Tier List Speculation

[Jackio]

Someone should rename this thread to -People flaming leffens flaming

/Jack.

 

[a vehicle]

I'm really getting a grip on leffen's angle.
I totally agree that edge-guarding feels totally off and very different from melee, some characters being completely able to return safely while others would die without a question.
If fox/falco were an easy target for combos in melee they're way easier now and they're more vulnareable to meta-development rather than benefit from it (fox/falco had 11 years of meta) and some hard counters could just pop-up at any moment sending them to lower tiers
Some of you say "leffen isn't considering meta development" but IMO he's going way ahead of it and making good predictions.

 

[Archangel]

You do realize leffen's one of the top Fox's in Melee, right?

He's also passed M2K and Mango on the john tier list.

 

[KayB]

The hammer he has now is a "roulette" because the numbers he gets are completely random. If his numbers had some kind of predictable cycle, it would probably make a world of improvement for G&W as opposed to Peach's not-so-important (in relation to the whole character) fsmash, which already got that change. The PMBR has already taken steps towards normalizing some of the major random aspects of Luigi, Peach, etc. Why is G&W being excluded from the bandwagon?

That's kind of what I was getting at when I said charge-able hammer, like it starts with one and you can stop the charge at a certain number if you want an effect, and if you miss nine, it circles back to one again (it would also be cool if the different numbers had unrelated effects and can thus be used for different purposes, like 1 hammer comes out faster, five hammer stuns, 7 hammer causes enhanced shield damage, 4 hammer has a wider hitbox, and 9 hammer could be the KO move). People might think this is OP, but come on, DK's fully charged giant punch has insane power and knockback comparable to GW's 9-hammer. Not only that, but it has a wider hitbox (I believe) and is much, much, much easier to combo into. I do understand that it kind of destroys the spirit of the move, so I wouldn't mind if it was similar to Luigi's revolver missile system, except that it starts from nine instead of six. Dammit, judgement needs to be more reliable!


Onto Leffen's post, to an extent I don't really agree with what he's saying, but if there's one thing I do agree on it's redesigning Sonic. It's not so much that he's a gahlike character but more like he changes the way a match is played so significantly and has a playstyle that doesn't really reflect any style of Smash. It's also very irritating to play against and (imo) boring to watch. I do appreciate the efforts the BR has made between 2.1 and 2.5, but I still can't stomach the way Sonic plays.

He's also passed M2K and Mango on the john tier list.

M2K johns as much as Mango? As a person who recently joined the Smash community, this is news to me.

 

[DMG]

I'm really getting a grip on leffen's angle.
I totally agree that edge-guarding feels totally off and very different from melee, some characters being completely able to return safely while others would die without a question.
If fox/falco were an easy target for combos in melee they're way easier now and they're more vulnareable to meta-development rather than benefit from it (fox/falco had 11 years of meta) and some hard counters could just pop-up at any moment sending them to lower tiers
Some of you say "leffen isn't considering meta development" but IMO he's going way ahead of it and making good predictions.

Yeah, he's making the *great* prediction that the Melee characters suck now because... what reason again? Other people recover better, so much so that you ignore whatever strengths the characters have at fighting onstage and just judge viability on recovery? Again, I'd love to hear the reasons being Sonic timeout potential, Lucario still being a god, Pikachu QAC makes him godly, Luigi misfire situation propels him to the top, like something. Toss us a bone, metagame master.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I kinda like the chargable judegement idea tbh. Would require a lot of balancing though I think, to prevent it from being too centralizing. Like maybe "charing solarbeam with synthesis" length of charging to 9.

 

[Greenpoe]

I understand what Leffen was saying too, and I agree that tether recoveries probably are too good (and by too good, I mean there's minimal interaction. Ideally, a recovery should have a very good chance that the person lives and a very good chance that they die, thus encouraging the recovering player to actually try and not just fall to their death, and encouraging the other player to risk their life with an attack OR play it safe and stay on stage). Perhaps when you grab via tether, there should be some drawback, or even a particular drawback that only occurs if the ledge is being held - like if you're animation were slower, or if you weren't allowed to come up at all, or if it forced you to come up immediately (I think this last option is preferable) if someone was holding the ledge.

 

[Deleted member]

Instead of general statements, I'd like to hear specifically which characters' recoveries are "too good."

After you do that, please explain to me why having a good recovery, on its own, is so controversial, and keep in mind that there were already high tier Melee characters with good recoveries.

 

[Bleck]

Instead of general statements, I'd like to hear specifically which characters' recoveries are "too good."

All of the characters with better recoveries than Fox, of course.

 

[Vashimus]

Zelda.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Instead of general statements, I'd like to hear specifically which characters' recoveries are "too good."

After you do that, please explain to me why having a good recovery, on its own, is so controversial, and keep in mind that there were already high tier Melee characters with good recoveries.

I think the only high tiers with actually bad recoveries were, what, Marth and Falcon and Doc if you go that far down? And even then they had options to work around "easy" edgeguards? Even with bad recoveries, they show more than anyone else that a strong on-stage presence means much more than how you get back onto the stage.

 

[Archangel]

Doc's idea of strong on stage presence is. Pill, Pill, Pill, Pill, Pill, Pill, Pill, Pill, Bair spacing, Pill, Pill, Grab-Fair.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That's part of why PM Mario's been given Doc's B-Air and F-Air. We're making it better.

 

[DrinkingFood]

And a pill-fireball hybrid fireball.
Like I didn't think Doc's pills could get much better for a slow space covering projectile but damn now they're even hard to run under.

 

[Archangel]

Mario's got a little bit of that go in and get it feel. Not quite melee Fox he can pretty much **** up everybody. I wouldn't say he's a 10 in anything but he's about an 8 in everything so he's well rounded. Which is kind of how you'd expect Mario to be in a Mario game.

 

[Professor Pro]

ISadly the PMBR are just too divided and just keep buffing their own character to insane amounts, totally skewing the overall balance out of bounds.

-Leffen

Huh lol
Have you actually even looked at the change list from v2.1 to v2.5b lol?

Sure, nobody has the Squirtle or Diddy or D3/Snake/Lucas metagame down

I think it would be fair to say that I think I have Snake's metagame down. Just sayin

 

[Kink-Link5]

"EH HEH HEH HEH HEH"
-Prof. Pro, 2013

 

[Overswarm]

Why not randomize G&W's over-b? It's fine being random, the issue is that it isn't reliable. If you knew that all the hammers that came out actually helped and weren't going to potentially hurt you, it could be used without crossing your fingers.

A predictable over-b #9 would be pretty broken though. o_O

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What if you could hold the Forward-B start-up (like Luigi or something), and the longer it's held, the more (lower) numbers are taken out of the chance? Could be awesome for situational combos, and that's about it.

 

[Overswarm]

What if you could hold the Forward-B start-up (like Luigi or something), and the longer it's held, the more (lower) numbers are taken out of the chance? Could be awesome for situational combos, and that's about it.

That'd be situational enough to where it wouldn't really affect G&W's actual gameplay; it'd be like realizing falcon can dair to falcon punch at certain percentages. Good, fun, but useful only for that small bit.

Hmm... maybe the higher in % G&W gets, the better his over-b gets? Like once he gets up to 60% his over-B removes 1-3, then above 100% removed 4-6 so he only has 7-9 remaining? Or, if possible, make it a timer that simply times how long G&W was alive. The numbers I just gave were arbitrary but making it more likely the longer G&W was alive / closer to death resulting in a stronger over-b could be revolutionary in terms of how he was played.

It would make him a bit more campy though which might not necessarily be fun for all parties involved.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I wonder where you guys put Ivysaur, he seems top 12.

Spoiler

wut

On another note, Sonic for top 5...

Spoiler

wutx2

.

 

[DMG]

what wat WHAT

 

[Greenpoe]

Why not randomize G&W's over-b? It's fine being random, the issue is that it isn't reliable. If you knew that all the hammers that came out actually helped and weren't going to potentially hurt you, it could be used without crossing your fingers.

A predictable over-b #9 would be pretty broken though. o_O

I would like it where you have to actually hit (either with damage or on shield) with the hammer for it to go up each time. Thus it would be incredibly good if you learned the right time when you use the hammer, but you'd also have to endure using it when it's just a 1, and hitting 8 and 9 would literally be rewards for being extremely good with the hammer!

 

[Overswarm]

I would like it where you have to actually hit (either with damage or on shield) with the hammer for it to go up each time. Thus it would be incredibly good if you learned the right time when you use the hammer, but you'd also have to endure using it when it's just a 1, and hitting 8 and 9 would literally be rewards for being extremely good with the hammer!

That'd also work, and would make any stage with outside hitboxes (shy guys, balloon, etc.) a definite counterpick for G&W!

 

[Juushichi]

I'm not sure that any GnW main/player currently minds the side-B, but it's not a bad suggestion by many means.

a lot of us like the potential addition of being able to air dodge out of Up-B ala Demo 1, but that could probably do something to GnW that the devs don't want (especially since I remember specifically asking about it before 2.1, haha). Given his pretty solid ability to combo people out of up-B (and into it sometimes), it's interesting to think about what that does for GnW considering he already has a nasty WD and WL on platforms as it is. His ability to combo vertically with his massive hitbox on parachute nair already begins to make me moist.

 

[skaterbaj]

I wonder where you guys put Ivysaur, he seems top 12.

Spoiler

wut

On another note, Sonic for top 5...

Spoiler

wutx2

.

I said that before sonic will def be near top if not now then as the metagame for him continues.
Sure I would put Ivy in the top 12 lol.even the top 15

 

[KayB]

That's kind of what I was getting at when I said charge-able hammer, like it starts with one and you can stop the charge at a certain number if you want an effect, and if you miss nine, it circles back to one again (it would also be cool if the different numbers had unrelated effects and can thus be used for different purposes, like 1 hammer comes out faster, five hammer stuns, 7 hammer causes enhanced shield damage, 4 hammer has a wider hitbox, and 9 hammer could be the KO move). People might think this is OP, but come on, DK's fully charged giant punch has insane power and knockback comparable to GW's 9-hammer. Not only that, but it has a wider hitbox (I believe) and is much, much, much easier to combo into. I do understand that it kind of destroys the spirit of the move, so I wouldn't mind if it was similar to Luigi's revolver missile system, except that it starts from nine instead of six. Dammit, judgement needs to be more reliable!

Oh come on guys. Must I add a tl;dr comment for my post to be noticed.


And his bair suuuccks.

 

[Archangel]

So, I recently realized that the projected goal of this project isn't going to be possible. By default design some characters simply end up in (****ed tier). Others will rise and fall from spacies tier to below marth tier. At least...according to the changes so far. If the pattern persists in the next installment then I'll be able to say for sure..

Basically what I mean is...characters like Lucario (suspected s-tier caliber character) Nerfed until that wasn't really a problem anymore. However, Why should fox and falco be the only ones that enjoy the perks of being stupidly good? I'm not saying they should be nerfed. Repeat, I am NOT saying they should be nerfed. I just feel...you might get a better looks at who actually needs to be nerfed/tweaked once everyone(90-95% of the cast) is at least high tier caliber. As long as characters like GnW and DDD exist I see no reason to have nerfed characters like Lucario and Ike.

Although to be fair, Ike was BS design wise but now he feels like a declawed lion.

 

[bubbaking]

Late to reply, but...

Spoiler

-Lucario is now able to on-hit cancel during hitlag, which also effectively reduces the startup of the move by 1, and is able to OHC using the C-Stick during hitlag
-Lucario's Jab 2 and Forward Smash are slightly more advantaged on block
-Lucario's Jab 3, Forward Tilt, and Up Tilt are more advantaged on block
-Lucario's Jab 1 & 2 inner hits link better into the next Jab
-Lucario's Jab 2 hits and can transition into Jab 3 slightly faster to match the animation
-Lucario's Jab 3 hits and ends earlier in the animation, reaches crouching and landing opponents better, and base knockback and angle lowered slightly
-Lucario's Forward Tilt hitbox comes out sooner, his arm during the swing is intangible, and IASA is much earlier
-Lucario's Up Tilt hitbox ends slightly sooner, damage increased slightly, and IASA is much earlier
-Lucario's Down Tilt startup greatly reduced, damage decreased slightly, and IASA is earlier
-Lucario's Down Tilt foot aura hitbox does more damage and meteors against grounded foes
-Lucario's Up Smash charges up properly, scaling damage and knockback accordingly when charged
-Lucario's Up Smash animation cleaned up, has an aura trail added to the fist, and he steps into the move instead of back giving it much more range
-Lucario's Up Smash links better, is able to cancel into landing while moving downwards, and knockback growth on the final hit decreased slightly
-Lucario's Down Smash startup greatly reduced, knockback growth decreased slightly, and inside hitbox on his front side is clankable like the other three hitboxes
-Lucario's Neutral Air damage and knockback are increased
-Lucario's Forward Air autocancels sooner, strong hit has slightly reduced base knockback, increased growth, and lasts slightly longer
-Lucario's Forward Air foot aura hitbox on strong hit does increased damage, base knockback, and has a more vertical trajectory
-Lucario's Back Air strong hit does slightly more damage, has less base knockback and growth, and lasts slightly longer
-Lucario's Back Air hand aura hitbox on strong hit does more damage, base knockback, and has a more horizontal trajectory
-Lucario's Up Air autocancels sooner, IASA is much earlier
-Lucario's Up Air foot aura hitbox does slightly more damage, base knockback, growth, and sends more vertically
-Lucario's Dash Grab and Turn Grab have a third grab box added
-Lucario's Up Throw release point adjusted to be more in front and look less awkward, and knockback growth increased significantly
-Lucario's Down Throw speed is weight dependent and has significantly less startup to be harder to DI
-Lucario's Quick Cliff Attack does not whiff when they are standing very close to the edge
-Lucario's Side B grab duration is slightly longer
-Lucario's Side B attack hitboxes adjusted in damage and knockback, with the closest being the strongest
-Lucario's Up B hitboxes adjusted so that the final hit will actually come out before the animation ends, and has a hitbox when grabbing the edge
-Lucario's Up B uses weight dependent set knockback on multihits and super cancel instead of base knockback and no growth, and the multihits are not as SDIable
-Lucario's Up B and Down B have priority over Side B for OHCs when inputting diagonally
-Lucario's Down B is reversible and preserves horizontal momentum on startup
-Lucario's Down B is intangible when he begins to move instead of partially into the dash
-Lucario's Down B movement during dash increased and smoothed out to provide more momentum when canceled at any length, goes a slightly longer distance overall, and in the air transitions into fall better

All those nerfs.

Lolz, this list doesn't even actually describe in detail what happened to Lucario's downB. It just LEAVES OUT the nerf. From what I've seen, Lucario's DT now has increased startup AND increased cooldown, despite the PMBR stating that startup would be traded for cooldown. The list above says "movement during dash increased and smoothed out to provide more momentum when canceled at any length, goes a slightly longer distance overall, and in the air transitions into fall better." It doesn't say anything about that nerf, so I'm inclined to say that things are being 'covered up' here.

How is it unreliable? He can get 4 bacons out before you can even jump over him or run right to him, and you can use from a good distance, create a wall of bacon, then slowly approach, I don't get what's unreliable in that.

I take it you're referring to standing bacons, since even with SH double bacons, I doubt you'd be able to get 4 bacons out before the opponent got to you. In either case though, this doesn't help G&W's approach, which is troubling because he's the kind of character who could very easily lose the lead, due to being extremely light and easily combo'd, and this walling tool wouldn't help him get it back.

If I shield the bacon, I usually end up eating 3 down-tilts without being able to get out of my shield, it pushes me back enough where I can't counter either, and a lot of G&W's moves stay out so long, he just makes a constant wall of pain

Why are you shielding bacon? Dtilt is a legitimately good move, but in no case whatsoever should you be forced to shield three of them. His other long-lasting moves can easily be punished with shieldgrabs, usmash OoS, or WD OoS stuff.

I don't know why you would approach with an attack with G&W without creating his stupid walls first, but if you do, his F-air has good range, and if I get hit by that bacon wall, it's guaranteed like 2 or 3 hits, during that time G&W just walks in an does a tilt or smash which is usually enough to kill

Why are you getting hit by bacon?

Can't jump in the time it takes Game and Watch to jump and use a move, land, jump, then use the move again?

Getting shield pressured by triple D-tilt?

Yeah, this...

 

[Spiffykins]

'Declawed' (or as I said to very positive response in this thread, 'neutered') was exactly how I felt about Lucario, and incidentally it's more apt terminology for him than Ike.

The two big changes, which I assume were primarily intended to make Lucario's approaches more punishable (down b and side b startup), had the hopefully unintentional side effects of severely limiting one of his best kill moves and one of his best comboing tools. For a character who already had relatively low kill power and is heavily dependent on combos for racking up damage and getting kill setups, this is a rather large blow, and similar concerns have been raised about Ike.

I think the lesson to take from this is that nerfs and limitations are almost always more apparent than OP-ness and general character potential. It can take a long time for counter strategies to develop and something to be accurately deemed OP, whereas underwhelming characters are more easily identified. In an actively developing metagame, nerfs ought to be done with extreme care so as not to upset the balance of qualities that make a character good rather than stupidly good.

 

[Greenpoe]

So, I recently realized that the projected goal of this project isn't going to be possible. By default design some characters simply end up in (****ed tier). Others will rise and fall from spacies tier to below marth tier. At least...according to the changes so far. If the pattern persists in the next installment then I'll be able to say for sure..

Basically what I mean is...characters like Lucario (suspected s-tier caliber character) Nerfed until that wasn't really a problem anymore. However, Why should fox and falco be the only ones that enjoy the perks of being stupidly good? I'm not saying they should be nerfed. Repeat, I am NOT saying they should be nerfed. I just feel...you might get a better looks at who actually needs to be nerfed/tweaked once everyone(90-95% of the cast) is at least high tier caliber. As long as characters like GnW and DDD exist I see no reason to have nerfed characters like Lucario and Ike.

1) The PMBR is going on the "safe" side by leaving Fox as the best which is fine - he has 11 years of metagame over the new characters (and plus, in Melee, he hasn't even done particularly well in recent years). You can argue that overbuffing is bad since "Over time, as the meta develops, everyone else will begin to scale up to Fox and the others," or that over-nerfing/under-buffing is bad because then people simply won't play them in the first place and their meta won't evolve.

2) Lucario's down B was really insane. It's pretty crappy now (still has some uses but it's very weak), but before, it vastly overcentralized the character. Still, I think that it deserves a buff.

3) GnW and DDD should really have their weaknesses addressed. Obviously not every character should be good at everything, but in terms of matchups, we definitely want to avoid 70-30 matchups, or worse. 60-40 is not ideal but it is acceptable. GnW is kind of ridiculous - all his smashes are insanely powerful, but he's also really, really light. I wouldn't mind if his raw KO power got toned down in order to shore up some of his other abilities. (Or at least make Bacon somehow more reliable/consistent. That has the potential to help out some of his bad MU's if implemented properly.)

But I think to really solve these types of issues, the PMBR must look at why each character is underpowered in terms of matchups as well as raw ability. For example, are they too easily combo'd? Too easily out-spaced? Poor at approaching characters with a good defense?

 

[bubbaking]

Also, in reference to bubbas note on down b for lucario beimg slower. It feels that way to me as well.

Glad to see that I wasn't the only one who noticed this.

You do realize leffen's one of the top Fox's in Melee, right?

Yeah, so? His opinion is still very capable of being biased. M2K is pretty much the top MK in Brawl, and he has/had a bunch of ridiculous opinions about his char's MU that are just plain.....well, ridiculous. Please do not do what Daze was doing for Laijin and try to defend this guy JUST because he's a top Melee Fox. Most of us are aware of that, but that doesn't mean his opinion is necessarily correct (read: better than everyone else's).

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

edit: nevermind lol

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Can't jump in the time it takes Game and Watch to jump and use a move, land, jump, then use the move again?

Getting shield pressured by triple D-tilt?

G&W only has to jump once, bacon, land and bacon, maybe it's my luck, but one usually shoots right up to stop my jump approach

the bacon keeps me in shield, it's like bacon hit > d-tilt > bacon hit > d-tilt > bacon hit > d-tilt

The Lime parts I wanna address. Shielding Bacon is not one of the go to options for most characters, and it's hard to force people to shield it when it's a slow traveling (for the most part) projectile that arcs like a basketball shot downwards. In fact the biggest worry is from characters going under Bacon and punishing you: the buff that cancels lag from airborne bacon is good but it doesn't allow you to maintain a consistent wall that's also low enough, in part due to the usual arcs of Bacon and because you're hopping in the air to use it which adds a bit of height. What it does allow you to do, is to do those 1-2 shots as a utility approach/defense and then allow you to try to go in. If you're consistently going in after a full pound of bacon is flung in, and the poor guy is shielding it all because he's allergic to pork, then I dunno what to say I really don't.


Unless the arcs have been smoothed out and made less random, it's somewhat unreliable because you don't know if you will get a high shot that's super close to the body or a lower shot that branches out more. Which is bad if you are aiming for a precise wall that's sometimes required given how characters can move in Melee.


As for the second part, that's absolutely right. G^W has a pretty decent moveset for walling. Long reach, lasting moves, good move out of CC. He's got the kit to do so, and it's recommended in a lot of MU's to not even bother approaching but to become the punishing Wall of 2D Spirit. That's the point though: being annoying with Dtilt Chair Fair and lasting moves defensively doesn't mean his approaching is all that great. If you are behind and need to catch up, I don't think Captain Falcon really cares how much you fling Bacon. I don't think many of the better characters in the game care that you're gonna approach them with Fair Nair Dtilt or Grab (OR Bacon outta nowhere). Plenty of characters aren't scared of crap from G^W approaching, and he's above average when it comes to being predictable and punishable (besides better spaced moves like Dtilt max range). Now, the difference between G^W having to approach a Fox, and being able to CC most attacks into Dtilt into a **** combo on Fox, it's kinda clear where the character is gonna lean.

I don't play small characters and I never see a chance to run under the bacon, I can move back but with an approaching wall of bacon coming, I just get pushed to the edge of the stage and that's not good, jumping over usually only works if I'm Falco or if we're playing on battlefield or Dreamland, something with many platforms, what are you saying should be done about the bacon then? I'd like to know since I find it a pain in the *** to deal with

In my case it creates enough of a wall like 90% of the time to present a problem, for me at least.

When I play C. Falcon I have trouble getting in because of G&W's range, stupid chair, though to be honest I don't play Falcon too well

I don't know I just don't buy G&W being bad, I do so well against any other character my friend picks but when he's G&W it's tough no matter who I choose, and he hasn't even put that much time into him as other characters

 

[bubbaking]

You don't need to be a small character to get under Bacon, especially if it was hopped, which is when being hit by Bacon would actually be dangerous since G&W wouldn't be, y'know, stuck in lag.

That's kind of what I was getting at when I said charge-able hammer, like it starts with one and you can stop the charge at a certain number if you want an effect, and if you miss nine, it circles back to one again (it would also be cool if the different numbers had unrelated effects and can thus be used for different purposes, like 1 hammer comes out faster, five hammer stuns, 7 hammer causes enhanced shield damage, 4 hammer has a wider hitbox, and 9 hammer could be the KO move). People might think this is OP, but come on, DK's fully charged giant punch has insane power and knockback comparable to GW's 9-hammer. Not only that, but it has a wider hitbox (I believe) and is much, much, much easier to combo into. I do understand that it kind of destroys the spirit of the move, so I wouldn't mind if it was similar to Luigi's revolver missile system, except that it starts from nine instead of six. Dammit, judgement needs to be more reliable!

I like this idea a lot.

Edit: I actually like ALL of these new ideas that people are hammering out (sorry, I had to do it XD). They're pretty legit, IMO.

It's not so much that he's a gahlike character but more like he changes the way a match is played so significantly and has a playstyle that doesn't really reflect any style of Smash.

Heaven forbid that Smash, a game where nearly every character has an incredibly unique playstyle, feature just ONE MORE unique playstyle.

I understand what Leffen was saying too, and I agree that tether recoveries probably are too good (and by too good, I mean there's minimal interaction. Ideally, a recovery should have a very good chance that the person lives and a very good chance that they die, thus encouraging the recovering player to actually try and not just fall to their death, and encouraging the other player to risk their life with an attack OR play it safe and stay on stage). Perhaps when you grab via tether, there should be some drawback, or even a particular drawback that only occurs if the ledge is being held - like if you're animation were slower, or if you weren't allowed to come up at all, or if it forced you to come up immediately (I think this last option is preferable) if someone was holding the ledge.

For the same reason that P:M tether recoveries are "too good", they are also kinda bad in certain MUs/situations, as Leffen actually pointed out. Since they have no variation/flexibility in how they snap to the ledge, they can be edgeguarded with simple strategies. Just place a hitbox between the grappler and the ledge. ZSS and Ivy, in particular, suffer from this due to having largely tether-based recoveries.

 

[OkamiBW]

seriously. if you believe fox and falco are low tier, you dont understand what made them top tier in melee.

You do realize leffen's one of the top Fox's in Melee, right?

Yeah, so? His opinion is still very capable of being biased. M2K is pretty much the top MK in Brawl, and he has/had a bunch of ridiculous opinions about his char's MU that are just plain.....well, ridiculous. Please do not do what Daze was doing for Laijin and try to defend this guy JUST because he's a top Melee Fox. Most of us are aware of that, but that doesn't mean his opinion is necessarily correct (read: better than everyone else's).

Bubbaking, I wasn't defending him. I was simply saying that outofphase's jab at leffen not knowing what made Fox and Falco top tier in Melee is sort of off, considering that a player must understand a character's strengths to use them at top level of play. I'm not quite sure why you're calling me out, to be quite honest. Would you care to explain?

 

[Archangel]

1) The PMBR is going on the "safe" side by leaving Fox as the best which is fine - he has 11 years of metagame over the new characters (and plus, in Melee, he hasn't even done particularly well in recent years). You can argue that overbuffing is bad since "Over time, as the meta develops, everyone else will begin to scale up to Fox and the others," or that over-nerfing/under-buffing is bad because then people simply won't play them in the first place and their meta won't evolve.

I would call consistently placing top 3-5 in most events not doing well...but whatever. Besides I don't want him to be changed...I already stated that...however, it's hard for anyone who doesn't show bias to original tiers not to wonder...why should anything that seems almost as bad as a 1 frame shine attack with invincibility on it...be significantly decreased in effectiveness to the point of being just an average ok or terrible move? Personally, As much as I hate them...I think most things that seem almost as OP'd as spacies general gameplay should be left alone until the balancing phase unless it appears broken on a Brawl- level.

2) Lucario's down B was really insane. It's pretty crappy now (still has some uses but it's very weak), but before, it vastly overcentralized the character. Still, I think that it deserves a buff.

Again...I hate to point this out but...I'd like you to name a Falco that doesn't center his gameplay around laser control-shines. Name a Fox that doesn't ride Nair-shine planes? I don't think there is anything wrong with players finding a center or foundation for these new characters. The logic behind wanting to use all kinds of attacks is like me approaching Javi and saying I like your Nair, and Dair, but I would like to see you use Fair and approach with illusion because you focus to much on other attacks......now how the hell does that sounds?

As for it currently being too weak I must say I agree....it went from one extreme to the next. that combined with the nerf to his side-b and decrease in frame safety and suddenly he's just an average character at best.

3) GnW and DDD should really have their weaknesses addressed. Obviously not every character should be good at everything, but in terms of matchups, we definitely want to avoid 70-30 matchups, or worse. 60-40 is not ideal but it is acceptable. GnW is kind of ridiculous - all his smashes are insanely powerful, but he's also really, really light. I wouldn't mind if his raw KO power got toned down in order to shore up some of his other abilities. (Or at least make Bacon somehow more reliable/consistent. That has the potential to help out some of his bad MU's if implemented properly.)

Well...I think DDD is just too big, too slow(most of the time) and just...too vulnerable at times. GnW should just be deleted from the game.

But I think to really solve these types of issues, the PMBR must look at why each character is underpowered in terms of matchups as well as raw ability. For example, are they too easily combo'd? Too easily out-spaced? Poor at approaching characters with a good defense?

Yeah I agree....don't get me wrong, I think some nerfs will be needed(eventually) but just...based on 2.0/2.1-2.5b I'd say....it might be better to focus on buffing the worse characters before you nerf characters that are better.

 

[bubbaking]

Bubbaking, I wasn't defending him. I was simply saying that outofphase's jab at leffen not knowing what made Fox and Falco top tier in Melee is sort of off, considering that a player must understand a character's strengths to use them at top level of play. I'm not quite sure why you're calling me out, to be quite honest. Would you care to explain?

I didn't really mean to call you out, and if that's how it came across, I sincerely apologize. However, I can understand outofphase's statement. He's simply saying that the spacees possess the same fundamental things in P:M that made them Top Tier in Melee, and Leffen implying that they're Low Tier with these things is radical. If Leffen really believes that, then perhaps he really doesn't understand exactly WHAT makes his main so good in Melee.

Bad example: Gimpyfish is clearly one of the best Melee Bowsers ever, but for a long time, he was trying to prove that Bowser was a good character. He understood his char's weaknesses but he didn't understand that they made him bad.

Likewise, Leffen may understand his char's strengths but not how they make him GOOD.

Edit: That 'defense' statement was more of a precautionary thing after witnessing Daze defend Laijin, which I kinda disagreed with, especially since no one did that for Kage (with good reason too) when he was extremely distraught about Lucario. I don't think PMBR members should be showing much partiality towards anyone and his opinions. This isn't directed at you; it's more of a general statement. I'm not saying that is what you're doing/have done, because as far as I've seen, you haven't (yet).

(and plus, in Melee, he hasn't even done particularly well in recent years)

Please don't try to delude yourself into believing this. Must I bring up RoM 5's results?

 

[Tero.]

So, I recently realized that the projected goal of this project isn't going to be possible. By default design some characters simply end up in (****ed tier). Others will rise and fall from spacies tier to below marth tier. At least...according to the changes so far. If the pattern persists in the next installment then I'll be able to say for sure..

Basically what I mean is...characters like Lucario (suspected s-tier caliber character) Nerfed until that wasn't really a problem anymore. However, Why should fox and falco be the only ones that enjoy the perks of being stupidly good? I'm not saying they should be nerfed. Repeat, I am NOT saying they should be nerfed. I just feel...you might get a better looks at who actually needs to be nerfed/tweaked once everyone(90-95% of the cast) is at least high tier caliber. As long as characters like GnW and DDD exist I see no reason to have nerfed characters like Lucario and Ike.

Although to be fair, Ike was BS design wise but now he feels like a declawed lion.

yes yes yes! so many times this!
couldn't agree more.

 

[bubbaking]

Been saying that forever once it became clear that Top Tier wasn't going to be brought down to High Tier's level in order to promote balance through clear strengths and weaknesses that are actually hard to cover up. There are two ways, apparently, to balance this game, but I feel that neither route is being taken........









.....yet.