Tier List Speculation

[Vashimus]

What he needs is 5 midair jumps.

 

[Kink-Link5]

What DeDeDe really needs is to boing when he jumps and less traction


#freeiceclimber

No but on the real at the very least one more jump would be nice for the big guy.

 

[Vashimus]

Heck, at least Charizard has a glide to make up for having only two midair jumps (granted, Charizard jumps almost as high as Falco). With DDD's poor air speed and only 3 midair jumps, he's effed when he's knocked too far horizontally. And even if he had this great recovery, he wouldn't break the game, since he still has his problems, and Up-B doesn't have armor anymore.

 

[OkamiBW]

@CountOlaf - So from your commentary on Sheik, you're basically saying she's worse. And Peach, Puff, and Marth have for all intents and purposes been made better. But she's still #3. Welp.

 

[Turazrok]

Pretty sure he can't throw waddle doos/dees/daas/duus/diis better
and can't ftilt better
or suicide swallow better
or bair wall better
and most certainly not recover better

D3s ftilt so unsafe :/

I mean Marth is prolly an overall sounder version of d3's playstyle by any means,
a spacing game revolving around gimps and grabs

 

[KayB]

Pretty sure he can't throw waddle doos/dees/daas/duus/diis better

I'll categorize that as edgeguarding and spacing. Both of which Marth does better.

and can't ftilt better

Eh. Marth has a number of poking moves that are less punishable and faster than D3's F-tilt.

or suicide swallow better

I can come up with a number of different ways of suiciding with Marth while guaranteeing a kill. Not that Marth needs it anyway.

or bair wall better

I'll categorize this as edgeguarding and spacing too. Which Marth does better.

and most certainly not recover better

They both have rather lackluster recoveries.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Am I the only one that thinks that its fine if d3 is kinda mediocre? Yeah its true that comparatively he doesn't shine in one particular area, but he does have a nice combination of a lot of decent traits. I think thats refreshing to see when you look at some of the other characters.

 

[Kink-Link5]

No way in hell is DeDeDe's recovery as bad as Marth's if only for the factor of weight alone, ignoring all the other parts that make it generally much more acceptable as a recovery.

 

[Bleck]

I'll categorize that as edgeguarding and spacing. Both of which Marth does better.

Edgeguarding and spacing is literally the crux of strategy as every single character. In fact, spacing itself is the basis of every single fighting game ever made.

Saying a character has a good spacing game is basically saying a character is just plain good, which is kind of a worthless expression.

 

[Kink-Link5]

It's pretty clear KayB meant Marth has better stage control and coverage via his ranged moves than DeDeDe has.

Which I still disagree with anyway.

It is what almost anyone means when they say "spacing game." Sonic's spacing game is also good since he can just choose when he wants to go in with his massive mobility, but it wouldn't be commonly referred to in such a way.

For all semantic purposes, yes the spacing game and the neutral game are synonymous to a degree, but connotations are made with "spacing game" that imply a range to a characters moves where neutral game is the coverall for everything about positioning and zoning.

 

[Spiffykins]

Edgeguarding and spacing is literally the crux of strategy as every single character. In fact, spacing itself is the basis of every single fighting game ever made.

Saying a character has a good spacing game is basically saying a character is just plain good, which is kind of a worthless expression.

I don't agree. Marth and Roy have the same range, but only one of them is top tier. Part of it is that Marth's sweetspots are all at the tip of his sword, which I suppose you could put under "good spacing game", but another part is how much more potent Marth's combos are. He can rack up damage very efficiently on most characters and his combos often lead directly into kills. Roy might have comparable zone control, but the reward for landing the same hits is lower. Spacing is important but it isn't the sole factor in whether a character is good.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Roy does not have anything remotely comparable to Marth's stage control lol. If he did he wouldn't be a contender for bottom 5.

And Neutral Game > Gimp combos > Damage output > Edgeguarding Capability > Recovery = Kill Percent for character viability, for all I can relate to which characters end up being good and which ones don't.

 

[Archangel]

No way in hell is DeDeDe's recovery as bad as Marth's if only for the factor of weight alone, ignoring all the other parts that make it generally much more acceptable as a recovery.

Wait....what? Do you have any idea how easy it is to just...hit DDD? Especially during his up-B...his Up-B while rising is the saddest thing about him. I can jump all the way out there and just stomp him with Falcon or something..it's just like....idk it just screams kill me....and typically I do regardless of who I'm using.

 

[Kink-Link5]

The astonishing thing about that?

It's still better than Marth's.

 

[Vashimus]

Kinky's right. Not to mention DDD's heavy so he's not getting knocked back far a lot anyway.

 

[Overswarm]

The astonishing thing about that?

It's still better than Marth's.

The end result of a bad recovery that is easily edgeguarded is death against competent opponents. It isn't a matter of degree.

 

[CountOlaf]

@CountOlaf - So from your commentary on Sheik, you're basically saying she's worse. And Peach, Puff, and Marth have for all intents and purposes been made better. But she's still #3. Welp.

I guess I should clarify. I believe that in melee, Sheik is a more viable character than jigglypuff. In project m, I don't really see how Peach, Puff, and Marth got better, especially based on what I said about them in my tier list. While Sheik was nerfed, I think Jigglypuff has to relearn many matchups, which are more important to her metagame than sheiks metagame. This will have her struggle for the early meta of project M. Once metagames and matchups begin to flesh out, Jiggs may surpass Sheik, but I'm still hesitant to say that even with a nerfed Sheik.

 

[Slashy]

I wonder if Metaknight doesn't receive any significant nerfs if he'll still dominate the roster, will Fox still be a challenge for him?

 

[DMG]

Depends. It wouldn't be a stretch to think CCing might ruin his current moveset. I can just imagine you go to Fair someone and they CC all 3 hits and then punish you. Dtilt and Ftilt would probably have to worry about that as well.

 

[Overswarm]

I'd imagine Meta Knight would play similarly to the other top tiers except with a better recovery, assuming nothing major is changed. He would obviously be able to edgeguard the majority of recoveries in the game with low risk, but if he's as light as, say, Pit, I could see Fox doing a number on him. Falco will probably destroy his approaching options as well with his lasers.

Definitely interested to see what they do.

 

[Slashy]

I'd imagine Meta Knight would play similarly to the other top tiers except with a better recovery, assuming nothing major is changed. He would obviously be able to edgeguard the majority of recoveries in the game with low risk, but if he's as light as, say, Pit, I could see Fox doing a number on him. Falco will probably destroy his approaching options as well with his lasers.

Definitely interested to see what they do.

Metaknight also has few killing moves, which will make staling a problem for him.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Not really... staling isn't nearly as much of an issue for characters in Project:M as it is in brawl. Knockback no longer directly decays. It does decay indirectly through damage decay, but brawl had that AND knockback decay, which was why the effect was so significant. That isn't the case with P:M.

 

[Vashimus]

If Meta Knight dethroned the mighty Fox, the PMBR said (or more specifically, GHNeko said) they won't nerf him unless something is stupid about his design. Good. About time someone gave the spacies a proper run for their money.

 

[Tmacc]

Bowser is low tier on way too many people's lists.

 

[Slashy]

Not really... staling isn't nearly as much of an issue for characters in Project:M as it is in brawl. Knockback no longer directly decays. It does decay indirectly through damage decay, but brawl had that AND knockback decay, which was why the effect was so significant. That isn't the case with P:M.

Yeah I know that, but I think the damage decay will greatly weaken his kill moves

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Link's grab is literally safe because you should only ever do it after two jabs. If you get jabbed by link, you get grabbed.

Ever heard of spot-dodging?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

If Meta Knight dethroned the mighty Fox, the PMBR said (or more specifically, GHNeko said) they won't nerf him unless something is stupid about his design. Good. About time someone gave the spacies a proper run for their money.

What makes you say that? He's not a Melee character...

 

[DMG]

Yeah I know that, but I think the damage decay will greatly weaken his kill moves

I think the effect of staling on MK wouldn't be that much. He's got plenty of kill moves already.

Shuttle Loop + Glide Attack
Nair
Dsmash (Both hits)
Fsmash

Not to mention edge guarding will likely be even stronger for him in Melee. The only time it would be a problem, is if in the transition his moves were tweaked to be super combo material (or outright nerfed in kill power, I imagine shuttle loop will get that treatment). What may happen is that he has to rely on horizontal kills/edge guarding a ton, because I can't imagine him threatening to kill off the ceiling with Uairs/Tornado ever happening again and I'd expect shuttle loop not to kill so well vertically.

If MK was better than Fox, then you guys goofed lol. Like if MK Dair sends people at the Sheik slap angle, then yeah you goofed.

 

[Slashy]

I think the effect of staling on MK wouldn't be that much. He's got plenty of kill moves already.

Shuttle Loop + Glide Attack
Nair
Dsmash (Both hits)
Fsmash

Not to mention edge guarding will likely be even stronger for him in Melee. The only time it would be a problem, is if in the transition his moves were tweaked to be super combo material (or outright nerfed in kill power, I imagine shuttle loop will get that treatment). What may happen is that he has to rely on horizontal kills/edge guarding a ton, because I can't imagine him threatening to kill off the ceiling with Uairs/Tornado ever happening again and I'd expect shuttle loop not to kill so well vertically.

If MK was better than Fox, then you guys goofed lol. Like if MK Dair sends people at the Sheik slap angle, then yeah you goofed.

I think Metaknight should stay the edgeguarding God, the only nerf I really think he should have is that the tornado should have the trancendent priority (whatever let's disjointed hitboxes and projectiles break it)

 

[Magus420]

The difference in kill percent of a fresh and fully staled move is like 6-9 damage. It only makes a significant difference on moves that do huge amounts of damage and kill extremely low like rest. A fully staled knee in melee stale mechanics kills only 8 damage later than a fresh knee, while in brawl stale mechanics would be about 80 damage later.

 

[Slashy]

The difference in kill percent of a fresh and fully staled move is like 6-9 damage. It only makes a significant difference on moves that do huge amounts of damage and kill extremely low like rest. A fully staled knee in melee stale mechanics kills only 8 damage later than a fresh knee, while in brawl stale mechanics would be about 80 damage later.

Can you explain priority to me? What exactly is transcendent priority?

 

[Magus420]

Transcendent priority is a stupid term that shouldn't exist.

 

[DrinkingFood]

you only get answers from magus if you ask right
you did not ask right
therefore no answer

But I'll answer as much as I know. Transcendant priority just means it doesn't interact with other hitboxes. When moves' hitboxes with non-transcendant priority collide, some kind of effect is produced, such as clanking for ground vs ground moves. Aerials and projectiles operate in other ways depending on what collides. But transcendent hitboxes produce no effect when they collide with other hitboxes. That's why you can't jab fox/falco's lasers. The hitboxes hit each other if timed right, but the hitbox just continues on it's path like nothing happened. There isn't even any hitlag experienced.

 

[OkamiBW]

I guess I should clarify. I believe that in melee, Sheik is a more viable character than jigglypuff. In project m, I don't really see how Peach, Puff, and Marth got better, especially based on what I said about them in my tier list. While Sheik was nerfed, I think Jigglypuff has to relearn many matchups, which are more important to her metagame than sheiks metagame. This will have her struggle for the early meta of project M. Once metagames and matchups begin to flesh out, Jiggs may surpass Sheik, but I'm still hesitant to say that even with a nerfed Sheik.

Peach has:
-better jab linking (her jab2 into jab is faster now, while her jab into jab2 is the same)
-she can Aerial Glide Toss turnips, which means if she has a turnip, she can go the height of her double jump while still having her double jump
-U-tilt is useful
-her Up-B goes significantly higher (which is major)
{there's some other stuff like F-smash cycling, but tbh I'm not sure how it works, so yeah}

Puff gets a super long range Reverse Aerial Rush B-air, which means she can basically cover a ton of ground while moving forward with B-air.

Marth has RAR wavedash to grab the edge which is a much better option to grab the edge than what he had in Melee. Sheik now has it too, but short hop reverse needle cancel is solid anyways. He can also grab the edge backwards from his Up-B. (which Sheik can do as well now, though I'm not sure which is more useful despite maining Sheik and Marth being my 3rd best)

 

[DMG]

It's probably more useful for Marth, because Sheik would tend to grab the edge straight vertically anyways. If she were stuck under a lip or was diagonal to the stage, she could use Upb and drift horizontally a bit anyways before traveling.

 

[KayB]

It's true though that Puff has a little more trouble in adapting than Sheik with some of the new changes made in PM.

Puff vs Ike for example.

 

[DMG]

Or Puff vs Bowser/Pit/Wario

 

[Deleted member]

The end result of a bad recovery that is easily edgeguarded is death against competent opponents. It isn't a matter of degree.

pretty much. marth's recovery is way better than DDDs if only because DDD using up B is like getting a 10 second license to style on him for a kill.

 

[Juushichi]

There are a lot of times that I wish Charizard and DDD's dthrows got switched.

Good lord do I hate Zard's Dthrow. Also, DDD's ftilt should be as safe as 2.1 Ike's was.

 

[DMG]

No one should have an Ftilt that safe