Tier List Speculation

[#HBC | Joker]

He's still decent. Bottom of B = somewhere around IC's tier.

He's got alot of changes and they add up to make a big difference imo.

Yea but even though some of his changes were outright nerfs, he got some buffs as well.

 

[Archangel]

Yea but even though some of his changes were outright nerfs, he got some buffs as well.

yeah but...in this case it didn't balance out well at all.

Pit for example got Nerfed and Buffs and his Buffs overshadow his Nerfs significantly.

Lucario is the equal opposite.

 

[Spiffykins]

yeah but...in this case it didn't balance out well at all.

Pit for example got Nerfed and Buffs and his Buffs overshadow his Nerfs significantly.

Lucario is the equal opposite.

I agree with this. Down b and side b were god tier moves before and glued together his entire playstyle, now they're both pretty meh. It's sort of like if you were to nerf Falco's shine and dair in exchange for buffing his fair and up smash.

 

[Archangel]

I agree with this. Down b and side b were god tier moves before and glued together his entire playstyle, now they're both pretty meh. It's sort of like if you were to nerf Falco's shine and dair in exchange for buffing his fair and up smash.

Exactly, It would be like taking away Marth's Combos and chaingrabs but buffing his counter.

 

[DMG]

No, that's extreme and not at all a good analogy lol. Would be more like making them harder to execute/easier to DI/harder time approaching

 

[Vashimus]

It's like taking away Falcon's knee and buffing his f-smash.

These analogies are fun DMG.

 

[Silly Kyle]

Pit's upsmash and up b need to be nerfed :3

 

[#HBC | Joker]

It'd be like nerfing Ganon's fair, and buffing his utilt!

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Overall, Lucario feels like a shadow of his former self. Granted his gameplay was so ridiculously simple because of his dash attack that he was almost flow-chartable. Now his down-B is almost unusable. It comes out far too slow to allow you to dodge attacks with it, as well as it travels so short that you can't chase with it. Side-B is much slower and doesn't link into much which seems to defeat the purpose of Lucario's ability to cancel into his attacks.

His up-throw, which used to be a near guaranteed kill combo starter is now almost completely useless asides from at very low %. Many characters can link together near-guaranteed kills from throws including Fox, Mario, Link, and even Ness to some extent. I don't understand what was so overpowering about giving Lucario that ability as well.

I could be wrong about this, but I think his Nair is less reliable as a kill move now too. Against opponents that I was once able to kill with it, I find myself unable to do it anymore. It very well could just be me, but it seems odd.

I can barely see any of his buffs as being worthwhile in comparison to what he's lost.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Yeah, it's like nerfing Sonic's spin, and buffing his spin!

 

[#HBC | Joker]

*tweaking* his spin.

 

[Spiffykins]

I'm so popular

 

[Archangel]

Overall, Lucario feels like a shadow of his former self. Granted his gameplay was so ridiculously simple because of his dash attack that he was almost flow-chartable. Now his down-B is almost unusable. It comes out far too slow to allow you to dodge attacks with it, as well as it travels so short that you can't chase with it. Side-B is much slower and doesn't link into much which seems to defeat the purpose of Lucario's ability to cancel into his attacks.

His up-throw, which used to be a near guaranteed kill combo starter is now almost completely useless asides from at very low %. Many characters can link together near-guaranteed kills from throws including Fox, Mario, Link, and even Ness to some extent. I don't understand what was so overpowering about giving Lucario that ability as well.

I could be wrong about this, but I think his Nair is less reliable as a kill move now too. Against opponents that I was once able to kill with it, I find myself unable to do it anymore. It very well could just be me, but it seems odd.

I can barely see any of his buffs as being worthwhile in comparison to what he's lost.

yeah I think this better explains why I put Lucario so low.

Yeah, it's like nerfing Sonic's spin, and buffing his spin!

I almost died laughing.

 

[humble]

What do you guys think of the tier list from Overswarm's survey?

[COLLAPSE="Poll Tier List"]Falco
Fox
Sheik
Marth
Peach
Mario
Jigglypuff
Ike
Wolf
Lucario
Sonic
Pit
Diddy Kong
Captain Falcon
Snake
Bowser
Ganondorf
Link
Wario
Charizard
Lucas
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Zelda
Ivysaur
Toon Link
Squirtle
Luigi
King Dedede
ROB
Ness
G&W[/COLLAPSE]

[Collapse="Majority Vote (no particular order within tiers)"]S tier:
Falco
Fox
Sheik

A tier:
Peach
Marth
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Mario
Lucario
Sonic
Ike
Wolf
Pit

B tier:
Ganondorf
Pikachu
Donkey Kong
Link
Bowser
Zero Suit Samus
Toon Link
Squirtle
Ivysaur
Lucas
Sonic

C tier
Luigi
Zelda
Ness
Snake
Diddy Kong
Wario
King Dedede

D tier:
G&W
Ness
Zero Suit Samus
ROB
Charizard
[/Collapse]

 

[Vashimus]

Why are Sonic and ZSS listed twice in the majority vote? Equal votes?

 

[Overswarm]

Why are Sonic and ZSS listed twice in the majority vote? Equal votes?

Yes .

 

[humble]

Yes .

Which of the placements do you feel is more accurate/representative of the characters abilities?

 

[OkamiBW]

I hadn't seen that thread beforehand. Where was the poll before?

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

I still think it's funny that Toon Link is so low when he has a good match up against the following:
Peach
Jigglypuff*
Ike
Ganondorf
Wario*
Charizard
Zelda
Ivysaur*
King Dedede
Ness
G&W
*really good

And an even match-up against:
Marth
Lucario
Captain Falcon
Snake
Donkey Kong
Toon Link
King Dedede
ROB

Slightly bad against:
Mario
Pit
Bowser
Link

And really only hardcore beat by:
Falco
Fox
Sheik
Wolf

Though I have no idea about:
Diddy Kong
Lucas
Pikachu
Sonic
Zero Suit Samus
Squirtle
Luigi
ROB

Anyways, what do I know about playing TL. I'd know more about the character if I sat at home and made theory instead of going to tournaments. After all, Fox and Bowser are broken in theory in Melee, right?

Spoiler

Kink-Link excepting, as tbh, I truly like his reasoning.

 

[Juushichi]

Surprised you missed the thread before, Okami. It has been sitting in General Discussion for a little while now. A quick scroll would have told you everything you need to know.

Also, TL seems to be almost an exclusively region-specific phenomenon I would guess. You have a really good one, there is one further out west with Daze. Outside of that, where are the TL's? We have none in the Midwest (and 1.05+other Columbus seems to think he's bad), there doesn't seem to be many in the ATL South, or on the coast. Are there any in the Southwest?

This probably would say something. Of course, I am not doubting that what you say is true.

 

[JTsm]

Snake for top tier.

 

[Juushichi]

Snake is the P:M version of Marth, except he's actually a mid-tier character.

By that, I mean only Europe is really good with him.

 

[DMG]

I *strongly* doubt that TL is even with Marth.

 

[JTsm]

Snake is the P:M version of Marth, except he's actually a mid-tier character.

By that, I mean only Europe is really good with him.

And when Europe comes to the US, is gonna show the business.

I do agree he's mid-tier by the rep he's getting.

 

[Juushichi]

I think Snake is a strong mid-tier character. He's someone you can reasonably solo with, but definitely becomes much easier to do things (goes farther) with if you have a secondary that covers his weaknesses, whatever that may be.

Another such character is like... DK/Ganon/Link... maybe Zelda, etc. Falcon might be in this category.

 

[BJN39]

I think i'll put up my current opinions on the cast since a few others have done it recently.

[COLLAPSE="My Current Opinionated Tier List"]S Tier
1. :foxbrawl: Fox
2. :falcobrawl: Falco
A+ Tier
3. :snakebrawl: Snake
4. :sheikbrawl: Sheik
5. :mariobrawl: Mario
6. eachbrawl: Peach
A Tier
7. :sonicbrawl: Sonic
8. :zeldabrawl: Zelda
9. :marthbrawl: Marth
10. :jigglypuffbrawl: Jigglypuff
B+ Tier
11. :lucariobrawl: Lucario
12. itbrawl: Pit
13. :linkbrawl: Link
14. :ikebrawl: Ike
B Tier
15. :wolfbrawl: Wolf
16. :ganonbrawl: Ganondorf
17. :bowserbrawl: Bowser
18. :falconbrawl: Captain Falcon
C+ Tier
19. :diddybrawl: Diddy Kong
20. :squirtlebrawl: Squirtle
21. ikachubrawl: Pikachu
22. harizardbrawl: Charizard
C Tier
23. :wariocbrawl: Wario
24. :nessbrawl: Ness
25. :toonlinkbrawl: Toon Link
26. :dkbrawl: Donkey Kong
27. :robbrawl: ROB
28. :lucasbrawl: Lucas
D Tier
29. :zssbrawl: Zero Suit Samus
30. :dededebrawl: King Dedede
31. :ivysaurbrawl: Ivysaur
32. :luigibrawl: Luigi
33. :gwbrawl: Mr. Game & Watch


Notes:
* Maybe my placements of Sonic/Snake so high are a bit premature, but a lot of their options seem very threatening, like, top tier threatening. Well, to me at least.
* As always; "This (my) tier list is subject to change in the future."
[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Juushichi]

Why are Zelda and Sonic so high?

If you switched Lucario with Wolf and rearranged that tier, I'd almost be okay with it.

Why do you feel C+ is better than C tier? Because I could see them switched, honestly.

Why is Snake not on there at all? EDIT: Oh wait, he's in 3rd. WHAT.

Why is Ganondorf so much higher than Donkey Kong?

 

[Jesseyo]

Game and Watch is pretty good guys
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwvm9R-kPQA

 

[JTsm]

You're too early, man.

 

[Jesseyo]

You're too early, man.

Just you wait

Headed to work soon. I wanted to get it up before I left

 

[BJN39]

Why are Zelda and Sonic so high?

If you switched Lucario with Wolf and rearranged that tier, I'd almost be okay with it.

Why do you feel C+ is better than C tier? Because I could see them switched, honestly.

Why is Snake not on there at all? EDIT: Oh wait, he's in 3rd. WHAT.

Why is Ganondorf so much higher than Donkey Kong?

Well Excuse me!

When did this become the "Tier list critique" thread?

And I already stated that the places of sonic and snake may be a bit premature in the notes at the bottom.

As for Zelda; What's wrong with me thinking she's 8th? I believe she's better than most other people believe. I mean, come on, 24th - 33rd?! No.

 

[JTsm]

Oh... weird, but kinda cool G&W combo.

DEBATES ABOUT OPINIONS YES.

I'd honestly wait off on the tier list until P:M is not a demo anymore.

 

[Archangel]

I *strongly* doubt that TL is even with Marth.

The rule is...if you can spot dodge and you have a hitbox on 1 or more attacks that last longer than Marth's spot dodge you can beat Marth. Pressure is also a plus, and a projectle(3 in this case with Tink) is also a plus.

Idk about even though. Might be a bit of a stretch but I think it's possible for a Tink to win.

@that tier list. I think Zelda has a few glaring weaknesses but only a few that she can't cover. Speed is still an issue for her so Fox and Sonic....enjoy. With that said I think Zelda is super underrated. Like peach before armada showed up. When an armada-type Zelda hits the tournament seen.....it's going to get ugly.

 

[Strong Badam]

peach was underrated before armada showed up? you know she was in the same spot on the tier list before genesis 1 as she is now right

 

[Archangel]

peach was underrated before armada showed up? you know she was in the same spot on the tier list before genesis 1 as she is now right

I don't care about the tier list I'm talking about the public view. Tier list has never matter much to me to be honest...it seems to always be wrong...or right...but too late when it's right. Meaning by the time they change it to reflect what's going on currently it's already outdated... Which annoyed me from the start.

Anyways...what I mean is from 2006-2008 how many picked her to win something national or international? How many would pick her to win consistently on a national or international level? Compare that to the amount of people who would pick Zelda to win PM and you'll get my point.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

tier list speculation threads hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha oh man

keep at it folks LOL

 

[Archangel]

how old are you gimpy?

 

[humble]

how old are you gimpy?

It says on his profile, he's 25. Just click on his avatar.

Spoiler

Whoops, misplaced the decimal, I mean 2.5

 

[Juushichi]

For the record, BJN. I think (solo) Zelda is around the mid to late teens, alongside characters like DK, Snake and Ganondorf.

Also, this has always been the tier list critique thread.

Also, while some of these things seem kinda weird to me, I am more interested in why you think what you think, which is why I was asking. I am not sure when asking why someone said something in a public forum became critiquing, but I am not sure I like this brave new world.

 

[Spiffykins]

how old are you gimpy?

old enough that his skin has gone scaly

haha

get it

 

[KayB]

Why is ROB so low

tier list speculation threads hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha oh man

keep at it folks LOL

You'll suddenly care once we put Bowser in A tier I bet.