Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

Because Link and Mario don't run up into your face and grab you with the force of a she-god

Link Grab got nerfed to not grab people in the air so well

Mario is Mario and will always have a good throw game. Stubby arms man

 

[Archangel]

I think pit is pretty close to beast mode in 2.5. If you master the general feel of Pit his tools compared to most are just....silly lol. Plank Arrowing, Arrow juggles, Arrow gimps....and Loop shots (requires a distant opponent and very good arrow control). RAR arrowing. This versatility all with just a single move.

I think....Pit's biggest weapon is his combination of tools. He can fight, he is among the fastest characters in terms of running speed and aerial mobility.(top 8 in both I think). He's got a mirror that has heavy armor at the start and can reflect any move or projectile(projectiles return at 1.7 times speed). He has overall the best projectile in the game imo. It's not Falco's arrows but you can move it anywhere you want. Including full hop shooting down on the likes of Falco who has the best straight forward projectile but it's limited in terms of direction and control compared to Pit's *** arrows...

I could get into more details and eventually I plan on teaching people the basics of pit via video tutorial/tips but for now I'll just say....he's a ****ing ******!

 

[DMG]

Half of Pit is arrows, we all know lool

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

upthrow is fantastic on fastfallers under like battlefield side platforms. you can just do terrible things to them. i just haven't used it much because we've been experimenting with the not-starter stages for positioning/technical purposes, particularly hyrule 64.

sheik is definitely still high tier. tops? maybe. at least high.

Readjust here grab back to its NTSC form instead of PAL, then give her the option to tether as an option to avoid complete edge hogging. Lets see if she is top still.

 

[regal68]

Because Link and Mario don't run up into your face and grab you with the force of a she-god

Link Grab got nerfed to not grab people in the air so well

Mario is Mario and will always have a good throw game. Stubby arms man

Well sure Link's grab isn't hurrdurr free 0>death anymore but its absurdly good. No one else has such a long grab with low cool down (well Ivy probably). but my real problem is not them having a good grab game, its them having a free grab game.

Link's grab is literally safe because you should only ever do it after two jabs. If you get jabbed by link, you get grabbed. No one else ever had this. And its not even a remotely hard jab grab, you mash that ****; sheik you have to be close and you can mess up the grab (maybe you can avoid the jab jab grab w/DI but I havent been able to). If that wasn't enough, you get 40 free % and positioning. Oh and you get a FREE KILL MOVE. Sheik and Doc were the only ones with that in melee and sheik got hers removed. Mario gets 2-3 usmashes followed by uair chains.

Grabs with follow ups are fine; grabs that can hardly be DI'd and annihilate the entire cast w/o any skill are stupid lol.

Can you tell me why Marth's uthrow doesn't send spacies nearly as high anymore? It really destroys the early CG game.

 

[BTmoney]

I'm pretty sure it's a detection thing. The CG is indeed so much harder to do than it was before for whatever reason.

 

[regal68]

I'm pretty sure it's a detection thing. The CG is indeed so much harder to do than it was before for whatever reason.

Thank god I'm not crazy. I just had a few people on the IRC tell me it was easier in PM >_> I imagine landing deteciton is apart of it but how high he throws them seems to be significantly shorter. It used to be a good half marth length above his head, now it seems just above the head.

On an unrelated note, any hopes of making sheik bigger? she's a lot smaller from brawl and it sucks not being able to utilt through some platforms

 

[Spiffykins]

Thank god I'm not crazy. I just had a few people on the IRC tell me it was easier in PM >_> I imagine landing deteciton is apart of it but how high he throws them seems to be significantly shorter. It used to be a good half marth length above his head, now it seems just above the head.

On an unrelated note, any hopes of making sheik bigger? she's a lot smaller from brawl and it sucks not being able to utilt through some platforms

I wasn't aware of this, but if that's the case, I'm pretty sure it would mess with her Melee mojo. Melee vets are finicky about that sort of thing, not that I really blame them.

 

[Crypt]

peeps be sleepin on the bottom tiers (except G&W of course).

DDD is therapist and has a solution to all your problems

 

[DMG]

And what's the solution to all of his problems?

 

[traffic.]

Analytic Therapy.

 

[Overswarm]

And what's the solution to all of his problems?

picking a better character


heyoooooooo

although I do love Dedede's dash attack

 

[Kink-Link5]

And what's the solution to all of his problems?

More waddle dashes.

 

[9Kplus1]

picking a better character

There's not much better than best in the game

 

[Kink-Link5]

There's not much better than best in the game

But what if there were two DeDeDes and they could shoot ice

 

[DMG]

D3 best in game is statistically so improbable. I call BS

 

[CountOlaf]

My Personal Tier List

Top Tier:
Fox - He hasn't changed much, but his SH is easier to perform, making him a more consistent character to play, along with an easier one. Running C-Stick is also a nice touch for him, making him scarier when you have high percents.

Falco - I feel like his lasers come out a little higher than in melee and he can't combo the new brawl characters as effectively as fox, making the gap between the two a little larger, but Falco is still a monster. He is more likely to fall down the tier list than fox, however.

Sheik - Chain grab or not, sheik has tons of safe and effective options, and she doesn't have bad matchups, only a few difficult ones. Her combos and tech-chases are easy and effective, but her recovery seems a little worse in this than in melee. Maybe I'm insane, but it seems to be shorter.

High Tier:
Marth - Not very different from melee, but he deals with the new brawl characters very effectively with his comobs and spacing game. He still struggles to kill without f-smash or edge guards, but he is still a very good character.

Jigglypuff - Jigglypuff has a more difficult time adjusting to the new characters compared to other top / high tiers. Getting hit randomly by a move does more to Jiggs than other characters, making some of the new shenanigans other characters have effective against her. Once metagames begin to develop, she will return to her former glory.

Peach - Nothing different from my opinion of her in melee. I don't think she is as good as marth or Jigglypuff, but she is a really strong character.

Lucario - I haven't played against a good Lucario, but he seems to have very effective combos and approach options, along with ridiculous shield pressure. His recovery seems pretty bad and gimpable, and he lacks range, keeping him out of top tier.

Mario - He is really solid, with a numerous good options, but I don't think he has enough range to be as effective as sheik, who is also good at everything. His air attacks are great, and so is his gimp game, but his lack of range is a serious flaw.

Ike - Tons of range, speed, and power, but a bad recovery. After his nerf, I think he is still a high tier character, but he has to play a lot smarter and safer to prevent gimps.

Wolf - Great combos, grab game, projectile, and a better ground game than the spacies. However, his combos are harder to perform consistently, and vary greatly between characters. He also doesn't have a n-air that makes approaching as easy as it is for fox and falco.

Pit - Arrows are great, his OOS game is pretty good, and he has some interesting gimps and combos. However,his kill moves seem slow, or hard to combo into. Great camper, and solid approach, but hard to kill with.

Falcon - Not many buffs, but he is the same falcon. He can still combo every character in the game to death, but may have the same done to him.

I'm gonna stop here because this is going to take up too much room. Opinions?

 

[DrinkingFood]

Why would you ask for opinions when you could ask for facts lol
Especially when one is meaningless and the other isn't

 

[DMG]

Fact: Ike has Broccoli Sword

Opinion: He likes Veggies

 

[Spiffykins]

Fact: Ike "polishes Marth's sword" every night.

Also fact: he enjoys doing so.

 

[Crypt]

There's not much better than best in the game

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

but srsly DDD seems decent. his gimping/edgeguarding potential is off the charts (b-throw op) almost like jigglypuff with his bairs.

of course he gets knocked around a bit but all big characters do.

idk i'm fairly new to PM so i'm no one to talk about character placement but i feel as if this character has quite a bit of potential.

ALSO BOWSER BEING SLEPT ON HARDCORE. sneakyfish62 winning tournies err day.

 

[Overswarm]

I just don't see how Dedede has anything that isn't done better by another character

 

[DrinkingFood]

But not all of those characters are better than him at everything
just at some things
you don't have to have the best of any one thing to be a good character
not that I think DDD is good, just letting you know that that logic doesn't follow through.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I just don't see how Dedede has anything that isn't done better by another character

I don't see how any character does all of what DeDeDe does together better than him.

You know another character that is outclassed in every individual thing they do by at at least one other character?

Pretty boy Mario.

 

[traffic.]

Or that there is any character that is universally superior in all aspects. Nebulous rhetoric.

 

[Overswarm]

But not all of those characters are better than him at everything
just at some things
you don't have to have the best of any one thing to be a good character
not that I think DDD is good, just letting you know that that logic doesn't follow through.

No I mean there is literally nothing. Dedede doesn't have any special traits to him that make him "good". He can edgeguard certain characters, but no better than Fox or Sheik or Marth or any other character that can claim to edgeguard. He can d-throw tech chase but it is medicore in comparison to everyone else that can tech chase. He can fair you off the stage but it is far worse than someone like Jiggs or Pit could do.

He literally has no redeeming qualities. He simply has abilities that most other characters possess. Every good, actually good, character does something very well. He does nothing very well at all and has nothing to support it.

You can say Falco has a bad grab game, but that's okay because he's got a great combo game.

Falco has a bad recovery, but a great projectile.

Dedede has no "but he has this" at all. He's outclassed in every way.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Nebulous rhetoric?

Is that like a thing you're making up because it sounds like some pompous dismissive better-than-thou phrase.

 

[traffic.]

Well gee, do I copy and paste google definitions or would that be too pompous of me to presume your understanding of vocabulary. Yeah I totally made that up. It's totally not a thing. Than-thou.

 

[Kink-Link5]

https://www.google.com/search?q=nebulous+rhetoric

https://www.google.com/search?q="nebulous+rhetoric"+definition

?

No results to speak of. Stop being a douche.

 

[traffic.]

ok kinklink

try each word on their own :o

edit- **** this. it means that when you use vague and indescript terms to back up your argument it doesnt mean anything until further specified. which he then went on to do. "other people do some stuff better" is useless because it doesnt have anything specific to disagree with, but also has no grounds to argue anything because of the same problem.

and for posterity's sake, i was completely agreeing and finishing the thought in your own post before mine. so lets both stop being douche.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Okay, now explain how DeDeDe being good at several things and the best at none has anything do with vaguely worded statements.

Hyperbolic Paragon.

 

[traffic.]

also that was adorable but i'm forced to take it as a compliment

 

[Overswarm]

Nebulous just means "iffy" or "hazy". Uncertain. He used it correctly, although he didn't interpret my statement correctly by his interpretation his statement made sense. Not really understanding the disconnect.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeesh Kink, he was agreeing with you. He meant that "He's not the best at anything" is a vague, unconvincing statement since not being the best at anything doesn't necessarily mean that he's bad. Each of his individual traits might be better done by a different character, but no single character has the same combination of traits as him and can outclass him at everything that he does.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I know he was agreeing with me, but that kind of overbearing attitude isn't a good one to have regardless.

 

[KayB]

Everything Dedede can do Marth does better.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Pretty sure he can't throw waddle doos/dees/daas/duus/diis better
and can't ftilt better
or suicide swallow better
or bair wall better
and most certainly not recover better

 

[traffic.]

I know he was agreeing with me, but that kind of overbearing attitude isn't a good one to have regardless.

Yeah dude totally.

So my squirtle is getting pretty decent, gonna try and get some footage together soon for everyone to enjoy and speculate as to why he wasnt at the top of every list ever

 

[Vashimus]

Because the last thing Marth needs is Waddle Dees.

 

[DrinkingFood]

And the last thing DDD needs is speed