• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Tier List Speculation

Archangel

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
6,453
Location
Wilmington, Delaware
NNID
combat22386
I do know that there are small changes in this game. Fox for example has more power or KB on his shine which makes it harder to waveshine/impossible to waveshine continuously into a wall.

Still, I don't know things that aren't on a higher scale of broken than spacies shines should be nerfed until the balancing phase starts. Stick to the original plan. Buff low tiers, don't nerf top tiers. Should one of the new cast members or returning terrible characters prove themselves worthy of top tier caliber. I say leave them be and continue buffing people who aren't there yet. Then when that is finished look over the cast and tweak things as they are needed.


this is how I'd go about it but...it's just my opinion.
 

Turazrok

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
4,133
Location
LA
Well imo lucario's playstyle, while interesting and fun, does not belong in a melee setting. Period. :/ Shoulda stuck to a more Brawl+ oriented style where his brawl combos work better than giving him that bs link **** who you think you are dante.

I mean it's cool, but it doesn't fit.
 

Turazrok

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
4,133
Location
LA
I feel like I'm playing marvel in smash.

Don't get that feeling from IC's.

Nice try tho.
 

outofphase

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Oct 13, 2012
Messages
142
Location
cleveland
lol leffen knows spacies are still good. i agree with him concerning brawl characters designs and recoveries though. i think diddy/sonic could surpass spacies with metagame development, but probably only those 2 and who really knows
 

Vashimus

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Messages
3,308
Location
Newark, NJ
Damn, Bubbaking. I would've assumed you'd be the first on to notice the increased startup on DT. Come on brah!

I understand why the PMBR did it, but they could've found a way around it. For instance, they could've made it so if DT is cancelled into from an attack, it retains the old 2.1 startup and cool down. When it isn't cancelled, it's the 2.5 startup. This way, Lucario mains won't lose their old BnB 2.1 combos while at the same time it keeps the move from being as rewarding to throw out randomly when not in a combo.

:phone:
 

Greenpoe

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
852
Well imo lucario's playstyle, while interesting and fun, does not belong in a melee setting. Period. :/ Shoulda stuck to a more Brawl+ oriented style where his brawl combos work better than giving him that bs link **** who you think you are dante.

I mean it's cool, but it doesn't fit.
Just think of his moves as having IASI frames on all his moves, but are limited to certain moves.
 

9Kplus1

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 4, 2006
Messages
3,518
Location
Smogon (PM FC: 4256-7740-0627)
Well...I think DDD is just too big, too slow(most of the time) and just...too vulnerable at times.
So is Ganondorf and people aren't labeling him as low tier. Matter of fact, ROB, Bowser, DK, and Zard suffer from similar weaknesses; but none of the mentioned characters have multiple jumps, magnetic gloves, minions at their command, and overall range that Marth would cream himself over.

Face it: either DDD is a sleeper top tier or every single heavyweight in the game is ***.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
So is Ganondorf and people aren't labeling him as low tier. Matter of fact, ROB, Bowser, DK, and Zard suffer from similar weaknesses; but none of the mentioned characters have multiple jumps, magnetic gloves, minions at their command, and overall range that Marth would cream himself over.

Face it: either DDD is a sleeper top tier or every single heavyweight in the game is ***.
I could be mistaken, but can't you punish Dedede OoS with any decent character and then combo him to kingdom come?

Shielding his f-tilt and then jumping puts him on the defensive in a bad way.
 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 10, 2005
Messages
13,704
Location
Atlanta, GA
NNID
TheReflexWonder
3DS FC
2492-4449-2771
I could be mistaken, but can't you punish Dedede OoS with any decent character and then combo him to kingdom come?

Shielding his f-tilt and then jumping puts him on the defensive in a bad way.
That's why he's the only person I've seen advocating Dedede's top-tier status.
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
If you guys ever want suggestions for reworking Dedede I would love to help. :B
 

Spiffykins

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 31, 2012
Messages
547
Damn, Bubbaking. I would've assumed you'd be the first on to notice the increased startup on DT. Come on brah!

I understand why the PMBR did it, but they could've found a way around it. For instance, they could've made it so if DT is cancelled into from an attack, it retains the old 2.1 startup and cool down. When it isn't cancelled, it's the 2.5 startup. This way, Lucario mains won't lose their old BnB 2.1 combos while at the same time it keeps the move from being as rewarding to throw out randomly when not in a combo.

:phone:
I think Bubba's saying it's actually slower and has later IASA when not cancelled, not just that it has that startup.

Also, I've been saying that since Day 1 of 2.5. Come on brah!
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
6,453
Location
Wilmington, Delaware
NNID
combat22386
So is Ganondorf and people aren't labeling him as low tier. Matter of fact, ROB, Bowser, DK, and Zard suffer from similar weaknesses; but none of the mentioned characters have multiple jumps, magnetic gloves, minions at their command, and overall range that Marth would cream himself over.

Face it: either DDD is a sleeper top tier or every single heavyweight in the game is ***.
That makes no sense. the logic is just...shallow and stupid...and dumb....and idiotic.

Roy is a top tier because he uses a sword. Either he is a sleeper top tier or everyone who uses a sword in the game is ***.

^Your logic.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Donkey Kong is top tier at like, having huge ****in hands
 

DMG

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
18,958
Location
Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
I've heard that before as well, but haven't seen official confirmation or seen it work that way IRL
 

bubbaking

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
6,895
Location
Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
Damn, Bubbaking. I would've assumed you'd be the first on to notice the increased startup on DT. Come on brah!
Lolz, I knew about that before 2.5 was even released! :p Spiffy hit the nail on the head:
I think Bubba's saying it's actually slower and has later IASA when not cancelled, not just that it has that startup.
Exactly. I was saying that DT has more (or the same) cooldown, even though it also has increased startup, which isn't what we were originally told (directly by the PMBR) was going to happen. :(

So is Ganondorf and people aren't labeling him as low tier. Matter of fact, ROB, Bowser, DK, and Zard suffer from similar weaknesses; but none of the mentioned characters have multiple jumps, magnetic gloves, minions at their command, and overall range that Marth would cream himself over.

Face it: either DDD is a sleeper top tier or every single heavyweight in the game is ***.
I'm not labelling DDD as Low Tier either, my good man. I have both DDD and Ganon, along with ROB, Bowser, DK, and Zard, solidly in Mid Tier. :smirk: Btw, ROB has very magnetic.....gloves. Have you even seen the distance from which he can ledgesnap? Come to think of it, ROB has pretty much everything you just mentioned, multiple jumps (Robo-booster), magnetic gloves, a 'minion' (gyro), and great range in his tilts and aerials.

I could be mistaken, but can't you punish Dedede OoS with any decent character and then combo him to kingdom come?

Shielding his f-tilt and then jumping puts him on the defensive in a bad way.
I've been saying this very thing for a while now: ;)
[collapse=DDD's ftilt on shields is pretty punishable.]
I can definitely agree that dtilt and downB are probably good ways of keeping the opponent out on the ground, but I'm not so sure about ftilt. That move is pretty unsafe on shields. All it takes is the opponent to start WDing OoS for him to punish ftilt. WDing OoS is actually something that I don't see enough people using. It makes a lot of DDD's junk really unsafe. If DDD ftilts you, you can turn it into a WD OoS > grab.
I can't find the other post, but I also pointed out how certain chars can even just usmash OoS or shieldgrab the ftilt if they force it to be badly spaced.[/collapse]
For some reason, people think I'm theorycrafting when these are simple applications of tactics straight out of Melee, DDD's ftilt on shields has been easily punished since vBrawl, and I, personally, have easily punished DDD's ftilt on my shield on many occasions. People need to start hitting the lab and testing these things out before they start assuming that someone is speaking out of his butt. Everything about DDD is mediocre except for his gimping prowess and his weight.
 

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
23,165
Location
Missouri
Switch FC
2687-7494-5103
Fox can no longer infinite on a wall.
 

Archangel

Smash Hero
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
6,453
Location
Wilmington, Delaware
NNID
combat22386
depends on the stage list which hasn't been officially decided as far as I know.

going back on topic....for the first time. I really want to gauge everyone's feel of Lucas on the tier list?
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
He's pretty similar to spacies in a lot of respects, but lacks a few important things they have in exchange for some good things they don't. DJC and his DJ in general give him more aerial mobility, by a lot, which can be good for tech chasing, fake out retreats, fake out approaches and the like; what is essentially an even shorter SH than falco, although being able to touch ground again that quickly isn't THAT useful since his moves come out faster; and most importantly, the ability to cancel a full hop at any height and instantly start a FF, which is good for aerialing at the perfect height before landing on platforms. With his fairly fast FF speed, his downward mobility isn't hindered that much either like a lot of characters with that kind of DJ (is there a name for the kind of DJ that can be canceled?) since they tend to be much floatier. He does lose quick upward mobility though. The new ability to do rising aerials however lets him effectively stay in the air a lot longer than them, though. His PKF is like a shorter ranged but higher advantaged on hit version of falco's laser, his \/B is obviously a lot like a shine, except with repeating hitboxes that can probably beat out CCing (not sure about this actually, there's a chance this might be too slow and I haven't worked this into my Lucas game yet) in place of the ability to auto-beat it out by having the right knockback strength/angle and sends at a great angle for follow ups like the spacies' shines. His Dair/Bair are like worse versions of the falco's dair and fox/falco's bairs lacking lingering hitboxes, since they don't linger, but his fair/uair are like better versions, what with fair respectively having a single hit and ending more quickly, and uair having a single hit to prevent SDIing out and ending more quickly. Nair pretty much replaces fox's dair, and probably has more uses since it has knockback growth and a landing hitbox, but since he doesn't have anything analogous to their nair, he lacks any lingering aerials at all and so has to be much more accurate and has less room in many cases to work with aerials. Up-b is like a worse more gimpable and predictable version of theirs (although his long double jump, down-b helping to stall while keeping forward momentum, and tether make his recovery a little less garbage), nB adds a little power to some stuff but doesn't really help with anything he has issues with. He's also got a pretty slow grab, but being more disjointed helps in some cases I guess. There's probably a few other things I didn't mention, like some of his stuff being more disjointed.

tl;dr High. Top ten probably. He's like a slightly toned down spacie if they had a djc but a useless nB and less lingering hitboxes.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
His recovery sucks so much.
Apart from that he's pretty sick

:phone:
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
Yeah I think with the new mechanic where PKT2 can hurt him once hit, combined with his tether, ability to stall, and long DJ, his recovery really isn't that bad. Maybe worse than top half, but that's not surprising when so many more characters have amazing or very good recovery now anyways. He's got a lot of options I'd say. Just none of them are particularly amazing.
 

Ryu_Ken

Ace Adventurer and Truth Seeker
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
3,281
Location
Texas
NNID
Sorastar9
3DS FC
4725-8061-1333
I think wolf should be somewhere in the top tier. In the stream last night (smash@xanadu) wolf has shown amazing combos, especially with his side-b.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
Now add somebody who is actually edeguarding instead of just watching.
His recovery sucks.

:phone:
 

Overswarm

is laughing at you
Joined
May 4, 2005
Messages
21,181
yup, next step, Fox gets his PAL Usmash and a slower Uthrow that is easier to DI and he will officially be nerfed :awesome:
You can already DI or air dodge out of it at incredibly low %, sometimes 0% depending on your character.
 

DrinkingFood

Smash Hero
Joined
May 5, 2012
Messages
5,600
Location
Beaumont, TX
Now add somebody who is actually edeguarding instead of just watching.
His recovery sucks.
I never said they were just watching, nor was I assuming they weren't edgeguarding. Is he really edgeguarded that easily? Seems like he can recover from pretty low with AD-> tether, and not every character can edge guard that low.
 

Tero.

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 18, 2008
Messages
2,686
I never said they were just watching, nor was I assuming they weren't edgeguarding. Is he really edgeguarded that easily? Seems like he can recover from pretty low with AD-> tether, and not every character can edge guard that low.
I might be biased because I play Sonic. Lucas offstage = instant death.

I just had quite a few situations where I didnt even do what i wanted to (like hit with upb/nb) and he still died, because his up b ****ed up.

Anyway if his revovery would be better he'd be crazy good (and would probably get nerfed) so its ok i guess.
Too bad there aren't many who play him

:phone:
 
Top Bottom