I learned by sight and was never specifically taught the order, thanks :D

 

[Kink-Link5]

Kinky's tier list just makes me depressed

What do you think Luigi is a B or something

What's depressing is people putting DeDeDe in G tier and people complaining about tier lists in a tier list speculation thread without giving their own thoughts. I could snark at all the thousands of terrible opinions people have on characters too but it wouldn't do much good.

 

[Vashimus]

Well I certainly don't think DDD's B. Or above Link and Marth for that matter.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Then please by all means share your thoughts on him and the rest of the cast.

 

[Vashimus]

After you Kink.

It's like if I put Charizard on A tier and wonder why people scoff at it when I have yet to make my own thoughts defending it. And never do. Seriously, if you can point to a post where you give a full analysis on DDD, then fine. But I have yet to see you do that. So let's hear it Kink.

(pulls up a chair and sits)

Who knows, I just might learn something and change my mind.

 

[DMG]

I don't care about Dedede, but have you SEEN how ****in big DK's hands are? No way he's second worst in the game lol.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Yea, I'm not a very good PM DK player (I have no idea what I'm doing, and mostly just do Brawl DK stuff), but I can still give people the business because he's just solid. I know there's all kinds of stuff he can do that I dunno how to do, and I'd probably absolutely pulverize people if I could do that stuff.

 

[Overswarm]

DK was solid in Melee, there's just characters that were more solid.

And you could shut him down with Sheik's d-throw pretty easy.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Well DK might be a pretty solid character and that's nice and all but unless there are characters who are obviously less solid than him he probably deserves a pretty low placement. By which I mean a very low placement.

 

[DMG]

I can't possibly justify placing him in the bot 5.