Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

Nope DF, I'm sorry but the answer is basically don't play ROB

What a great move MK's Dair is. Better not say anything else, or the storm of "I LIEK MK'S DAIR DON'T CHANGE IT" will soon follow

Oh yeah. Get a gyro out. Then grab it. If MK tries anything, stay near the ground and AGT toss it to punish him for stupid Dair stuff

Best advice in general is to let MK land or Dair crazy without challenging it initially, then trying to punish or trap him later. Yes his Dair is that stupid

 

[Deleted member]

I'll take the bait. Yes. Because you like Zelda, your opinions are less valid.

What happens now?

Nothing. I wasn't baiting anybody. I'm simply pointing out a condescending attitude, one that I've grown particularly tired of. DMG has responded multiple times to posts I have made poking fun at the fact that I like playing Zelda, even when I wasn't talking about her. Once is a joke, twice is a stale joke, three times is an insinuation that he doesn't take the opinions of Zelda players seriously.

We get it DMG, you don't like her. If you're really interested in actual discussion, you'll stop with the quick, snide, vapid remarks in general discussion, put some actual time into learning how to play with/against her, and then take your butt over to the Zelda boards to talk about how you think she could be improved with people who actually enjoy and care about the character.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Nope DF, I'm sorry but the answer is basically don't play ROB

What a great move MK's Dair is. Better not say anything else, or the storm of "I LIEK MK'S DAIR DON'T CHANGE IT" will soon follow

Oh yeah. Get a gyro out. Then grab it. If MK tries anything, stay near the ground and AGT toss it to punish him for stupid Dair stuff

Best advice in general is to let MK land or Dair crazy without challenging it initially, then trying to punish or trap him later. Yes his Dair is that stupid

My only other options are Bowser or M2 though, who am I SUPPOSED to pick? Somehow I don't feel like M2 wins that MU with having bad coverage at an angle just like ROB, and for Bowser... MK has a quick run speed for easy JC grabs, and amazing throws; haven't tried that MU much though. But how the **** do I get a gyro out without getting bum rushed, and possibly getting it stolen from me, or having to give up the rest of the stage. It's not exactly a fast move. Do I basically have to hardcore outplay them, take a stock, and use that time to get a gyro out, that's seriously how it feels.

Also I'm pretty sure MK has a few animations where ROB will just toss the gyro over his head unless he's across the stage, which is really ****ing stupid, can't remember which animations but I'm pretty sure dair is one of them.

 

[DMG]

Oh I've posted plenty of valid points about Zelda, what to change about her, what to buff and what to retool so that she's enjoyable for everyone. I don't think I've done so in the hellspawn known as the Zelda boards, but enough roaming Zelda players have seen my remarks I would guess. Plenty of people have seen the legit posts about her from me, Umbreon, and many other Zelda "haters" at this point.

All of that doesn't really matter much, because let's be honest she's probably not going to get changed much unless the rumor is true. Healthy discourse about how to fix Zelda has not changed her development path in the past. In fact, the usual responses to any Zelda comments are (and I quote):

1. "Well you don't play her so whatever!"

2. "You don't know the MU"

3. "Just because she is boring, doesn't mean she needs changes!"

4. "I don't care if she's janky and bleh, I personally like her so I'm going to ignore these points that might actually make my character better and less cheesy!"

DF: I dunno the answer for you. It's clearly not Bowser. Try M2 and play like a god. Charge Shadowball if he jumps higher in the air, and use Utilt. Utilt should trade with his Dair iirc, with you coming out on top. You can also let him Dair somewhere *safe* and quickly SH Teleport to punish. If you have big cajones, you can also try floating up/around MK and use Bair/Uair to swat at him. If he Dairs, you can either trade/win/eat the hit and SDI out of it due to floaty M2!

I beat MK's with Marth, but I seem to be the big outlier on that so idk if he would work

 

[DrinkingFood]

Also for some ungodly reason MK's fsmash combos into dsmash on shield
I hope his dair can actually be reliably SDI'd out of, admittedly I'm not sure if I've put much thought into doing that

 

[jtm94]

The Zelda boards aren't hellspawn at all.. We're fairly calm and collected and most of the other players that come into there to leave their 2 cents don't think she needs changed drastically. You can say what you will, I'm just getting tired of always seeing people slip in snide remarks of boomerang, or Zelda, or "insert overly stated complaint."

Are people still placing MK high on the tiers? For sure he's fast and all, with a sword no-less, but I've yet to see "that one" MK player to make him seem as good as he's talked to be. I guess fast/safe moves coupled with good recovery and edge guard potential might be enough to warrant a high position, but he might be overstated.

 

[The_Altrox]

Hey, I don't know if this has been addressed or not (if it has, haha, joke's on me), but are Dr. Mario and Mario supposed to have the same projectiles? I know Doc's is reskinned, but the pills actually function differently. I tested this with Olimar. While Olimar's red pikmin are immune to the fireballs, they are NOT immune to the pills. I thought maybe since Doc seems electricity based, the yellow ones would be immune, but no. Essentially, when facing Olimar, Dr. Mario is better than Mario. If they were separate characters, I'd get that, but since Doc (I assume) is supposed to be a costume and he has all the regular stuff that Mario has otherwise, this seems to be something that should be fixed unless it's a joke or an "FU" to whatever Olimar players remain.

 

[Deleted member]

First of all, the Zelda boards are not hellspawn. Far from it. If you waddled on over there sometime instead of making assumptions, you'd know that. In fact, if you had ever gone there, you'd see that there are multiple Zelda players who agree that she should receive changes for various reasons, myself included. Maybe not to the same degree as you, but don't pretend like we're all resistant to change. Also, the fact that you don't play her is significant. You have a cocky attitude as if you know the character inside and out, as if you have nothing left to learn. Then you go around making "jokes," occasionally offering suggestions about how the character can be made more fun for you, a non-Zelda player, rather than the people who have played her from the start, and you expect us to value what you say? Change the way you approach this issue and maybe you'll get somewhere. Or you can continue to act like a snide know-it-all who just wants to join in on the weekly Zelda-hate circle jerk. Your call.

 

[jtm94]

I know they coded the Dr Mario pills to be different because I ran into that issue as well. I know the yellow pikmin are safe from fsmash even though Mario's fsmash is fire. Maybe post it in bugs and they'll get to it eventually, I don't rank it as an alarming issue, but they should be able to fix it easily.

 

[The_Altrox]

I know they coded the Dr Mario pills to be different because I ran into that issue as well. I know the yellow pikmin are safe from fsmash even though Mario's fsmash is fire. Maybe post it in bugs and they'll get to it eventually, I don't rank it as an alarming issue, but they should be able to fix it easily.

I would hope so.
Honestly though, even if yellows were immune to pills, it still causes a player issue. A lot of people gravitate towards certain pikmin, so the fact that Mario can counter an Olimar by the costume he chooses is kind of ridiculous. I'm not going to say that we should remove the skins. They are a great addition. But some consistency would be nice...

 

[DMG]

Also for some ungodly reason MK's fsmash combos into dsmash on shield
I hope his dair can actually be reliably SDI'd out of, admittedly I'm not sure if I've put much thought into doing that

You can do it fairly reliably if you are airborne when getting hit by it/not close to the ground.

Smashfromthefututesaltguy: I don't join in on the weekly Zelda hate wagon. I start it, along with UmbreontheAlmighty

@ Oro?! BOOMERANG! Tag me back and we'll start a Boomerang war!

Zelda is ok, Link is ok, the real scum of the week will be Charizard what a disgusting Nair

 

[Cassio]

I'm having a hard time finding solutions to where he just double jumps above me at an angle (where ROB already sucks at covering), out of quick reach, and then randomly dives at me

Well timed spot dodge? I dont know what the frames for ROBs spot dodge are.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Well timed spot dodge? I dont know what the frames for ROBs spot dodge are.

I wish I knew how to find the frame data for MK's dair, it be easier that way
ROB's spotdodge is probs invincible starting on frame 2, 3, or 4 like most characters anyway

 

[Cassio]

I wish I knew how to find the frame data for MK's dair, it be easier that way
ROB's spotdodge is probs invincibile starting on frame 2, 3, or 4 like most characters anyway

Its not about start-up so much as ending. Dair is a commitment, so youd want to time your spot dodge so the attack lands on the last invincibility frames of your spot dodge. MKs frame data is there, l-canceled it has 13 frames of lag, and most melee spot dodges I think had 7ish lag frames. Anything else thatd allow you to not be stuck in your shield might work, like pivoting or walking outside its range and then attacking with a ranged move, I'm not sure of ROBs ability in this case.

 

[DrinkingFood]

MKs frame data is there, l-canceled it has 13 frames of lag

Did you pull this from brawlbox? PMBR has said that landing lags from brawl box aren't accurate for PM
Not sure what the difference is but every time someone posts a frame data thread PMBR has to correct them on that

 

[Cassio]

@ DrinkingFood Its from the frame data thread on the MK boards, lol. I dont know if thats right or wrong. I wish frame data were more easily available.

 

[Jacob29]

That complaining... NO JOHNS!!! (how ridicolous is it to use character johns in PM, they may be valid in Brawl and Melee, but in PM?)

I don't think it's that ridiculous. The game's balance seems to have gone away from

'These characters are better because they are better'

to

'These characters are better because they have the least bad matchups'

What I usually notice is that the top tiers people keep placing seem to be all around good vs most of the cast. Such as Fox. Other characters got buffed to be on-par with him, but he is such a solid character that even his worst matchup probably isn't a full out lost game.

Where as if you pick Bowser he has some really REALLY ****ty match ups which can just absolutely wreck him. So, sure less character Johns, but the cast is definitely not perfectly balanced. The john is different though your character doesn't suck it's just that it sucks when fighting a certain style and other character.

 

[Paradoxium]

I need help with Meta-night too. He's faster, stronger, and has a better grab game than Pika. Need some suggestions, just don't tell me to play a different character.

 

[ss118]

I need help with Meta-night too. He's faster, stronger, and has a better grab game than Pika. Need some suggestions, just don't tell me to play a different character.

All of MKs moves have 1-2 of the following three properties:

Range, speed, or power.

For example, nair has speed and power but lacks range and fsmash has power + range but lacks speed, while his fair could be considered to have speed + range but lacks power. Taking this into account, you need to figure out how your opponent plays MK and work around it. If they like to just run around and nair then pretend he's fox and outspace him. If he's constantly playing a strong neutral with stuff like ftilt and fair then you don't really need to be worried about follow ups, just respect and outplay similar to marth using fairs. I don't need to say that if he's using slow moves just pretend he's bowser.

Obviously a good MK player won't stick to one style, but even the best have a particular pattern. He has movement that seems similar to fox's with a good DD game and not good air mobility unless he dashes first, but his nair plane hits hard and he's harder to gimp. He also has a sword, but his moves are more specific than foxes so there's always ways to place yourself to punish things. I personally think his dair isn't that good, but maybe I'm alone. It's a good anti-juggle move but it will get you punished more than not. idk I think MK is the best character and has been for a while, and I think he is better than 2.6 Ivysaur but people just suck. about time people started complaining about him lol

 

[DMG]

MK would be the absolute best if:

1. CC didn't poop on his attacks

2. If he was noticeably better offstage (edgeguarding and recovering both)

3. Even better throw mixup game (new Uthrow that legit CG's certain or gives 100% guaranteed free hits regardless of DI, dat Marth/Ike Uthrow)

Change any one of those aspects and he'd probably be on top. Any of those would be terrifying.

 

[ss118]

CC only poops on his attacks if you do things like spam dair or only ftilt.

He fine offstage, nair / bair are fine. If I understood his up B I'm sure it would have shenanigans too for edgeguarding, and I'm pretty sure he has some of the most varying recoveries in the game.

His dthrow is a stupid tech chase akin to melee sheik dthrow, what more do you want?

 

[Soft Serve]

Falco lasers

 

[Oro?!]

Didn't mean to start a war back there. All I was trying to relay was that boomerang is really really really really good. ZSS (and others I bet) struggles in particular in dealing with it, and lingering projectiles on the whole. The 14% post was more of a factual statement showing aside from it's startup and no conceivable recovery time, the move has other incredible properties. Sorry if that leads to personal attacks and posts unrelated to the threads purpose.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Not questioning the change from bad characters to bad MUs but too many people just complain because they get annoyed by a strategy and are not creative enough to find a solution and they say "that MU is losing"

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

The vast majority of matchups in pm seem to fall within the 45:55 range, the differences just seem larger. 95% of the time your character wins because you are outplaying the opponent, and outplaying the opponent is how you win in any fighting game.

 

[Kink-Link5]

My only other options are Bowser or M2 though, who am I SUPPOSED to pick? Somehow I don't feel like M2 wins that MU with having bad coverage at an angle just like ROB, and for Bowser... MK has a quick run speed for easy JC grabs, and amazing throws; haven't tried that MU much though. But how the **** do I get a gyro out without getting bum rushed, and possibly getting it stolen from me, or having to give up the rest of the stage. It's not exactly a fast move. Do I basically have to hardcore outplay them, take a stock, and use that time to get a gyro out, that's seriously how it feels.

Also I'm pretty sure MK has a few animations where ROB will just toss the gyro over his head unless he's across the stage, which is really ****ing stupid, can't remember which animations but I'm pretty sure dair is one of them.

I'll still contend that Wolf wrecks face against MK and makes those stupid dair approaches extremely unsafe.

And R.O.B. in turn seems to do pretty well against Wolf if they want to try the ditto.

MK would be the absolute best if:

1. CC didn't poop on his attacks

MK has one of the best empty hop grabs in the game, on top of huge momentum gains from a grab. CC'ing is a concern for chracters like Squirtle that don't have that option available, but MK can easily get a grab on an opponent looking for an aerial.

 

[NightShadow6]

Yo MKs dair isn't really that good for approaching, if he is in the air he can only go down or a bit forward. You should be able to bait it out with a DD and punish on reaction.

If Meta Knight gets hit it can easily be a stock for him as he gets combod hard.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yo MKs dair isn't really that good for approaching, if he is in the air he can only go down or a bit forward. You should be able to bait it out with a DD and punish on reaction.

If Meta Knight gets hit it can easily be a stock for him as he gets combod hard.

The issue was using ROB's terrible DD to do that

 

[Nguz95]

Grabs mess up MK's day big time. he's super frail, and I think the many ways to take advantage of his frailty will keep him in check for a while.

 

[Jacob29]

I think there are definitely some 60:40's.

 

[Bryonato]

Case in point: Ness Marth, Ness Sheik, Ness Ivy, Ness Link

with ness being on the losing side

 

[Rᴏb]

Does Ness even win any match-ups? I especially can't imagine him having a 60:40 advantage on anyone...

I know little to nothing about the character except that PK fire can only go so far, so.

 

[Bryonato]

Yeah ness goes even in plenty and wins a few. IMO the mu's he wins are ganon, sonic, ddd, and arguments can be made for zard/squirtle/pika (maybe bowser)

 

[DMG]

People really think the game is mostly 55:45? Go look at some of Captain Falcon's losing MU's. Or MU's MK wins. There's a lot of ugly looking stuff out there.


MK CC issue: yes I'm fully aware that MK can overcome CC by grabbing instead. He's a bit linear in that manner though, without a lot of solid anti CC moves to rely on if grabbing is hard. My point was that if he didn't have a CC problem, he would be the super top tier threat with grabs + moves you can't poopie on with CC. He has enough downsides/issues in other areas of gameplay, that it's hard to consider him the best character

 

[Jacob29]

I think Ness definitely beats Bowser.

Combo's him to a spike way too good. F-air, F-air, D-air kills the giant turtle most of the time.

Against other opponents you have to read them, but with Bowser it's probably gonna hit. My friend who mains Ness thinks it's way too easy to pull of on Bowser as well.

I don't think it should be changed though, it's just one of those things.

The MU can be won though, depending on the stage. If Bowser can counter-pick the ness to a smaller stage then it's closer to a 50:50.

 

[Bryonato]

Even aside from how much Ness can get out of a single hit, it's verrrrrrrrry easy to pkfire camp him.

 

[Cassio]

crouch cancelling definitely wrecks MK. I'm not going to bother CCing as much if Im in range of his grab, but I will if hes trying to space against me it effectively nerfs his range advantage.

also Im pretty sure he still has transcendent priority, so projectile characters shouldnt be complaining too much since can do a lot to control the pace of the game.

 

[idol]

Our top 3 all play Link... People have gone from saying he is mid to s tier. Do to the people who say link is mid how do you beat him? I play only Snake and get out camped or just combo'd. Despite Di or positioning. He has tools to cover everything

 

[Oracle]

There are reasons to change something other than it being too good. Links boomerang is close to frame safe, cant be rolled away from, cant always be jumped over because of the angles, and combos into basically whatever (including itself). Its so much better than almost all of his moves that 90% of the time, boomerang is just what you should be using. Getting that much mileage off of a single move that outclasses most of his other options is clearly not very good game design

 

[Kokomaniac]

Ness is better than people give him credit for I think. Dat magnet tho