Vashimus
Smash Master
Don't worry
About a thing
Because every little thing
Is gonna be top tier
About a thing
Because every little thing
Is gonna be top tier
-
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I've already given my thoughts on characters.After you Kink.
It's like if I put Charizard on A tier and wonder why people scoff at it when I have yet to make my own thoughts defending it. And never do. Seriously, if you can point to a post where you give a full analysis on DDD, then fine. But I have yet to see you do that. So let's hear it Kink.
(pulls up a chair and sits)
Who knows, I just might learn something and change my mind.
There were like 11 characters I put as A list, 12 I put as B, and 10 as C, I believe.
What literally just happened here was that I asked you to give your thoughts on characters, then you didn't, then you asked me to give my thoughts on characters. That's just a smidgen disrespectful, and I would appreciate mutual respect. It's especially concerning that this is a tier list discussion thread and there are no tier lists being presented for discussion.
If you want me to share my thoughts on DeDeDe then here they are:
DeDeDe's design is fine and he is akin to Marth regarding strengths, but has some minor lacking areas, such as the low coverage of his moves and a mobility that is restricted to mostly an airborne state.
__________________
Archangel
Smash Hero
Update of my opinion so far.
S tier:
A+ tier
A tier
A- tier
B tier
c+ tier
Why am I so terrible tier
S tier:
A+ tier
A tier
A- tier
B tier
c+ tier
Why am I so terrible tier
I think Marth is too low. And why is Sheik so far away from Sheilda?
And I don't think G&W is bad enough to have his own tier. Still terrible I guess, but not his own tier.
And I don't think G&W is bad enough to have his own tier. Still terrible I guess, but not his own tier.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
i swear, we could give gnw ohko moves on everything and people would still say he's the worst in the game
Nobody plays G&W, so they don't understand what he's capable of, so they have no reason to think of him as anything but terrible.
Vashimus
Smash Master
Yeah? Well maybe next time, give him his Up-B parachute back. Then we'll talk.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
I played him once and said "oh, still G&W" and never really looked back. Just doesn't seem worth the effort to get around his defensive issues.
Wall of text incoming:
Hey, my tag is Nap. I'm a long time lurker but I was inspired to make an account in order to dispel some common and I believe inaccurate assumptions used to shelf G&W on the bottom slot on many tier lists. Many seem to place him at the bottom simply because others do so or maybe because of the lack of character information. For some, it has even become a meme unsubstantiated by fact or serious playtesting. But because I don't want to resort to unsupported theory-crafting, I'll start with some footage.
Here are some friendlies I played with my roommate, metroid, as G&W against his Ike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx2Z6zDXSOI&list=UUi6VKtbbRld-ecDt7ANgNNw&index=1
I am certainly not on the same level as metroid and to many, I am probably a scrub, but I believe that some of these matches might demonstrate some of G&W's strengths and counter some of the misinformation I have seen in smashboards about P:M G&W. Quick note, I play with tap jump off, which I believe is almost necessary to use some of G&W's tools consistently.
1.) "G&W's recovery is terrible."
I strongly disagree. His up+B is quick, covers a huge vertical distance, and has a very generous sweetspot that protects him from almost any on stage edge guarding if done perfectly (except for ike's eruption and Charizard's nair...) It wasn't even that bad in melee. But in P:M, it can be angled forward, which decreases the "pull-down" that was in melee and he can double jump afterwards. This is huge. It makes it less predictable and linear as well as drastically increases his horizontal recovery. In addition , he can protect himself when he lands on stage by throwing out an aerial. I honestly believe it to be one of the better recoveries in the game.
2.) "Killed way too easily."
His light weight and floatiness certainly don't help and he doesn't have the drift jigglypuff has so I sort of do agree on this point. But he does have one of the best panic buttons in the game in his up+b which works almost like an aerial bowser fortress. It's a quick hitbox that ejects him away from his opponent and helps him restore to neutral. His lingering aerial hitboxes, his bair for example, can protect him from characters looking to punish him on his way down. And since he can use his double jump afterwards, he can often avoid punishment when this move is done in the air. He's super light, but opponents can't always rely on him to be comboed easily.
3.)"Lacks reliable kill power."
G&W is a ****ing cannon. His smashes have absurd kill power although they are admittedly unreliable and situational. I feel like this is the common perception about many of his moves including his fair and nair to some extent. Many people think G&W can only wall because of this and his relatively slow attack speed. And this is true at middle range. But as soon as opponents are popped up into the air (flub-fair ->dtilt, uptilt, jab-> upthrow, up+B) he can combo very hard and for large amounts of percent. Uair is excellent in keeping opponents in the air and can be used in conjunction with a hit or miss up+b until you can position a strong fair or nair.
Up throw also leads easily into judgment if DI is predicted correctly, which is pretty good now. In my opinion, the recent 2.5 changes have made up for the move's randomness. You have a 1/7 chance of an instant KO on most characters around 20% on your first hammer because the first one can't be a 2 or a 1. Furthermore, some of the lesser numbers can be useful or even desired. 4 and 6 are horizontal spikes. 5 can tack on 30% in three linking hits. 7 is stronger than parachute and heals you, potentially twice on hit due to the dropped apple. 3 breaks shields instantly, even when power-shielded, I believe. Even a low number like 2 dazes the opponent for about 1-1.5 seconds on ground letting you go for a quick smash, grab, or another hammer.
Also, d-throw tech chase is definitely a powerful tool, although I don't utilize it very well. On successful reads, they can lead to hammers, dsmash, DACUS, fair or nair, fsmash, or regrab, all powerful kill options excluding the last one. In conjunction with his other throws, specifically u-throw, it serves as a tech trap underneath platforms. If your opponent techs in preparation for the d-throw, they cannot tech on the platform from a u-throw (due to the 40 frame teching window in project m) leading into a parachute. If they wait to tech on the platform and you d-throw instead, you can jab reset->regrab, hammer, or smash attack.
And as always, G&W's huge, powerful, lingering hitboxes let him edgeguard aggressively and easily. His great vertical recovery means he can return to stage fairly easily as well.
tl:dr, G&W is perfectly viable, maybe not high tier but certainly not the worst character in the game. That would be Ness [UNSUBSTANTIATED STATEMENT]
Hey, my tag is Nap. I'm a long time lurker but I was inspired to make an account in order to dispel some common and I believe inaccurate assumptions used to shelf G&W on the bottom slot on many tier lists. Many seem to place him at the bottom simply because others do so or maybe because of the lack of character information. For some, it has even become a meme unsubstantiated by fact or serious playtesting. But because I don't want to resort to unsupported theory-crafting, I'll start with some footage.
Here are some friendlies I played with my roommate, metroid, as G&W against his Ike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx2Z6zDXSOI&list=UUi6VKtbbRld-ecDt7ANgNNw&index=1
I am certainly not on the same level as metroid and to many, I am probably a scrub, but I believe that some of these matches might demonstrate some of G&W's strengths and counter some of the misinformation I have seen in smashboards about P:M G&W. Quick note, I play with tap jump off, which I believe is almost necessary to use some of G&W's tools consistently.
1.) "G&W's recovery is terrible."
I strongly disagree. His up+B is quick, covers a huge vertical distance, and has a very generous sweetspot that protects him from almost any on stage edge guarding if done perfectly (except for ike's eruption and Charizard's nair...) It wasn't even that bad in melee. But in P:M, it can be angled forward, which decreases the "pull-down" that was in melee and he can double jump afterwards. This is huge. It makes it less predictable and linear as well as drastically increases his horizontal recovery. In addition , he can protect himself when he lands on stage by throwing out an aerial. I honestly believe it to be one of the better recoveries in the game.
2.) "Killed way too easily."
His light weight and floatiness certainly don't help and he doesn't have the drift jigglypuff has so I sort of do agree on this point. But he does have one of the best panic buttons in the game in his up+b which works almost like an aerial bowser fortress. It's a quick hitbox that ejects him away from his opponent and helps him restore to neutral. His lingering aerial hitboxes, his bair for example, can protect him from characters looking to punish him on his way down. And since he can use his double jump afterwards, he can often avoid punishment when this move is done in the air. He's super light, but opponents can't always rely on him to be comboed easily.
3.)"Lacks reliable kill power."
G&W is a ****ing cannon. His smashes have absurd kill power although they are admittedly unreliable and situational. I feel like this is the common perception about many of his moves including his fair and nair to some extent. Many people think G&W can only wall because of this and his relatively slow attack speed. And this is true at middle range. But as soon as opponents are popped up into the air (flub-fair ->dtilt, uptilt, jab-> upthrow, up+B) he can combo very hard and for large amounts of percent. Uair is excellent in keeping opponents in the air and can be used in conjunction with a hit or miss up+b until you can position a strong fair or nair.
Up throw also leads easily into judgment if DI is predicted correctly, which is pretty good now. In my opinion, the recent 2.5 changes have made up for the move's randomness. You have a 1/7 chance of an instant KO on most characters around 20% on your first hammer because the first one can't be a 2 or a 1. Furthermore, some of the lesser numbers can be useful or even desired. 4 and 6 are horizontal spikes. 5 can tack on 30% in three linking hits. 7 is stronger than parachute and heals you, potentially twice on hit due to the dropped apple. 3 breaks shields instantly, even when power-shielded, I believe. Even a low number like 2 dazes the opponent for about 1-1.5 seconds on ground letting you go for a quick smash, grab, or another hammer.
Also, d-throw tech chase is definitely a powerful tool, although I don't utilize it very well. On successful reads, they can lead to hammers, dsmash, DACUS, fair or nair, fsmash, or regrab, all powerful kill options excluding the last one. In conjunction with his other throws, specifically u-throw, it serves as a tech trap underneath platforms. If your opponent techs in preparation for the d-throw, they cannot tech on the platform from a u-throw (due to the 40 frame teching window in project m) leading into a parachute. If they wait to tech on the platform and you d-throw instead, you can jab reset->regrab, hammer, or smash attack.
And as always, G&W's huge, powerful, lingering hitboxes let him edgeguard aggressively and easily. His great vertical recovery means he can return to stage fairly easily as well.
tl:dr, G&W is perfectly viable, maybe not high tier but certainly not the worst character in the game. That would be Ness [UNSUBSTANTIATED STATEMENT]
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
I am also a scrub, but I feel as though the critique of gdubs is pretty accurate. His largest problem is getting killed too quickly, but that can be easily rectified by his other moves. He's a glass cannon, with all the flaws and benefits that come with it, and certainly not last on the tier list. He is a character that looks gimmicky but is actually one of the deeper characters in the game, whereas a character that looks deep is often rather gimmicky (coughlinkcoughlucaryucough)
Also, why the large discrepancies on placement of sanic hedhog?
Also, why the large discrepancies on placement of sanic hedhog?
0RLY
A great conversation filler at bars and parties
Sonic has some difficult matchups where he loses hard because all his options are fairly similar, and thus losing to meaty attacks and such. And others where the opponent has no options to deal with all that spinning.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Yay nap.
Honestly, if you gave GnW a good roll I would be 100% okay with him.
His biggest problems with his game chalks up to two or three things mainly:
1. He is light/dies early.
2. He has crappy defensive options that aren't WDOOS or Up-BOOS. (he also struggles to grab kinda OOS, seriously test it)
3. His really good moves take a while to come out.
Honestly, if you gave GnW a good roll I would be 100% okay with him.
His biggest problems with his game chalks up to two or three things mainly:
1. He is light/dies early.
2. He has crappy defensive options that aren't WDOOS or Up-BOOS. (he also struggles to grab kinda OOS, seriously test it)
3. His really good moves take a while to come out.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
I look at G&W similar to how I look at ROB.
ROB looks to have awesome defense options, but they actually suck upon any further examination and he's got a horrible time dealing with juggling and aggression. This is combined with ROB's awful approaching and offensive options.
G&W looks to have awesome offensive options in having hugely damaging smash attacks and an over-b rest (potentially), but they actually suck upon further examination. His throws can be great but he has trouble getting grabs, he can't shield pressure very well, etc., etc. This is all combined with incredibly poor defensive options.
I think if the G&W players found out some guaranteed combos and some easy approaches they could get some people on their side, but as long as G&W is relying on an opening being presented rather than created he's forever a bottom feeder.
ROB looks to have awesome defense options, but they actually suck upon any further examination and he's got a horrible time dealing with juggling and aggression. This is combined with ROB's awful approaching and offensive options.
G&W looks to have awesome offensive options in having hugely damaging smash attacks and an over-b rest (potentially), but they actually suck upon further examination. His throws can be great but he has trouble getting grabs, he can't shield pressure very well, etc., etc. This is all combined with incredibly poor defensive options.
I think if the G&W players found out some guaranteed combos and some easy approaches they could get some people on their side, but as long as G&W is relying on an opening being presented rather than created he's forever a bottom feeder.
Vashimus
Smash Master
Like I said before. No one wants to admit their character is the worst. It's just how it is. Human nature. So lately I've been taking these kinds of things with grains of salt.
Also, LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP, how are Link and Lucario "gimmicky"? All of their tools ultimately aid their gameplan and are rather straight forward. I wouldn't really call either of them deep at all, although Lucario mains make him out to be. So yeah, you're gonna have to explain that one to me.
I don't think any characters are gimmicky in this game, only moves are. Here's one off the top of my head. Lucas' Offense Up. OU, I personally find to be gimmicky since it doesn't add much to his gameplay to the point where it would hurt him it was taken away or replaced. It doesn't serve much purpose, since the PMBR could've simply just increased the power of Lucas' Smash attacks or just give him more killing power overall if that's what they were going for. It's a move that disguises itself as an asset instead of just giving him the improvement in the first place. It's just there.
Also, LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP, how are Link and Lucario "gimmicky"? All of their tools ultimately aid their gameplan and are rather straight forward. I wouldn't really call either of them deep at all, although Lucario mains make him out to be. So yeah, you're gonna have to explain that one to me.
I don't think any characters are gimmicky in this game, only moves are. Here's one off the top of my head. Lucas' Offense Up. OU, I personally find to be gimmicky since it doesn't add much to his gameplay to the point where it would hurt him it was taken away or replaced. It doesn't serve much purpose, since the PMBR could've simply just increased the power of Lucas' Smash attacks or just give him more killing power overall if that's what they were going for. It's a move that disguises itself as an asset instead of just giving him the improvement in the first place. It's just there.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Thank you Spam_Arrows. I disagree with you on characters (Obviously) but at least you're actually sharing your thoughts.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Vash, I readily admit that GnW (my main) is bad. I just think that his badness isn't exactly far away from the next level of badness in a comparative setting.
Sanity's_Theif
Smash Ace
This
My buddy does, though to be honest we're not super good, I'll upload videos anyways
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
DMG, why do you think it's bad apart from everybody says so? I would like to see your logic here. I already listed my reasons for thinking otherwise (a combination of distance and options) but I can elaborate.
GW's retention of his second jump can allow him to "stall" his recover before and after the parachute. Also, he can recover with three different options in most situations. He can go high and use his second jump to avoid retaliation. He can go right at the lip to throw a quick up-air or other aerial as a mix up to his other option, going low and sweet spotting the edge with a grab range larger than his body (from melee).
I usually play against metroid's Ike, Charizard, Wolf, and other characters he feels like playtesting but I thought I mentioned that in my post. Admittedly, I do die a lot (Ike in particular is tricky due to his eruption forcing me to go high a lot), but that's usually just me choosing a bad option against a superior player. But I almost never get gimped and metroid has to try very hard to protect the ledge from me while playing other characters. I also had footage if you wanted to see it in practice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx2Z6zDXSOI
For example in match 3 around 5:50 onwards, there's this silly aether fireman exchange that I would not have survived if I was any other character.
Also, lvl 100 magikarp, you summarized how I feel about G&W pretty accurately. I will finish destroying my credibility by saying I think he is one of the better designed characters that the PMBR has churned out. None of his moves seem slapped on to address a specific issue in his overall design. It feels very organic and natural because of it.
And Juushichi, I agree 100 percent on the rolling thing. I have very few items on my G&W wishlist but that is at the top.
GW's retention of his second jump can allow him to "stall" his recover before and after the parachute. Also, he can recover with three different options in most situations. He can go high and use his second jump to avoid retaliation. He can go right at the lip to throw a quick up-air or other aerial as a mix up to his other option, going low and sweet spotting the edge with a grab range larger than his body (from melee).
I usually play against metroid's Ike, Charizard, Wolf, and other characters he feels like playtesting but I thought I mentioned that in my post. Admittedly, I do die a lot (Ike in particular is tricky due to his eruption forcing me to go high a lot), but that's usually just me choosing a bad option against a superior player. But I almost never get gimped and metroid has to try very hard to protect the ledge from me while playing other characters. I also had footage if you wanted to see it in practice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx2Z6zDXSOI
For example in match 3 around 5:50 onwards, there's this silly aether fireman exchange that I would not have survived if I was any other character.
Also, lvl 100 magikarp, you summarized how I feel about G&W pretty accurately. I will finish destroying my credibility by saying I think he is one of the better designed characters that the PMBR has churned out. None of his moves seem slapped on to address a specific issue in his overall design. It feels very organic and natural because of it.
And Juushichi, I agree 100 percent on the rolling thing. I have very few items on my G&W wishlist but that is at the top.
G&W is fine at dealing with spiking (actually, mostly Meteoring. He's amazing at dealing with Meteors, but even gods will tend to die to spikes), it's the horizontal aspect that he lacks a ton of. People that send him offstage at not very high angles tend to put him in a rough spot. I'm not saying it's one of the worst, but there are quite a few I'd take over his (the fast fall aspect also doesn't help him when trying to make it back but that's more minor).
OkamiBW
Smash Champion
Yo, everyone. If you main a character, please go input your feedback on the polls put up by DvarakElt. He doesn't have enough data to continue, though we're already halfway through. You can always respond to the previous matchups by clicking Show in the hidden portion of the post. Thanks.
POLLS!
POLLS!
inb4 some noob saying she doesn't main a character
Vashimus
Smash Master
You implying women are noobs, Okami?
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
Maybe not gimmicky per se, but more just shallow.Like I said before. No one wants to admit their character is the worst. It's just how it is. Human nature. So lately I've been taking these kinds of things with grains of salt.
Also, LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP, how are Link and Lucario "gimmicky"? All of their tools ultimately aid their gameplan and are rather straight forward. I wouldn't really call either of them deep at all, although Lucario mains make him out to be. So yeah, you're gonna have to explain that one to me.
OkamiBW
Smash Champion
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Nap, you should go to the GnW boards too. Met linked us your matches vs him there too.
humble
Smash Ace
Which characters do you guys see a general consensus emerging on in terms of rough placement? I think it'd be kind of interesting to aggregate the lists people have assembled and note the average deviance on placement, and see which characters people agree most on.
From what I've seen, Fox and Falco have the top two spots locked down on most every list, and Sheik or Sheilda rounds out the top 3. Jiggs, Marth, and Peach bounce around a bit, but generally the consensus is they're still solidly high tier. Almost every list has Pit and Mario as locks for high tier, some of the more stable positioning it seems. Things get a bit more blurry after that, other then a few exceptions like the propensity for GnW to fall to the bottom, there seems to be a much broader spectrum of possibility based upon differing viewpoints.
What do you guys think? After your brains sieve through all these discussions and opinions, have you noticed any common trends for character placement, or broadly shared opinions on where they stand?
From what I've seen, Fox and Falco have the top two spots locked down on most every list, and Sheik or Sheilda rounds out the top 3. Jiggs, Marth, and Peach bounce around a bit, but generally the consensus is they're still solidly high tier. Almost every list has Pit and Mario as locks for high tier, some of the more stable positioning it seems. Things get a bit more blurry after that, other then a few exceptions like the propensity for GnW to fall to the bottom, there seems to be a much broader spectrum of possibility based upon differing viewpoints.
What do you guys think? After your brains sieve through all these discussions and opinions, have you noticed any common trends for character placement, or broadly shared opinions on where they stand?
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
An actual tier list (not just speculation/shooting the breeze) this early in the development of the game/metagame will probably end up being a self-fulfilling prophecy.
#HBC | Joker
Space Marine
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Lucario being bottom of b-tier is a little.. lol. I mean, I get that he got a bit nerfed, but he's still pretty beast. I still think he's a top tier contender, or at least a high tier one.
Archangel
Smash Hero
He's still decent. Bottom of B = somewhere around IC's tier.
He's got alot of changes and they add up to make a big difference imo.
humble
Smash Ace
I can see him overtaking Peach potentially, but I agree Sheik and Marth is a bit of a stretch, the Sheik nerfs hurt, but she's still Sheik and now Zelda sucks less (though I think it's easier to say Shielda is better in theory, in practice I think pure Sheik will still be the way most people roll.) Marth and Sheik square up to most of the newcomers quite favorably, whereas Peach has problems with many of them.
I think it's pretty much entirely theorycrafting at this point trying to decide which of them will be higher (then again, it's all pretty much theorycrafting) but I'd say it's entirely reasonable to put him and Peach neck and neck in the middle of the high tier area.
Where do you think Pit stands in comparison to Melee high tier? I'm on the fence about where Pit belongs, I think we really need to see some more high level play and tournaments before being able to do anything more then guess, he's an extremely solid character who belongs in high tier, I'm just not sure where therein.
I'd guess he'll probably end up being below Puff/Sheik but above or right around Marth, in terms of comparing it to melee tiers. His approach options seem a bit meager, but then again with arguably the best projectile in the game with his arrows, he should be able to force any opponent to come to him. What're your opinions on his potential placement?
Sanity's_Theif
Smash Ace
Ok I'm not good with Ganondorf hence this video: (Ganon v G&W)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39zDvtirg4Y&list=PLCnIJNkvyokyRg0Mga8f0LsYrvk2eCcCq&index=8
My best is Link, but this isn't at my best, my friend gets all pissed off if I upload a video of me 2 or 3 stocking him and that usually ends up being vs Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stH8odO7_v0&list=PLCnIJNkvyokyRg0Mga8f0LsYrvk2eCcCq&index=9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39zDvtirg4Y&list=PLCnIJNkvyokyRg0Mga8f0LsYrvk2eCcCq&index=8
My best is Link, but this isn't at my best, my friend gets all pissed off if I upload a video of me 2 or 3 stocking him and that usually ends up being vs Link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stH8odO7_v0&list=PLCnIJNkvyokyRg0Mga8f0LsYrvk2eCcCq&index=9
I think it's that he can throw bacon out to keep to from jump off the edge to attack, and his up-B has a really annoying hitbox that seems to go through everything
humble
Smash Ace
I think Lucario will end up at the bottom of high tier or top of mid tier. I think he's currently overinflated in placement, like Sonic, because people are letting them get away with stuff they shouldn't. Lucario has solid tools, a decent projectile, a good recovery, and wombo combo potential; but he also has poor approach options and a mediocre defensive or neutral game.
Once people stop letting Lucario just dash attack his way in on them, once they realize they can stuff him, crouch cancel a lot of his shenanigans, or just play a smart spacing and neutral game, he'll drop steadily. He may be a montage waiting to happen, but it's more situational then people realize. It seems like an odd comparison to make, but I liken Lucario to Ganon, they'll pile on the damage if they get the opportunity, and will run all over you if you let them, but playing smart and knowing how to punish can limit their effectiveness.