Tier List Speculation

[\Apples]

ZSS probably honestly does have the edge vs Link in the end, he doesn't have answers for a lot of her strengths and his only option is to play keep away mostly. But I find joy in that so idc, I'll run out the clock on anyone. lol

Hate small stages tho.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Anyone know what match ups Meta Knight would have a tough time against?

Peach would probably be one
Maybe samus?

 

[Bryonato]

What do you guys think of MK Marth? I hear some say Marth wins handily and vice versa. From my experience it feels rather even but leaning in MK's favor.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What do you guys think of MK Marth? I hear some say Marth wins handily and vice versa. From my experience it feels rather even but leaning in MK's favor.

Marth>Mk
The MU is winnable on both sides, but it's more so in marth's favor.

 

[Soft Serve]

I don't think MK really has bad matchups. He probably has some 40/60s, but he is just so fundamental solid of a character (that dash dance tho) with good disjoints and a variable recovery, I don't think its characters that give him trouble and is just getting beaten by the opponent. his worst matchups, imo, would be fox (comparatively better neutral game, one shine while MK is recovering and thats a stock, so better/equal punish game) falco (has a lock down projectile, something MK can crumble under) Mario (another very solid all around character with a good projectile) and he probably goes even with pit/ZSS/diddy/Wario/Peach/wolf/shiek,

MK/marth, its even but I think MK has an edge through converting harder by beign able to intercept marths recovery.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Peach would probably be one
Maybe samus?

Wolf much more so than Peach.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Wolf much more so than Peach.

I don't get to see wolf much :[

 

[Kink-Link5]

That big, fluid mobile shine makes what would otherwise be safe pressure with nair and dair very dangerous, concerning what wolf gets off it. He's also a character that's tricky to empty hop grab since he can get out of shield and keep moving more horizontally than other spacies. Juxtapose that with Wolf's potential offense, it means trying to use a stock to pick up patterns or get a feel for adaptation can lead to a fast kill from Wolf if you so much as blink.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

MK/Marth is even enough, except if Marth grabs MK at 70-80 it's a stock.

Soooooo.

 

[Bryonato]

MK/Marth is even enough, except if Marth grabs MK at 70-80 it's a stock.

Soooooo.

what throw accomplishes that?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Dthrow -> FSmash makes MK fly without his wings. It works at slighly lower percents, too, but is somewhat dependent on being at the right edge. If you're good at edgeguarding MK, though, he's pretty much screwed.

Bthrow works better at slightly higher percents and also to throw off his DI.

 

[JOE!]

zss confirmed bully to link

Zero Suit Groose

 

[Juushichi]

I think he might be. He'll probably end up in my bottom 10 unless a REALLY good GnW player comes up and finishes well at a tourney. Part of the problem is the lack of GnW players. Fewer people being committed to a character makes it tough for his metagame to develop, and tough for his potential to come out. He's not bottom of the barrel, but he gets punished hard by someone who knows the matchup, so I can't see him being above mid tier.

Hi! Have you met @Dakpo before? He's been doing well in a region with Awestin, Sethlon, Oracle and others for quite a long time, you know?

There is also Meiling, dark_m3troid, Meta, myself, Nap and others who all do pretty well respectively in different regions accross the country and have done so since 2.5 on. While I agree that GnW can be punished pretty hard by someone who knows the MU and that I don't see him being above mid-tier (which is not that bad, actually), commitment from the small playerbase has never been a huge issue.

The biggest problem is that Game and Watch is, bells and whistles aside, a pretty straightforward character, who might not have strong enough tools to compete at the end of the day. But we'll see as the players keep growing. : )

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

: )

Smiling is prohibited around these parts

 

[Jacob29]

I dont care what anyone says.

I love the Bowser v MK matchup. Chew him up with combos.

 

[Oracle]

Not mentioning me in top gws? OK I SEE HOW IT IS

 

[Juushichi]

Didn't you drop GnW?

But yes, how could I also forget Oracle. That guy is pretty godlike. :0

How many more Top-8s does this guy need to get?

 

[Ogopogo]

I like how a lot of the problems with janky characters are kind of just solved with "Space this far and SWORD."

Kirby main, can confirm. I think some of his hardest matchups are the swordsmen (and probably Mewtwo).

Also I arrived late to the DooDooDooze party, but I guess my avatar accidentally didn't.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Hi! Have you met @Dakpo before? He's been doing well in a region with Awestin, Sethlon, Oracle and others for quite a long time, you know?

There is also Meiling, dark_m3troid, Meta, myself, Nap and others who all do pretty well respectively in different regions accross the country and have done so since 2.5 on. While I agree that GnW can be punished pretty hard by someone who knows the MU and that I don't see him being above mid-tier (which is not that bad, actually), commitment from the small playerbase has never been a huge issue.

The biggest problem is that Game and Watch is, bells and whistles aside, a pretty straightforward character, who might not have strong enough tools to compete at the end of the day. But we'll see as the players keep growing. : )

Thanks! I watched a couple videos of him. DEFINITELY the best GnW player I've seen, but I don't think it changes too much about my opinion. He's good, but just gets wrecked by good "top tiers." Also, can we appreciate 6:55-7:10 of this video? Beautiful combos by both...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRSiQHZIH68

 

[Paradoxium]

Hi! Have you met @Dakpo before? He's been doing well in a region with Awestin, Sethlon, Oracle and others for quite a long time, you know?

There is also Meiling, dark_m3troid, Meta, myself, Nap and others who all do pretty well respectively in different regions accross the country and have done so since 2.5 on.

Just wanna say that I'm better than Meiling, yea i went there. And im not partying until 10 so if anyone wants to argue, entertain, or Netplay with me hit me up

 

[DMG]

Throw more boomerang. Become the boomerang.

I have a new Sig

 

[Toronto Joe]

Links projectiles and range are really annoying to deal w. as ZSS. I think she wins the MU on any stage with platforms though

 

[DMG]

Link's Boomerang annoying to deal w. as anyone

Fixed that for ya

 

[Sashimi]

Actually, once parrying is fixed, Boomerang won't really be a problem for Yoshi.

 

[DMG]

Good for those 3 Yoshi Mains

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I can Nair ... I'm fine with Boomerangs.

 

[DMG]

What do you guys think of MK Marth? I hear some say Marth wins handily and vice versa. From my experience it feels rather even but leaning in MK's favor.

I think Marth wins, the MK's I play against all say that he wins, but most Marth players have MK winning in varying degrees.

MK/marth, its even but I think MK has an edge through converting harder by beign able to intercept marths recovery.

I disagree with that a bit. MK is *OK* at going offstage, but does better staying onstage and preventing Marth from getting back. Marth's Fair outranges MK's aerials, including Fair possibly (MK's Fair used to be a weird arrangement of hitboxes, I dunno if they stayed relatively the same compared to Brawl or if they were smoothed out.) Either way, Marth outranges the two main edgeguard aerials you would normally see: Nair and Bair. Most MK kill moves don't send you at a nasty Sheik Slap angle, so that helps with not having to recover perfectly from below so much (which MK does cover decently and can afford to go lower and trade Nairs etc)

If you stay onstage though and wait by the edge, ready to cover options, that's much scarier to deal with. Or grabbing the edge, that can be a real pain during recovering if it forces us onstage to eat a move. Etc.

MK also has a hard time recovering against Marth. Marth sitting somewhere near the edge, or barely offstage, he stuffs most MK options. Counter takes a lot of the guess work out of options like Tornado and Side B.

MK/Marth is even enough, except if Marth grabs MK at 70-80 it's a stock.

Soooooo.

You don't even need to be that high. With incorrect/neutral DI against Marth throws, you get tipper Fsmash much earlier than that. That range is incorrect iirc for Dthrow if they have good DI, except Marth sort of traps your DI because good DI for Dthrow is very bad DI for Fthrow, and vice verse. Basically Sheik Mixup throw scenario. Dthrow at that range, with good DI, probably send them too far unless maybe you can dash/pivot Fsmash. I know you can do that to some characters, but usually doesn't apply if they go offstage because you wouldn't have the room to dash/pivot forward in the first place

Marth's throw game on MK is sick, because he's the near perfect combination of light + ff. Also in part with MK's average/possibly below average tech options, which is quite juicy for Marth. If you Fthrow at low %, chances are they will be set up for a tech chase regardless of DI. Muy Bueno

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't know what to do with this game anymore. I was gonna practice a little, but now I want to play Gourmet Race.

 

[Nguz95]

You... don't want to play PM? Por que?

 

[Oro?!]

Links projectiles and range are really annoying to deal w. as ZSS. I think she wins the MU on any stage with platforms though

Do you main ZSS, or kinda just switch around characters a lot in PM? Saw you bodying some people on stream at that big Canada tournament.

 

[Deleted member]

what throw accomplishes that?

marth's upthrow on MK is pretty brutal, with or without platforms.

i actually think MK wins this match though.

 

[Oro?!]

I agree with Umbreon. Losing the neutral game as significantly as Marth does, like worse than vs Fox/Falco/Sheik, Marth's punish game despite how early or easily MK dies, seems irrelevant.

 

[Nguz95]

Interesting. I'm having this exact conversation with a friend right now. He thinks Ganon is ridiculous because he punishes harder than a truck. i keep on telling him Ganon loses neutral hard, so punishes shouldn't be that big of a deal.

 

[The_Altrox]

Interesting. I'm having this exact conversation with a friend right now. He thinks Ganon is ridiculous because he punishes harder than a truck. i keep on telling him Ganon loses neutral hard, so punishes shouldn't be that big of a deal.

What is the best way to play Ganon neutral? I try to be both careful and aggressive, but I know I can get outplayed by the right combo of enemies...

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Strong attacks don't mean anything if you don't get openings to land them.

 

[Oro?!]

First hit is pretty important in 64/Melee/PM. Even more so when there are heavy punishes in the matchup.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Are we at the point where we don't even consider the fact that people can make mistakes in the neutral causing the game winning hit, or that people can be outplayed in the neutral, leading to a successful hit? Also how often do we assume that one hit leads into stock? Just some general questions.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As the level of play improves, fewer and smaller mistakes are made, so neutral just becomes more and more important. When you get to the top level, it is assumed that being outplayed is a much rarer thing to see.

 

[Nguz95]

What is the best way to play Ganon neutral? I try to be both careful and aggressive, but I know I can get outplayed by the right combo of enemies...

Honestly I'm not entirely sure. I know his game is punish-centric, but it seems like there are an almost infinite number of ways to set up a punish. You can space aerials on people's shield (retreating fair, bair, landing behind the opponent, etc.) to try and bait a shield grab or any other reaction out of shield. You can fast-fall nair in open space or do a different aerial in an attempt to get the opponent to approach. You can use platforms to move toward your opponent and apply pressure. You could do a million different things.

One general trend I've noticed, however, is that all of these options are focused on producing a certain result from your opponent. You want them to react in a predictable way so you can hit them while they are vulnerable. The best way to do that is to make your opponent uncomfortable. Being in close proximity to your opponent (as Ganon) is the best way to make him antsy. That way you can threaten pressure without actually committing to anything. It also keeps you relatively safe from projectiles, as most projectiles have a certain amount of startup or endlag that you can capitalize on.

If you're always just outside the range of your opponent's farthest-reaching move, you'll be safe until your opponent makes a move. When he makes a move, he puts himself in danger as well. That moment, when he has decided to act, is a moment when you can punish him.

On the other hand, you can make the first move and still be safe. If you are always within the range of your own farthest reaching move, you are always threatening your opponent. When you commit to something (a fair, a nair, an ftilt, etc.), you can follow up with a jab or an ftilt to cover his counter-measure.

In short, I know keeping close to your opponent is best, as it keeps you in control of the pace of the match, but I don't know the mix of baiting and waiting that is most effective.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Lol at all the boomerang hate.

...Link ain't Falco.