Tier List Speculation

[OkamiBW]

Surprised you missed the thread before, Okami. It has been sitting in General Discussion for a little while now. A quick scroll would have told you everything you need to know.

Also, TL seems to be almost an exclusively region-specific phenomenon I would guess. You have a really good one, there is one further out west with Daze. Outside of that, where are the TL's? We have none in the Midwest (and 1.05+other Columbus seems to think he's bad), there doesn't seem to be many in the ATL South, or on the coast. Are there any in the Southwest?

This probably would say something. Of course, I am not doubting that what you say is true.

Well, there's also Jolteon up in England with TL. I'm not sure. I think I rep both Southwest and SoCal area, but there's also Frenum who NO ONE knows about, who I'll try to get recorded tonight since he's coming from Palm Springs to play with us.

I *strongly* doubt that TL is even with Marth.

YL vs Marth didn't feel too hard for me in Melee, so it definitely feels even in P:M. You probably just don't play against good TL's. Unless you mean that TL vs Marth is in TL's favor in which case you don't play against good Marth's.

 

[Translucent]

I remember Frenium, he had a crazy good toon link in 2.1. Where has he been?

 

[OkamiBW]

Palm Springs in the middle of nowhere. I'm gonna get recording stuff tonight. (best grammar ever)

 

[Tmacc]

It's so hard to make tier lists for this game...you basically have to make "groups" of amazing, great, and mediocre, with no order within the list.

 

[Juushichi]

that is also okay

 

[Spiffykins]

It's so hard to make tier lists for this game...you basically have to make "groups" of amazing, great, and mediocre, with no order within the list.

I think I'll try my hand at just this. Making an accurate ordered tier list is really not very feasible at the moment, but I think general ranks aren't too hard to get a little consensus on.

 

[Kink-Link5]

[collapse=Bunni's 2.5b list version 1.9.1]A Class
Top Tier
1. Fox
2. Zelda/Sheik
3.

Falco
4. Jigglypuff

Very High Tier
5. Pit
6. Wolf
7. Mario
8.

Peach
9.

Snake

B Class
High Tier
10. Zero Suit Samus
11. Marth
12. Lucas
13. Pikachu
14. Lucario
15. King DeDeDe
16. Link
17. Diddy Kong
18. Wario
19. Toon Link
20.

Ike
21. R.O.B.
22. Charizard

C Class
Middle Tier
23. Sonic
24. Bowser

25. Captain Falcon
26. Donkey Kong
27. Luigi
28. Zelda
29. Ivysaur
30. Ganondorf
31. Squirtle
32. Mr. Game and Watch
33. Ness

[/collapse]

3 Tier classes and 4 tier splits

A Class are fine in both design and gameplay

B Class are basically fine in gameplay but have some minor lacking areas

C Class have more notable lacking areas in design but are by no means unviable or even "less viable" than the other classes.

"Top" is Melee top tier Level

"Very High" is a smidgen above Melee Peach Level

"High" is Melee Marth Level

"Middle" is Melee Doc/Falcon Level

 

[BlinkIV]

"33. Ness"

 

[Translucent]

I really like the idea of the bottom of the tier list being compared to melee doc level. It's showing how viable characters are, and any character can win tournaments.

 

[mydadsacop123]

Ness should b lower

 

[OkamiBW]

I can agree with Kink-Link's list for the most part. It's pretty solid and reasonable, Imo. Like...the only thing I'd do that's kind of drastic is to drop Puff a couple of spaces.

 

[Translucent]

Lucas and zss are pretty high for me. Has Lucas had any good results yet?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I really like the idea of the bottom of the tier list being compared to melee doc level. It's showing how viable characters are, and any character can win tournaments.

It's easy to like the idea, but, I'm not convinced that that's true.

 

[Archangel]

I think some placings are very solid by Kink. Other placings seem so far out of place that I'm not sure how to handle it.

 

[DMG]

I don't think someone like Pikachu is really "close" to top 10.

 

[BTmoney]

Bunni's 2.5b list version 1.9.1

Wow, this is a mess imo.

• Falcon is nowhere near that bad
• Zelda is decent, not convinced she is worth using but she isn't that bad, I'll leave that as ehhhh
• Wolf 6th best character in the game AND better than peach?
• ZSS better than Marth AND Lucario AND Link AND Ike AND Falcon
• Falcon lower than Bowser (who isn't god awful, that is not what I am implying)
• Ike is far too low
• Ganon is about as good as falcon, not that low
• Wario and D3 are probably too high as well
• Sonic probably isn't that bad
• Squirtle is at least decent (first hand exp.)
• I really can only agree with the top tier

I noticed the "version 1.9.1", is this based off of something numerical or is it all subjective?

The description afterwards seems to contradict the placing of characters unless you really stand by that list. A tier list of "great" "good" "okay" really does not make sense, especially if you want to do it in terms of the melee tier list. This is implying that there somehow is an extreme balance in this game. Even if characters are more similar and closely contested, which I don't think is as drastic as this list implies, characters are still or can be considered "comparatively" bad and therefore practically bad.

My point is, I think the/an official tier list will vary greatly from this.

 

[Kink-Link5]

It's based on not having character emoticons to use.


It's fine and good that you disagree with my character listings, but

C class is not "that bad"

 

[DMG]

The main issue I have with the list/s, is the idea that everyone is automatically near the Melee Doc/Samus/Falcon/Ganon level in Melee. The way it is presented also makes them sound move viable than they actually are, in relation to the PM cast. Assuming everyone really is basically Samus+ power level in this game, having 30 characters above that level, who are also still above you, doesn't point a picture of everyone really being that viable. MU spreads are not that "evenish" imo, and being better or as good as Doc in Melee doesn't mean that you share the same viability he had in the prior game. It might just mean that the "average" level required to be tournament viable went up from Melee. Being as good as Doc or Ganon/Samus from Melee MAY NOT be enough to cut it in PM.

I feel that is likely the case (the viability part), and is only natural with the buffs given AND with new characters added. I don't agree with the happy picture of everyone viable and good relative MU spreads and everyone above or at xyz power level from Melee. Like if you were to ask me what happened for Pikachu, that made him better than Melee Falcon and Marth, and close to top 10 in this game, I couldn't find it with a magnifying glass. Lol.

 

[BTmoney]

That's what I am talking about with the comparatively and practically bad thing.

If class C contains the worst characters, and they are the worst because they are literally closest to the bottom of the tier list where the first character is the best and last character is the worst, then they are at best comparatively bad. If other characters have more advantages and quality options then class C characters are also practically bad. "Average," or class C, is not viable in this perspective. Average is bad. Class C characters should be ones that are not worth using. Because of that, tier lists should not be made in sections such as "great" "good" "mediocre." The worst character in the game literally cannot belong in the mediocre tier.

Ranking characters in order is best imo without those titles. Or ranking them with much smaller and more tiers like how the melee/brawl lists are now.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Melee and especially brawl tiers are pretty atrocious. They're decided based on the average difference in points awarded by individual votes between characters with large differences resulting in a tier split. Ice Climbers aren't a whole tier worse than Falcon and Doc isn't a whole tier worse than Ice Climbers.

 

[OkamiBW]

Wow, this is a mess imo.

• Falcon is nowhere near that bad Don't think of him as bad, but moreso having other characters to contend with.
• Zelda is decent, not convinced she is worth using but she isn't that bad, I'll leave that as ehhhh Once again, you're stuck in the mindset that the character is bad. The lower characters are a lot closer in options and viability to the higher ones. It's not like Melee Ness vs Melee Peach or something.
• Wolf 6th best character in the game AND better than peach? Wolf is basically like a space animal with a knee that can work with his slower laser, having a couple out at once to control space.
• ZSS better than Marth AND Lucario AND Link AND Ike AND Falcon Right, I'm not sure I agree either.
• Falcon lower than Bowser (who isn't god awful, that is not what I am implying) Yeah, there are a lot of characters who are much more improved. Falcon got a couple of little tweaks for the most part. Though, perhaps the gap between him and Peach shouldn't be so big.
• Ike is far too low Neutral on this.
• Ganon is about as good as falcon, not that low I disagree. Falcon has a ton more speed to work with as well as being less bulky and less easy to combo.
• Wario and D3 are probably too high as well Wario's pretty dang solid, Imo. The milkman opened my eyes on that one. As for D3, he probably 'should' be a bit lower, but he's not as bad as most people think, myself included. Just watch a couple of Fly Amanita videos. Or better yet play him.
• Sonic probably isn't that bad I can get behind this.
• Squirtle is at least decent (first hand exp.) Squirtle is decent, yes. But he's not super amazing. His lack of range hurts him a bit. Though, he's definitely solid.
• I really can only agree with the top tier I think everyone can.

Btw, these are just my opinions, don't take them for fact, etc. etc.

 

[BTmoney]

Okami, it's coo. We all have opinions but I think you are misinterpreting me lol
And people hate on puff for whatever reason. No one really zones her out other than like Ike and maybe Pitt. People don't agree with her being that high.


Relative low position does imply being bad. You're kind of saying what I said in my post above this.
Despite the name of the tiers "A" "B" "C" whatever the best character is at the top of the A tier while the worst character is at the bottom of the C tier. You could say "oh, the C tier isn't that bad." But it is that bad. The C tier which is the last tier, which is the furthest away from the best tier contains the worst characters.

Best->average->worst
You cannot go
Best->good->average
How can the last character in the average tier be average?
How can the character who is inferior to everyone else be average?
Now continue that thought.


These characters can be good in a melee cast but by PM standards they are bad because they are dealing with a PM cast. It doesn't matter if you call it the average tier or the garbage tier. It doesn't matter if the worst character in the game is only slightly worse than the best. The lowest and lower characters are bad while the highest and higher characters are good.

Putting Falcon at 25/33 is saying he is bad.
That is not saying he is average or not that bad or viable.
That is what I mean when I say good or bad. Decent implies 50th percentile-ish.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Melee and especially brawl tiers are pretty atrocious. They're decided based on the average difference in points awarded by individual votes between characters with large differences resulting in a tier split. Ice Climbers aren't a whole tier worse than Falcon and Doc isn't a whole tier worse than Ice Climbers.

Tiers are primarily based off the success characters have vs the rest of the cast in a tournament environment, factoring in the playability of that character at higher levels of play. True, characters may not be worse. But the exploits characters have and their ability to be used at the discretion of the player has a huge role in deciding a characters tier and/or placements over time as metagame evolves.

 

[SamWholeFoods]

Kink mind explaining your reasoning for Ganon's placement? Not disagreeing with the C tier placement but bottom 5 is interesting to me.

 

[Jolteon]

Surprised you missed the thread before, Okami. It has been sitting in General Discussion for a little while now. A quick scroll would have told you everything you need to know.

Also, TL seems to be almost an exclusively region-specific phenomenon I would guess. You have a really good one, there is one further out west with Daze. Outside of that, where are the TL's? We have none in the Midwest (and 1.05+other Columbus seems to think he's bad), there doesn't seem to be many in the ATL South, or on the coast. Are there any in the Southwest?

This probably would say something. Of course, I am not doubting that what you say is true.

I personally agree with Okami, since picking up this character I think he is great and definitely top 8 material. I also think he is very underrated vs Fox/Falco/Sheik (he combos+edgeguards+juggles them super hard). I've played this character for like 6 weeks and have already taken a set off of Fuzzyness' Lucario and he just feels super good to me. He is mobile, has fast attacks, respectable range, a great sex kick, good combo potential, good killing power, a good recovery, a strong grab game and great set-ups. I dunno what else people want from him lol. >_> The only character I believe that he struggles with atm is Wolf, though I lack MU experience against a few chars.

But you are right that he is a very region-specific character atm. Highly underrepresented.

I *strongly* doubt that TL is even with Marth.

He has a lot of advantages that Marth struggles against, the very existence of AGT means that Marth has to work a lot harder for his uthrow+edgeguard game and TL's bomb -> combo/finisher game works really well against Marth. Tether edgeguards work really well against him, too.

His z-air is also like, super good against Marth, lol.

 

[Professor Pro]

:O What's this, Snake moving higher on everyone tier lists lately.
What happened to the 23rd best in game days?

And also what happened to the 'No MU's is in his favour, he gets destroyed by G&W' days

 

[TheReflexWonder]

They're still here, depending on who you ask.

 

[Juushichi]

I for one welcome our 1 snake overlord.

Also @ Jolt, TL is a character I've been messing around with a lot. I usually play him to change pace + troll some of Columbus with nair. I think he's good, dunno about top-8 material myself. I could see him being top-12 maybe, though.

 

[leffen]

I still think people are over rating the Melee top tiers by insane amounts. Consider how bad combos fox/marth/peach/puff has and compare them to the new characters... even worse compare any characters recovery and/or tilts.

or just the fact that there seem to be almost no new characters with a good spike and/or move that hits at a low angle, where as pretty much every single top tier had one in melee. This further adds to the recoveries being broken (along with several system changes, except for the fact that every new character just has flat out better recovery on average).

I also think there is a case of most moves having way to little lag in general, whiff punishing is in general much harder in P:M.

I think snake is really good, at least in some matchups. However, you do get much better against him once you learn his tricks, fighting him the first time is like fighting an ICs player the first time, its just really hard in the beginning.

 

[Overswarm]

Toon Link is definitely a sleeper character for certain matchups, but his awful recovery is going to hold him back.

And don't give me stuff about glide tossing and up+bing into bombs and whatnot. Turnips, needles, grenades, shines, gyros, lasers, bacon, and all other manner of projectiles and edgeguarding attempts make TLink's recovery far worse outside of a vacuum.

 

[leffen]

I don't think you realize how good his recovery is if you DI properly, especially since he can just do normal air glide tosses and throw lots of projectiles to cover his descent. His tether is also extremely powerful, like most tethers, at making him resistant against gimps. Mixed up with his up B, its very hard to keep TL from sweetspotting. He can also go quite far offstage, unlike most melee top tiers.

Fox/Falcon/Falco/Sheik/Marth/Doc/ICs still managed fine in melee, and they all have worse recoveries than TL imo.

If someone shot a laser to interrupt his bomb jumping (which is MUCH faster and so much harder to stop than links bomb jump in melee) then they would have to go below the stage most times, and the TL could just react and up b into it, and then bomb jump for even more height.
And please don't suggest "shines", bacon and GRENADES as a good edge guard against TL.

Most projectile edgeguards require quite some set up, and often limits you to standing on stage. TL would in the majority of cases make it back to the stage just fine, and then the opponent would have to swat away him, through his barrage of projectiles, and THEN go back on stage and setup a projectile edgeguard, when most characters couldn't make it back anyway if TL is forced to bomb jump.

TL could also do the bomb jumps high, which makes them impossible to stop.

 

[Jolteon]

I for one welcome our 1 snake overlord.

Also @ Jolt, TL is a character I've been messing around with a lot. I usually play him to change pace + troll some of Columbus with nair. I think he's good, dunno about top-8 material myself. I could see him being top-12 maybe, though.

He's really good. idk what else to say, I could play you at Gen 3 I guess, but I'm not sure if it would change your mind. ;x

Toon Link is definitely a sleeper character for certain matchups, but his awful recovery is going to hold him back.

And don't give me stuff about glide tossing and up+bing into bombs and whatnot. Turnips, needles, grenades, shines, gyros, lasers, bacon, and all other manner of projectiles and edgeguarding attempts make TLink's recovery far worse outside of a vacuum.

His recovery is great, he has a) good distance and b) a LOT of options.

It's not just about his bomb jump, that's great for distance but the real strength in his recovery comes from how versatile it is. He has a lot of options. AGTing in different directions, tethering, wall jump -> b-reverse, bomb -> tech and sweespot dj/sweetspot up+b are all solid options.

I don't agree that his recovery only works in a vacuum. Honestly if you're struggling with TL's recovery then you are doing something wrong, it's not TL, he has all the tools necessary to get back. He is most vulnerable when the opponent is close and you don't have a bomb, this is a flaw with his recovery, but all that requires is that you have some self awareness and don't pull out a bomb like an idiot when you can get punished.

edit: Also I'm curious, how much experience do you have with TL's recovery? You do know that his bomb stuffs half of the projectiles you mentioned, right?

 

[leffen]

Yeah, the complaining about TL's supposedly bad recovery makes me think of how spacies, or really any of the melee top tiers recovery is used by bad players. Recovering takes a lot of skill, and its constantly being improved upon. TL's recovery may not be braindead like some others in PM, but its still very capable.

 

[Juushichi]

I would love to play you at Gen 3 if I decided to go and had the money (I probably won't, lol) and I mean... this game isn't that old. I'm not saying that there is no way I would believe the character would ever be one of the best eight characters in the game, I just don't see it right now. Which is okay. I'm open to have my opinion change (and it did about Wolf [APEX] and Snake [watching Prof. Pro.]), so it's no big deal.

Overall, I think that the skepticism that OS is offering comes from a bit more of a Brawl perspective. Outside of the fact that recovering was much easier in the game... there is, with the exception of AGT, just about nothing that Toon Link does to recover that we/he don't/doesn't really have a bit of experience dealing with in his Brawl incarnation. In fact, a lot of what I see TL do as he returns to the stage seems very vB Snake-like. Plus, while the new tether mechanics are interesting and new to deal with, the fact of the matter is that they are still worse than the other ones and are able to be reacted to with enough practice with them.

I feel pretty neutral overall. Like I mentioned before, Toon Link is not a popular character in my state and I don't believe he's a popular character in the region. I could be wrong.

 

[leffen]

. Outside of the fact that recovering was much easeir in the game, there is that with the exception of AGT, there is just about nothing that Toon Link does to recover that we/he don't/doesn't really have a bit of experience dealing with in his Brawl incarnation. Plus, while the new tether mechanics are interesting and new to deal with, the fact of the matter is that they are still worse than the other ones and are able to be reacted to with enough practice with them.

I don't agree. First of all, the tether mechanics are completely different in P:M. Secondly, bomb jumping does not exist in brawl. I was also a brawl player, and I know myself that his recovery is nothing like brawl. Especially with the changes to DI, gravity, and so on.

Also, P:M tethers are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better than the melee ones. They're virtually nonpunishable in many matchups. Claiming that "the fact of the matter is that they are still worse than the other ones" is just extremely silly.

 

[GunBlaze]

Yet so vulnerable....

 

[Jolteon]

I would love to play you at Gen 3 if I decided to go and had the money (I probably won't, lol) and I mean... this game isn't that old. I'm not saying that there is no way I would believe the character would ever be one of the best eight characters in the game, I just don't see it right now. Which is okay. I'm open to have my opinion change (and it did about Wolf [APEX] and Snake [watching Prof. Pro.]), so it's no big deal.

I feel pretty neutral overall. Like I mentioned before, Toon Link is not a popular character in my state and I don't believe he's a popular character in the region. I could be wrong.

Looks like I'll just have to win tournaments, then. ;>

leffen: While I personally think PM tethers are better overall because it's a lot riskier to run off and gimp someone than it is in Melee I don't agree that they are unpunishable. Just by hogging the ledge you force a laggy get-up animation which is a free punish. It's not on the level of falcon/sheik/marth up+b lag but it is enough to react to.

 

[leffen]

The tethers make it impossible to get gimped at low%, which is something that melee recoveries are known to be vulnerable to, and one of melee's biggest trademarks.
Even punishing the "laggy getup animation" (which isnt that laggy really) is really hard, and often impossible to do on reaction. 99% of characters also get a really ****ty punish even when they do hit them. In some matchups you can punish them, but many top tiers (marth/peach/puff for example) can't really punish it at all. Even if you do manage to punish them, you're most likely gonna be hit onstage, which if you compare it to any melee recovery, clearly stands out.

 

[Jolteon]

I agree that the new tethers are really hard to gimp. The punishes you get on the reel-in are also not optimal, true, but it is definitely possible to do on reaction though. :> I honestly find it easy to punish.

I'm not disagreeing that they are good, but they are still punishable. Though, I doubt that chars with a slow DJ would be able to punish them.

Or maybe I'm just biased 'cause TL gets a free up+b from it. ;>

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I disagree about gimping tethers. You just have to really go in on them in a way that requires more commitment than it did in Melee.