Tier List Speculation

[Overswarm]

His B-air (and every other attack, for that matter) has the same knockback and damage values as Melee. The only thing that could be making this seem weaker is the abundance/increased viability of heavier characters, since weight affects how far victims are sent by all attacks. That would also make U-Throw -> U-air seem less reliable (coupled with the aforementioned SCD glitch affecting his double jump), as it doesn't work on heavier characters unless they fall relatively fast due to how Fox's U-throw's animation length is affected by victim weight. Any inconsistencies in Fox's gameplay between Melee and Project M are due to coding limitations and are not intentional.

That could make sense.

Disagree on the ROB thing though; I watched JCaesar's ROB and it was my first clue that ROB was bad. I mean a Sonic got 2nd at Apex, and Sonic is bad too. You can literally just hold hitboxes out and he has to trick you into being open or you have to make a mistake for him to hit you with a spin dash, and Wizzrobe literally sat there and did a spin dash nonstop until he decided to attack his opponents and often hit with it.

Not taking away people's victories or anything but I think the metagame is pretty shallow for Project M right now and rightly so.

Remember, when Brawl came out I got first with ROB. Over, and over, and over, and over again. ROB was still bad, people just didn't know when to shield and how to edgeguard and how to punish his blindspots. Once people figured it out ROB disappeared from the list of viable characters.

 

[Strong Badam]

Who do you think is the worst in 2.5 Strong Bad? Not that anyone should jump to any conclusions about one character head's personal thoughts on character balance, just curious.

I dunno, probably Squirtle. He's got some good points, but so does every character lol. I've spent a decent amount of time with just about every character but Squirtle's like the only one that I just can't seem to get things going with.

 

[SpiderMad]

I would agree, then again though I wouldn't have guessed Sonic to be as good as he apparently is based on me not being good with'em.

Otherwise my guess would be Ivysaur for worst. I'd even put Lucas kind of down there =/, and then possibly Pikachu/Rob/Jiggs/Ike/ZSS/Luigi O_O

 

[Deleted member]

Well I beat several top players and got 5th at Apex with the "worst character ever" in Project M, so I guess I'm just gahlike.

i'm with you, i don't think the character is bad, probably just right. you've definitely gotten better over the last year though too, so that's part of it.

on a side note, i'm glad to see you boosting into your opponent less. i remember saying that you could just choose not to do that and trade favorably instead with rob's good normals for better effect and it looks like you're doing that more recently. /tangent

edit: as far as i can tell, the worst characters i've seen so far are GAW, ness, and lucas. no particular order and i'm not too familiar with a good portion of the cast yet.

i just downloaded PM for myself like 2 days ago. the CPUs are way harder than most of the players i played against at apex.

 

[JCaesar]

Yeah I've learned that boost aerials are pretty terrible as a direct approach (though they are good for crossing up and as an occasional mixup if your opponent is off balance). I mostly just try to zone now in the neutral game, and abuse gyro. And land grabs whenever I can, since ROB's grab game is stupid good and easily secures kills on the entire cast around 100%.

I still have some bad habits though and make a LOT of technical mistakes, so I still have a lot I need to improve on.

 

[DrinkingFood]

JCz come on just break ROB's gyros for us
I mean I don't think he's terrible, he's pretty respectable on melee terms but come on diddy gets two bananas, why can't ROB have something stupid good
Or maybe it could just not die almost instantly after a throw once it settles... just like diddy's bananas

 

[Vashimus]

And land grabs whenever I can, since ROB's grab game is stupid good and easily secures kills on the entire cast around 100%.

Told ya Bubba! ROB's down-throw man.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yo ROB's down throw is actually really good
coolest thing ever is knockback-resetting with a gyro on a platform from a dthrow
free follow up

 

[Kink-Link5]

JCz come on just break ROB's gyros for us
I mean I don't think he's terrible, he's pretty respectable on melee terms but come on diddy gets two bananas, why can't ROB have something stupid good
Or maybe it could just not die almost instantly after a throw once it settles... just like diddy's bananas

Respin a gyro that you're currently holding.

Come on ****er you know it makes sense

 

[DMG]

That could make sense.

Disagree on the ROB thing though; I watched JCaesar's ROB and it was my first clue that ROB was bad. I mean a Sonic got 2nd at Apex, and Sonic is bad too. You can literally just hold hitboxes out and he has to trick you into being open or you have to make a mistake for him to hit you with a spin dash, and Wizzrobe literally sat there and did a spin dash nonstop until he decided to attack his opponents and often hit with it.

Not taking away people's victories or anything but I think the metagame is pretty shallow for Project M right now and rightly so.

Remember, when Brawl came out I got first with ROB. Over, and over, and over, and over again. ROB was still bad, people just didn't know when to shield and how to edgeguard and how to punish his blindspots. Once people figured it out ROB disappeared from the list of viable characters.

I disagree with the Sonic part a bit. Although Sonic "loses" to hitboxes pretty often, the way he can play vs people is... well not going in lol. Being able to stuff him always with Peach Nairs or Bair means much less if he's not forced to run straight into them at the same timing. People have cooldowns and opportunities where they are vulnerable. Given his speed, it's not a stretch to see Sonic players sit there and wait for opportunities. If your characters most effective option vs Sonic is to back away and set up walls, and his best option is to wait until you stop doing that, that doesn't sound like too bad of a situation for Sonic lol. If the other guy messes up and drops the lead, then what? If it's not recommended for your character to really approach Sonic, then you're boned.


Plenty of people have hitboxes and sex kicks and walls to **** Sonic, but he tends to control when you "should" throw them out. That control, becomes pretty powerful on quite a few stages or vs quite a few MU's, if the other person is to fall behind.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Respin a gyro that you're currently holding.

Come on ****er you know it makes sense

That actually makes perfect sense
but it hardly matters since gyros just disappear once they settle after being thrown anyways
That really gets to me, that unless I want to shoot out another one, I have to work to save my gyro before it disappears so I can harass the opponent with it.
Trying to work more low boost->perfect waveland into my game to safely retrieve gyros. Would be nice to not have such a stringent timeframe on them though >.> they can't even be re-positioned for very long once picked up because they just vanish... being able to charge a held one would be a very reasonable way to deal with that, although I imagine it would be difficult to code, doesn't seem like articles are things that are easy to work with.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Alternative/additionally: Uncharged gyro shot is air dodge cancelable and allows R.O.B. to stay right on top of his top.

I don't think two gyros is a very desirable function for the move personally.

 

[Overswarm]

I disagree with the Sonic part a bit. Although Sonic "loses" to hitboxes pretty often, the way he can play vs people is... well not going in lol. Being able to stuff him always with Peach Nairs or Bair means much less if he's not forced to run straight into them at the same timing. People have cooldowns and opportunities where they are vulnerable. Given his speed, it's not a stretch to see Sonic players sit there and wait for opportunities. If your characters most effective option vs Sonic is to back away and set up walls, and his best option is to wait until you stop doing that, that doesn't sound like too bad of a situation for Sonic lol. If the other guy messes up and drops the lead, then what? If it's not recommended for your character to really approach Sonic, then you're boned.


Plenty of people have hitboxes and sex kicks and walls to **** Sonic, but he tends to control when you "should" throw them out. That control, becomes pretty powerful on quite a few stages or vs quite a few MU's, if the other person is to fall behind.

This is true, and I find Sonic actually does very well against the space animals (which gives him merit).

But when it comes to characters like Wario that can u-tilt as a response to a homing attack or Bowser that can just fortress into a spin dash or the many people that can just dash attack into sonic's spin dash the moment they see it just forces Sonic to rely on other's mistakes.

He's got the means to do it, but it's still relying on mistakes. And against someone like Sheik who doesn't have much lag and has needles to slow Sonic down, it's not even a contest.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah I've learned that boost aerials are pretty terrible as a direct approach (though they are good for crossing up and as an occasional mixup if your opponent is off balance). I mostly just try to zone now in the neutral game, and abuse gyro. And land grabs whenever I can, since ROB's grab game is stupid good and easily secures kills on the entire cast around 100%.

I still have some bad habits though and make a LOT of technical mistakes, so I still have a lot I need to improve on.

I can't help you with tech skill or char specific stuff, but I can probably watch your videos in the past month and find your holes in your neutral game.

also the CPU sheik in this game is a monster. easily harder than any human i've played so far.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Mow you should enter doubles with CPU Sheik.

Also pro status throw mixup with Sheik: Grab the opponent then roll the control stick between back and down repeatedly. If you don't know which way you're going to throw, there's no way in hell your opponent will know which way to DI.

 

[Deleted member]

i pretty much always downthrow. unless i'm by the edge at a low % and i backthrow, at which point i become heavily disappointed/depressed.

i think i have yet to use the other 2 intentionally.

 

[Juushichi]

Bthrow as a mixup is absolutely ridiculous, Umbreon. I think you would love it.

Playing JC in ROB dittos at APEX was fun, but I was getting bopped really hard. ROB's both solid and annoying.

 

[Deleted member]

i don't like mix-ups, but that may be for some other time. i'll cover sheik's briefly.

you grab, and you throw. at this point, sheik's throws are fast enough where the opponent can DI them, but not well and certainly not in response to whatever throw you're using. this makes it a 50/50 for your opponent. however, if you only downthrow, your opponent knows it and can DI away with some consistency, again with restrictions based on reflexes. in this case, it's still basically a 50/50 as long as you throw immediately after grabbing. however, sheik handles opponents in front of her MUCH better than behind her, and then if i backthrow i still have to have good reflexes myself to choose my next move. this breaks it down into a tree of options:

downthrow > opponent DIs incorrectly > you're still sheik

downthrow > opponent DIs correctly on a guess (more likely) or reflexes (less likely) > follow-ups are weaker, but opponent is still in front of you and forced to land/tech so still in a bad position given sheik's ground speed or they're just in a bad position for being closer to the edge of a stage

backthrow > opponent DIs incorrectly > you're still sheik but she doesn't cover opponents behind her as well and pinning the opponent is much less certain

backthrow > opponent DIs correctly > makes me wish I just had a regular backthrow for when it mattered > usually nothing happens and it wasn't worth the grab

even if all of these occurred about equally, and even if i were better at pinning the opponent out of a backthrow, downthrow is still better IMO because the average return is going to be higher. this isn't even counting how much fastfallers don't care about backthrow, people that swing the stick in circles wildly when thrown hoping that you can't react back, how dangerous it is to backthrow opponents at low % (very) when they're willing to DI into you, or the time advantage by forcing the opponent to tech.

my idea of a mix-up is when i downthrow and they go off stage is to do needle harassment immediately to catch recoveries that don't wait for it. which, by the way, is devastating.

i actually like the faster downthrow as a compromise to removing the CG. while it makes her worse in singles, the amount she gets worse is acceptable, and the speed of the throw makes it more skill testing. more importantly, it makes sheik much better for teams. i just think her backthrow is buns and i wish it were just her regular melee throw.

 

[DMG]

This is true, and I find Sonic actually does very well against the space animals (which gives him merit).

But when it comes to characters like Wario that can u-tilt as a response to a homing attack or Bowser that can just fortress into a spin dash or the many people that can just dash attack into sonic's spin dash the moment they see it just forces Sonic to rely on other's mistakes.

He's got the means to do it, but it's still relying on mistakes. And against someone like Sheik who doesn't have much lag and has needles to slow Sonic down, it's not even a contest.

Well Sheik is... Sheik lol. Good projectiles throw a wrench into the idea of Sonic just waiting there, and certain stage choices can prevent him from having the room to breathe or wait. Bowser Upb is also pretty unique and is bound to **** him up (including CC Upb in case you somehow still got hit).

 

[Overswarm]

Didn't her u-throw in Pal combo fast fallers at mid %? I haven't really touched her u-throw in M, I've just stuck to d-throw / b-throw as well.

 

[DMG]

I don't think so. You may be thinking about Uair in PAL.

Uthrow is veryyyyy tight on the window to punish, and may only apply to Spacies at very specific %'s.

 

[Deleted member]

upthrow is fantastic on fastfallers under like battlefield side platforms. you can just do terrible things to them. i just haven't used it much because we've been experimenting with the not-starter stages for positioning/technical purposes, particularly hyrule 64.

sheik is definitely still high tier. tops? maybe. at least high.

 

[Overswarm]

upthrow is fantastic on fastfallers under like battlefield side platforms. you can just do terrible things to them. i just haven't used it much because we've been experimenting with the not-starter stages for positioning/technical purposes, particularly hyrule 64.

sheik is definitely still high tier. tops? maybe. at least high.

I think her ability to just poop on virtually every new member of the cast, her grab game being good in a big CC environment, the majority of the new stages being exactly her kind of stages, and the fact that Zelda is actually decent now (assuming ICs vs. Sheik will be the same) pretty much guarantee her a top spot.

She might have a few tough matchups (ICs, spacies potentially, maybe some unknown entity) but even in Melee she could still deal with Foxes and Falcos.

I guess it really depends on what characters will be the tippity top ones and how well Sheik does against them.

 

[DMG]

Sheik be good.

 

[Hashtag]

Sonic edge guarding is kinda ez mode too lol. HA someone, and if they are forced to pause, literally HA them again

Lol, well if u use a character with a decent recovery, u can usually use a move that beats out homing attack if you expect your opponent to actually use it.

Or u can change ur momentum by fast falling or using you DJ at the right time. I honestly believe people just need to get used to fighting sonic.

 

[Deleted member]

actually, i disagree with most of those opinions. i think she does fine vs fox and falco, her "good MUs" are mostly overstated, and i have no real desire to switch to zelda when i'm usually camping and imo sheik is better at camping. the stages thing is obviously true though lol

 

[Overswarm]

actually, i disagree with most of those opinions. i think she does fine vs fox and falco, her "good MUs" are mostly overstated, and i have no real desire to switch to zelda when i'm usually camping and imo sheik is better at camping. the stages thing is obviously true though lol

I'd have to hold opinion until ICs come out, but down+b is still Zelda's best move.

She does fine vs. Fox and Falco, but no one would ever counterpick Sheik to gain an advantage vs. Fox/Falco. Sheik's auto-gimps discovered late in Melee off of a lot of common off-stage situations will definitely help her, but I still feel that, at least for new Sheik mains, she has a bit of an uphill battle against them. Not enough to really do much.

Have to disagree on the good MUs being overstated though. That girl can destroy her some Brawl characters.


What stages do you think are best for Sheik in M out of the new ones?

 

[Deleted member]

What stages do you think are best for Sheik in M out of the new ones?

absolutely anything that lets her crouch and have her be lower than an adjacent part of the stage. metal cavern, halberd on the not-deck part, castle siege most of the time somewhere, rumble falls is more 50/50, skyloft because of the middle, fountain when the side platforms are low, rainbow cruise on the ship, pirate ship.

all of the jank levels because it's ****ing sheik. hyrule 64, saffron city, melee temple, onett, japes, fourside.

and then she's still great on all of the neutrals.

so yeah basically she's amazing on 75% of the stages in the game.

if there were any stages with a million edges like MK2 she'd be great on those too.

 

[regal68]

I definitely don't agree that ROB, Zard, Ivy, Wario, and Luigi are bottom at all. The first three get melee sheik follow ups on grabs. Ivy is all but guaranteed fairs/bairs off throws, they chain together for free, and they cover areas comparable to Ike's fair (not as long though). Her jab and dtilt are godlike and has one of the best projectile games (razor leaf is excellent and seed bomb is the only move of its kind, its like having infinite bombs to throw upwards only they can guarantee you a mostly charged smash).

Zard gets free kill moves off throws at 50-80% and gets a free kill with seismic toss at 100% regardless of DI on any stage with platforms. The fact that he can get launchers off of his throws makes him terrifying as he has easily the scariest vertical combo potential that is only rivaled by falco on YS. Nair is the only move OoS that rewards you from facing your opponent with your back and is only rivaled by D3 in range and is the only move that covers such a large area. Ftilt is like Ike's pre-nerf. and dtilt ****ing kills at 40% with the sweet spot even if you have your jumps and up b for most of the cast (on/near the edge).

I don't see how anyone can say ROB and Wario are low/bottom tier after seeing Jcaes and Reflex continually annihilate people (they obviously have options and rob is easily one of the best gimpers with his recovery and fair coupled with very strong fthrow/bthrow at low %s). And anyone who says Luigi is bottom tier obviously never played melee. Of course sheik is still amazing. The only things that have changed is her dthrow being nerfed, fair nerfed?, and bthrow buffedish?. Dthrow is still an excellent techchase with WDing but now she has a bthrow mixup like marth that gets her free ftilts (although it isn't great setting up for gimps anymore ). uthrow is too laggy to combo from unless you're chaining spacies at high %. The ability to running usmash greatly benefited sheik: you get a free one on any poorly DI'd dthrow on reaction and these will chain 2-3 times depending on character or give you utilts/uairs.

I dont think Peach is that high anymore. The majority of the new characters seem to do very well against her (I could be wrong but they seem extremely hard to deal with). ie Mario, Ike, maybe lucario, diddy, pit, link, sonic, squirtle, zard, ivy, etc. basically people she gets severely outranged by like marth or who are much better at camping/zoning than her.

Umbreon, I don't know why you mention 6 stages that would never be played in tourney and a few others that aren't CPs anymore though I agree with you. Rumble falls is a teribble stage and rewards camping under platforms (probably link's best stage) and so is Wario Ware. Too many of the stages are extremely polarizing IMO (CPs can be 10x worse than any in melee).

 

[Deleted member]

a rule set and subsequently its stage list is just a medium of competition that players mutually agree supports the legitimacy of results. the opinion of whatever defines mutually agreeable is prone to change at any time. it's better to be inclusive in anticipation of those potential changes, or simply to further expand character knowledge. for example, me saying that sheik is good on saffron city is certainly indicative of her ability in a holistic manner.

i disagree that sheik outright beats the brawl characters. many of them are quite fast and tricky to pin, retaining many of their movement characteristics from brawl. wario's aerial mobility, squirtle's ground sliding, samus's raw acrobats, etc. are quite difficult for sheik to manage in a traditional sense and go a long way to exploiting her relatively weak approach game.

 

[Archangel]

This place suddenly died.....Any new tier updates?

 

[Overswarm]

I'm curious what people think of Pit. Pit and Diddy are two characters that I feel can be good but would require a lot of effort. I'm unfamiliar with Brawl Pit so going to this one is an uphill battle, but he's got a great aerial/ground chase game with his over-B and at higher % hitting someone with an arrow pushes them off stage, nearly guaranteeing a kill and it's pretty safe to attempt.

Does anyone have Pit players near them that make Pit look actually good?

 

[Archangel]

I'm curious what people think of Pit. Pit and Diddy are two characters that I feel can be good but would require a lot of effort. I'm unfamiliar with Brawl Pit so going to this one is an uphill battle, but he's got a great aerial/ground chase game with his over-B and at higher % hitting someone with an arrow pushes them off stage, nearly guaranteeing a kill and it's pretty safe to attempt.

Does anyone have Pit players near them that make Pit look actually good?

Pit clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6HY6fX0Jk#t=0m18s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6HY6fX0Jk#t=0m49s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6HY6fX0Jk#t=2m07s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6HY6fX0Jk#t=2m37s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6HY6fX0Jk#t=4m04s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6HY6fX0Jk#t=4m22s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6HY6fX0Jk#t=4m50s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6HY6fX0Jk#t=5m08s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6HY6fX0Jk#t=5m30s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6HY6fX0Jk#t=5m40s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6HY6fX0Jk#t=5m54s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6HY6fX0Jk#t=6m15s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6HY6fX0Jk#t=6m43s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6HY6fX0Jk#t=6m50s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A6HY6fX0Jk#t=8m04s


you can kind of see what he can do...sort of..idk

I think he requires a basic amount of understanding before you can play him well though. After that though you should do well with him assuming you understand the basics of competitive smashing strategy...etc...etc.

 

[Hylian]

I'm curious what people think of Pit. Pit and Diddy are two characters that I feel can be good but would require a lot of effort. I'm unfamiliar with Brawl Pit so going to this one is an uphill battle, but he's got a great aerial/ground chase game with his over-B and at higher % hitting someone with an arrow pushes them off stage, nearly guaranteeing a kill and it's pretty safe to attempt.

Does anyone have Pit players near them that make Pit look actually good?

After watching armada play pit and picking up pit myself I think he's a really good upper tiered character that is viable against any character in the game. He has some of the most insane combos on the entire cast, great recovery and good kill potential from combos(though he can struggle when you get out of combo range sort of like marth)

This is 2.1 not 2.5 but it gives you and idea of some of the things pit can do:

[yt]GGoVh93sTqU[/yt]

 

[Deleted member]

so far i'm under the impression that pit is pretty good overall. def in the upper half of the game.

 

[DMG]

Not that much of a fan of Diddy. He was a monster defensively, don't feel the same offensively. A few things feel off: Uair and Uthrow should probably send people more straight up. Uair's angle is almost telling you to land on people with it, so you can L cancel and go run/chase them with a Fair. I almost don't even want to hit people on platforms above me with the move due to how far it can send them away from me. Uthrow can CG Spacies, but it's made harder than usual because DI away sends people so far from Diddy. Why can't he just have the Mario/Marth/Ike Uthrow instead of like a semi Luigi Uthrow? lol

Peanuts are good, Bananas are meh, and I dunno how he's supposed to approach. Side B only takes you so far, and he seems vulnerable to CC quite a bit. Side B helps a bit with this, but will lose to quicker reactive OOS options like Sheik Nair.


As for Pit, DI away/SDI away helps a lot for dealing with his combos. Even arrows in many cases you want to DI away, because DI inside pops you directly up basically and he has his way with you (once the arrows have enough knockback/stun to induce tumble at least). His approaching is... ok. (See the video Hylian linked: although it's 2.1, most of the time Armada initially hit Leffen is when Leffen approached and messed up. OOS Dair being a prime example. Not that this is bad for the character, but you do notice he doesn't tend to Nair/Dair/Fair or grab as an approach too often. Pit tends to arrow or stay in a neutralish position, wait for the other person to come, and then select options that might work). His actual kill power is fine if you can land the moves, good luck with Usmash kills though.

2.5 made Upb finishers better, so that helps alleviate the killing issues a bit.

Pit is easily in the upper half of the cast somewhere, Diddy is questionable imo. Diddy for like, top 10? I don't see it at all.


@Hylian: what do you define as viable MU? I think some of his MU's are gonna be crappy. Marth Sheik Falcon all sounds miserable for Pit. I dunno if he will have a "Sheik vs Falcon" Melee style MU, but I don't think he's that comparable to most of the top characters. He'll probably do the best vs Peach and Jiggs because they are slower, but I really don't see how he will deal with gap closing, in your face characters (or the big peepee sword of Marth).

 

[Overswarm]

I think Diddy will probably end up being a sonic-esque character in that he'll be good in the hands of a select few and have whoooooole bag of tricks, but when people know the tricks there will be nothing.

I have had fun Z- dropping bananas, crossing people up, then hitting them into the banana.

Unfortunately it doesn't do anything really better than just hitting them in the first place.


Pit I have noticed has really poor approaching options and most of his combos and followups are hurt bad by DI. I'm still not sure if Pit will really be awesome or not, but he definitely will be solid. I like him a lot, he's really fun to play.

 

[DMG]

Something fun to do with Diddy, especially at lower % vs the applicable characters: Side B someone and do the attack that pops them up. If you normally can't land a hit or want better positioning after they get popped up, you can jump and/or AGT in the air without landing from the initial Side B attack. Probably the coolest is AGT upwards/diagonal upwards, then jump up and spike someone.

(Clarification: Banana in your hand while doing this, then AGT that banana into the person and then get another hit in. Possibly even footstool them. They can DI the Side B grab/hit attack however so you will need to be able to adjust to this quickly and also know what %'s and characters it works on. I was trying it out on Dedede, a really ****in big and easy character to do it to lol.)

 

[SunJester]

2.5 addressed the largest problem Pit had with killing people (Not that he couldn't in 2.1 he just had to work for it) and I personally thought he had large potential in 2.1, so it makes him much more interesting in 2.5. I completely agree that he lacks in the approach options its a fairly distinct weakness, but at the very least you could at least pressure them into something more favourable for you with his arrows possibly.

Something I've kinda noticed with him (granted I'm a pretty crap player so take my words with a grain of salt) is that he has to kinda play it close to himself and his range is kinda...awkward to me anyways. It feels like you're just one bad read away from getting DI'd out of and getting hit and punished hard. Maybe that's just me but who knows.

Diddy is, well, he's good? He can go deep offstage for gimps due to his very long recovery. Bananas are fun to harass with but I feel like they're not going to be used a lot when it gets into the thick of things. I just can't find anything with the character that stands out, he just practically screams "Middle of the road" to me.

He is excessively annoying with all his screaming, so that makes things more interesting. =D

 

[regal68]

i disagree that sheik outright beats the brawl characters. many of them are quite fast and tricky to pin, retaining many of their movement characteristics from brawl. wario's aerial mobility, squirtle's ground sliding, samus's raw acrobats, etc. are quite difficult for sheik to manage in a traditional sense and go a long way to exploiting her relatively weak approach game.

Assuming this was a reply to me, I didn't say she did. I dont think she has a bad MU against them but what I said was those brawl characters I mentioned have melee sheik grab follow ups (aka they get free damage after grabs on all the cast basically regardless of DI)


Also can someone tell me if marths uthrow spacie cg got nerfed because of the landing detection? I find it all but impossible to do at low % if they DI behind while it was sooo free in melee and only got kinda hard once you had to do utilts/uairs. And why did sheik get all of her free damage off throws removed in addition to dthow getting hella nerfed when mario, link, zard, and ivy get super free damage off throws (mario and link get 40+% a lot of the time w/ DI).