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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Shouldn't you...uh...take it out then, since you guys promised to restore the Melee Top Tier vets completely in all their glory? This is kinda against that. Wall infinites DO happen in competitive play.
Overswarm
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Personally I'm all for removing them. Something simply being in Melee doesn't make it good. If I was remaking a Brawl game I wouldn't leave in tripping or Dedede's standing chain grab, why leave in wall infinites with Fox if you're trying to move away from that?Shouldn't you...uh...take it out then, since you guys promised to restore the Melee Top Tier vets completely in all their glory? This is kinda against that. Wall infinites DO happen in competitive play.
Plus there's only one stage with a wall present, so there's that.
A lot of people would rather keep bad or degenerative gameplay mechanics simply because they're used to them.
Oracle
Smash Master
Lucas's recovery is bad? LOL
Maybe your friend doesn't know how to recovery with lucas then.
@Reflex- thats the sad truth
Maybe your friend doesn't know how to recovery with lucas then.
@Reflex- thats the sad truth
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Lucas's recovery is bad. It goes a decent distance but that doesn't equate to a good recovery. See also: Marth, Kirby.
Similarly, a bad recovery does not equate to a bad character. See also: Marth, Doctor Mario.
And here comes Bubbaking to disagree.
Similarly, a bad recovery does not equate to a bad character. See also: Marth, Doctor Mario.
And here comes Bubbaking to disagree.
Oracle
Smash Master
Have you played against a good lucas before? He can almost always get close enough to the stage to tether, which is nigh impossible for most characters to consistently edgeguard
Overswarm
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This has been the opposite case here; I have been able to easily edgeguard both the PSI kids.Have you played against a good lucas before? He can almost always get close enough to the stage to tether, which is nigh impossible for most characters to consistently edgeguard
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Who are you playing? What you have been able to easily do may have been based on that...
virtuososteve
Smash Apprentice
Have you seen Toon Link's recovery? He's got it worse. Yeah you can AGT and Bomb jump but thats way harder than Lucas' jump airdodge tether. Lucas has a lot of options because he can slightly move forward with his down-b then his big second jump with a air dodge and tether? It's amazing. Toonlink has a miserable up-b its disgusting in terms of recovery. What makes him special is the bomb jump mixed with AGT.
Each character in PM has something special about him that you have to practice to be good. With Lucario its combing all of this attacks by canceling them, with Pikachu its that thing he does with his up-b when he bounces off the floor so he has no lag, with toon link its bomb jump/agt. Work with your character and you'll find these specific techniques with them.
Difficulty of use should never be a factor as to what is a good or bad recovery. When comparing things, it is assumed that user error shouldn't get in the way, because someone who isn't skilled enough to use something to its best effect reliably is only holding himself back.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
How is a person's technical error them holding themselves back? It isn't by their choice that they can't perform something.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
"Someone who isn't skilled enough to use something to its best effect reliably is only holding himself back," indicates at least to me that it's on a purely technical stand point. As if to insinuate that a person chooses not to know how to preform a technical maneuver.
It isn't the recovery itself. If it isn't the game, it must be the player. If need be, they should practice it more; the fact that they haven't IS their fault. If at least one person can do it consistently, their consistent use should be used for judging. That goes for tech skill and general strategy.
Of course, some things can be too strict or specific to be considered healthy for competitive play, but as long as the game is what it is, players just have to deal with it.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Master WGS
Smash Lord
There are also some people who will always be bad at this game no matter how much they practice. That doesn't mean the tier list should reflect them.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
No but to be told that technical error is the player's fault as a result of their own choices is kind of insulting in the same vein as saying a Parkinson's patient's control of their arms is their own fault lol
Jesseyo
Smash Apprentice
Just going to go and place my tier list since people are discussing match-ups instead.
This is based off hundres of hours of experience through the closed alpha and current 2.5b builds (although, I play more alpha than anything) against Chillin, Korn, SSSAM, and a little bit of Azen and Chu.
Disclaimer: I do not think any character is bad by their own rights. Some do have weaknesses that need to be addressed, but otherwise the dev team is showing great promise.
I want to like R.O.B. so badly, but he just lacks defensive outs and real punish potential
This is based off hundres of hours of experience through the closed alpha and current 2.5b builds (although, I play more alpha than anything) against Chillin, Korn, SSSAM, and a little bit of Azen and Chu.
Disclaimer: I do not think any character is bad by their own rights. Some do have weaknesses that need to be addressed, but otherwise the dev team is showing great promise.
Top
- Fox :foxbrawl:
- Falco :falcobrawl:
- Sheik :sheikbrawl:
- Marth :marthbrawl:
- Peach
eachbrawl: - Mario :mariobrawl:
High
- Wolf :wolfbrawl:
- Pit itbrawl:
- Zero Suit Samus :zssbrawl:
- Bowser :bowserbrawl:
- Lucario :lucariobrawl:
- Ike :ikebrawl:
- Diddy :diddybrawl:
- King DeDeDe :dededebrawl:
- Jigglypuff :jigglypuffbrawl:
- Captain Falcon :falconbrawl:
Mid
- Link :linkbrawl:
- Mr. Game and Watch :gwbrawl:
- Snake :snakebrawl:
- Luigi :luigibrawl:
- Donkey Kong :dkbrawl:
- Wario :wariocbrawl:
- Ivysaur :ivysaurbrawl:
- Ganondorf :ganonbrawl:
- Charizard harizardbrawl:
Low
- Sonic :sonicbrawl:
- Pikachu ikachubrawl:
- Lucas :lucasbrawl:
- Zelda :zeldabrawl:
- Squirtle :squirtlebrawl:
- Toon Link :toonlinkbrawl:
Bottom
- R.O.B. :robbrawl:
- Ness :nessbrawl:
I want to like R.O.B. so badly, but he just lacks defensive outs and real punish potential
Oracle
Smash Master
Did you seriously just compare bad video game players to parkinsons patients? Wow. Now bubbaking doesnt have to be all alone on my ignore list!
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I'm hurt more than just a little that that's the criteria by which you treat someone as such.
I'll try to just share your beliefs to avoid such a situation from now on.
There is no such thing as a skill ceiling regarding anything
(Unless the person has a serious medical prognosis)
You could try, you know, being less of a **** about it and saying where you find fault in the comparison.
I'll try to just share your beliefs to avoid such a situation from now on.
There is no such thing as a skill ceiling regarding anything
(Unless the person has a serious medical prognosis)
You could try, you know, being less of a **** about it and saying where you find fault in the comparison.
Overswarm
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I can agree with this list for the most part. Since I haven't made a list of my own, my revisions to your list since it is so close:Just going to go and place my tier list since people are discussing match-ups instead.
This is based off hundres of hours of experience through the closed alpha and current 2.5b builds (although, I play more alpha than anything) against Chillin, Korn, SSSAM, and a little bit of Azen and Chu.
Disclaimer: I do not think any character is bad by their own rights. Some do have weaknesses that need to be addressed, but otherwise the dev team is showing great promise.
*snip*
I want to like R.O.B. so badly, but he just lacks defensive outs and real punish potential
Top
- Falco :falcobrawl:
- Fox :foxbrawl:
- Sheik :sheikbrawl:
- Peach eachbrawl:
- Marth :marthbrawl:
- Mario :mariobrawl:
- Bowser :bowserbrawl:
High
- Ike :ikebrawl:
- Wario :wariocbrawl:
- Pit itbrawl:
- Zero Suit Samus :zssbrawl:
- Diddy :diddybrawl:
- Wolf :wolfbrawl:
- Captain Falcon :falconbrawl:
Mid
- Link :linkbrawl:
- Snake :snakebrawl:
- Mr. Game and Watch :gwbrawl:
- Donkey Kong :dkbrawl:
- Lucario :lucariobrawl:
- Ivysaur :ivysaurbrawl:
- Jigglypuff :jigglypuffbrawl:
- Squirtle :squirtlebrawl:
- Ganondorf :ganonbrawl:
- Charizard harizardbrawl:
- Sonic :sonicbrawl:
- Luigi :luigibrawl:
Low
- Toon Link :toonlinkbrawl:
- Lucas :lucasbrawl:
- Zelda :zeldabrawl:
- Ness :nessbrawl:
- Pikachu ikachubrawl:
Bottom
- King DeDeDe :dededebrawl:
- R.O.B. :robbrawl:
Most notable revisions are the huge drop in D3 (worthless character from what I've seen), Lucario's drop due to me being able to CC all his approaches other than grab (meaning CCing on a platform can be enough to take the hit, drop through, then start a combo on lucario), the raising of Ike and Wario (both have issues as a character but can be worked around), and the raising of Peach above Marth (with new characters, Marth takes a beating that Peach does not) and Falco above Fox.
Fox might actually drop lower now; you can easily air dodge out of his u-throw u-air bread and butter combos but don't have such a problem when comboing with Falco. Fox has had his power nerfed slightly and his ability to be comboed is still present. Given that we KNOW that Falco, Peach, Marth, and Jiggs can do damage to him, reducing his offensive capability and adding in the likes of Mario means that Fox has a more even playing field than before.
Still easily one of the best, just not so far and away it is crazy.
A Parkinson's patient probably shouldn't be competing in something that requires them to do dexterous movement with their arms, either.
Regardless, though, the point is purely about not basing goodness and badness on people who aren't capable for one reason or another.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
That I'm fine with, and I apologize for jumping on you over such a little thing; the implication that a player's abilities are purely of their own consequence just struck a personal nerve and I was rash to get so agitated so easily over it.
But yeah personal player skill shouldn't have an effect on the analysis of a character's Meta at all.
But yeah personal player skill shouldn't have an effect on the analysis of a character's Meta at all.
Overswarm, do you have proof or official word on some of those things? Something like Fox Uthrow --> Uair or killpower nerf would be POUNCED ON and continually cycled in this thread, due to how badly people question Spacies/want them nerfed. Changes to either Fox or Falco, compared to Melee, would be talked and debated about forever. I'm a bit skeptical, but if Magus or someone legit comes in and says it's true I'll believe it. There are very veryyyy few things about Fox that feel off, mainly double laser feels easier to execute and his Upb angles don't feel exactly the same... Uthrow to Uair I probably would have noticed besides the SDI factor.
Overswarm
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I used to SDI out of u-throw to u-air in Melee, and in Brawl it's stupid easy. What's more, with just a little bit of DI you can air dodge before he can hit you with a u-air at surprisingly low % with many characters.
Go try it, just focus on one person spamming air dodge and you trying to u-throw u-air various characters at various %.
As for his power, the only actual KO power I've seen that is super relevant is his back-air. It seems significantly less useful than melee.
standardtoaster
Tubacabra
DI matches melee in project m, overswarm.
Jesseyo
Smash Apprentice
D3 is really solid. I don't understand the hate he's been receiving. I feel he needs to be smoothed out, and give his up air the ability to pick people off the ground (similar to Link's up-air) as a reliable way to catch people off-guard. Since it also has a decent start-up, you could use it defensively on coming down for a quick return.
Respectable. I'm all okay with these since they're more opinions than anything (as were my choices). Ike and Wario are great, I just see them becoming "Melee Link status" once people figure out how to play against them. Plus both of their approach potential is weird to play as and predictable to play against.
I respect your Bowser jump as well. SSSAM plays a mean and smart Bowser. However, in alpha play, he's been toned down as of recent to land him the spot I placed him in.
Good list and reasoning though!
Overswarm
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Having gone back and forth between the two, I can tell you it is definitely not the case. SDI is much easier to input in Project M than it is in Melee.
shanus
Smash Hero
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OS: Lucario has negative angles on his specific dtilt hitboxes to prevent CC from working.
"-Lucario's Down Tilt foot aura hitbox does more damage and meteors against grounded foes"
If you have a happy-go-lucky CC'ing opponent this does the trick.
"-Lucario's Down Tilt foot aura hitbox does more damage and meteors against grounded foes"
If you have a happy-go-lucky CC'ing opponent this does the trick.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
To people underrating ROB
you are are underrating ROB
He's like this game's equivalent of Melee samus due to the lack of samus, but trading ground mobility for aerial mobility. I still wouldn't put him high, but there's no way he's bottom of the barrel or even near bottom tier. There are at half a dozen characters worse than him.
Also if you think he can't get punishes then you don't know how to play the character lol
his defensive outs are not letting people in on him very easily in the first place via samus esque spacing, incredible aerial mobility, and two fantastic projectiles, as well as getting out of juggles for free, getting tumble instantly without risk while remaining mobile, and occasionally having an amazing glide toss for instant spacing and a quick retaliation OoS if he's put in a bad position with a gyro in his hand
Only downside about his keep out game is that it requires a little start-up, which shouldn't be too much of an issue unless you have a hard time getting/keeping a gyro on stage, and since you get a lot of time at the beginning before they can reach you, and 2 seconds of invinvibility between your deaths, it shouldn't be too much of an issue anyways
also his low to the ground side-b->perfect waveland is super easy and super amazing but way underutilized so I think i'ma try to get some videos up showing some stuff that I pretty much never, ever see any ROB players do. Like they don't even do it sometimes, much less use it frequently.
you are are underrating ROB
He's like this game's equivalent of Melee samus due to the lack of samus, but trading ground mobility for aerial mobility. I still wouldn't put him high, but there's no way he's bottom of the barrel or even near bottom tier. There are at half a dozen characters worse than him.
Also if you think he can't get punishes then you don't know how to play the character lol
his defensive outs are not letting people in on him very easily in the first place via samus esque spacing, incredible aerial mobility, and two fantastic projectiles, as well as getting out of juggles for free, getting tumble instantly without risk while remaining mobile, and occasionally having an amazing glide toss for instant spacing and a quick retaliation OoS if he's put in a bad position with a gyro in his hand
Only downside about his keep out game is that it requires a little start-up, which shouldn't be too much of an issue unless you have a hard time getting/keeping a gyro on stage, and since you get a lot of time at the beginning before they can reach you, and 2 seconds of invinvibility between your deaths, it shouldn't be too much of an issue anyways
also his low to the ground side-b->perfect waveland is super easy and super amazing but way underutilized so I think i'ma try to get some videos up showing some stuff that I pretty much never, ever see any ROB players do. Like they don't even do it sometimes, much less use it frequently.
???
How in the world does ROB get out of juggles for free? Last time I checked, his clunky butt had a hard time dealing with juggles and combos.
On a lesser note, Overswarm played ROB in Brawl. I think dead last is inaccurate, but ROB doesn't strike me as that amazing of a character.
How in the world does ROB get out of juggles for free? Last time I checked, his clunky butt had a hard time dealing with juggles and combos.
On a lesser note, Overswarm played ROB in Brawl. I think dead last is inaccurate, but ROB doesn't strike me as that amazing of a character.
Overswarm
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Will have to try this.
I would love to see this, because I know ROB as a character better than most on Smashboards and this feels like a watered down version of the original that is somehow MORE vulnerable.
The main problem I see, is that ROB is defensively inclined or needs to play defensively for a lot of MU's, and he doesn't have transitional moves from defense to offense. If you laser someone, throw gyro at them, or Ftilt smack them away, you aren't setting them up for a combo. His CC game is not too bad, but again if you aren't getting a grab then you're likely not gonna combo that Dsmash/option into much. Not to mention landing a kill move in some MU's will make you wanna pull your hair out.
Overswarm
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ROB just has so many issues that make him worthless as a character. I seriously cannot even see a character existing that is worse than him. They at least have good qualities.
ROB can't even go off stage to edgeguard anymore without potentially setting himself up for being killed himself because his recovery doesn't allow him to grab the edge when facing the wrong way. o_o
Can't he just RAR offstage, either with a shorthop or a wavedash offstage?
Feels the same to me. SDI'ing out of uthrow uair is easy in melee anyways.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
side-b/up-b boosts aren't enough to get you guys out of tight spots? well god damn idk what to tell you lol
granted it won't get you out of shield safely but it'll do pretty much anything else if you're in the air.
Also ROB can turn around up-b during start-up like most specials, i don't know why you're having an issue grabbing the edge backwards either, unless you're using your very last boost to edgeguard, in which cast you could use the reverse hitbox of fair, or bair, or uair... or just not try to do that lol
granted it won't get you out of shield safely but it'll do pretty much anything else if you're in the air.
Also ROB can turn around up-b during start-up like most specials, i don't know why you're having an issue grabbing the edge backwards either, unless you're using your very last boost to edgeguard, in which cast you could use the reverse hitbox of fair, or bair, or uair... or just not try to do that lol
Overswarm
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Back-air only works when edgeguarding high. When edgeguarding low (where most people end up going) you have to be facing them and using fair to have any reliable success.
The only reason b-air works when edgeguarding high is that it sets you up easily for a good on-stage or on-ledge presence you can deal with.
More importantly, ROB's up+b in Brawl was how he REALLY edgeguarded to control space for a long period of time. That has been replaced by a fast moving booster rush, but it doesn't allow him to put his back to his opponent. For him to bair, he has to run into them.
If ROB was meant to be an off-stage edgeguarder his design went the wrong direction. It feels more like he's a failed spacing/campy character. He's at a disadvantage on approach but no real defensive options outside of maybe his f-tilt, which doesn't really count.
ROB's best edgeguarding in this game comes from his laser and gyro. Really wish he could have two gyros. Charge one, hold one, edgeguard.
If he could jump out of his over+b it could be used as a feint of a way to move both horizontally and vertically quickly for edgeguarding purposes, but personally I'd just want to see that on the ground. Could be neat off stage I guess, but doesn't seem to work with his design.
Thinking about ROB makes me sad. Now I know how Gimpyfish felt until Project M's bowser was revealed.