Rizner
Smash Ace
That would be ridiculous. But yeah, makes sense. I have to play the matchup more to know what hits or outranges his stuff.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
I like how a lot of the problems with janky characters are kind of just solved with "Space this far and SWORD."
Paradoxium
Smash Master
I used a full bucket against Zelda and she lived, but she did take heavy damage.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
It was intentionally made to look exactly like the dash attack so that it could function as a 50/50 mix-up. And blocking isn't your only option. If you look at the hitboxes on the move, Wario is actually pretty exposed while performing the side-b, so spacing an attack to hit him out of it while he is charging will cover both side-b and dash grab options simotaneously. If you don't have time to space an attack, you can roll behind him as he's charging.
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Burnsy
Smash Lord
GnW just needs a couple decent reads to get ridiculously huge damage output. That's one of his important strengths in my opinion.
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Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Hm... I think GnW has more problems with characters that can dance out of his range rather than sword characters alone. atm, I feel like his worst MUs are: TL, Link, Fox, Falco and Peach. The MU that felt the worst usually fluctuates between TL and Fox. Depending on who you ask (like Dakpo), Marth and Ike don't feel too bad. I personally switch on Marth for the most part, as well as Link and Peach, but play out just about everything else.
I guess jank is a pretty good word to describe him, but I think his quirks only reside in the fact that most of his moves seem really really good on paper and even in practice--- when you don't know what's going on. Otherwise, his combo starters are pretty limited, his high % kills are rather dubious and you spend most of your time trying to trick people in neutral to committing to bad approaches, getting annoyed by bacon* and forgetting the ranges that you're actually good at covering (including DACUS).
As far as camping matchups goes. Aside from the Links and Peach, which feel like an absolute nightmares, I think he does rather well in those MUs. I believe Zelda, Mewtwo, and Samus all felt even-ish, Snake is slight disadvantage, and Ivy is probably slightly more disadvantageous than that.
Overall, there are around 42 characters? I'd put him high in the bottom 1/4th of the cast. He might break into the bit just above that, since he's around that quality of character, imo.
@
Burnsy
: I would trade Wario's ability to snowball reads into stocks over GnW's 99% of the time.
*really matchup dependent.
I guess jank is a pretty good word to describe him, but I think his quirks only reside in the fact that most of his moves seem really really good on paper and even in practice--- when you don't know what's going on. Otherwise, his combo starters are pretty limited, his high % kills are rather dubious and you spend most of your time trying to trick people in neutral to committing to bad approaches, getting annoyed by bacon* and forgetting the ranges that you're actually good at covering (including DACUS).
As far as camping matchups goes. Aside from the Links and Peach, which feel like an absolute nightmares, I think he does rather well in those MUs. I believe Zelda, Mewtwo, and Samus all felt even-ish, Snake is slight disadvantage, and Ivy is probably slightly more disadvantageous than that.
Overall, there are around 42 characters? I'd put him high in the bottom 1/4th of the cast. He might break into the bit just above that, since he's around that quality of character, imo.
@
Burnsy
: I would trade Wario's ability to snowball reads into stocks over GnW's 99% of the time.*really matchup dependent.
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Oro?!
Smash Hero
Okay extremely general stuff, go. To start off, I believe ZSS to be an extremely good character. Much like Melee tops, she has the tools to be versatile in basically any situation, however, her tools are not nearly as intuitive as Melee tops. The amount of matchup specific and % specific details for her punish game is astounding, and the general go to neutral game options differ soooo much between matchups and playstyles. The reason I say everything is unintuitive, is because not very many of her moves work well together. There is not much in the sense of a Sheik any move>slap or spacies shine-> anything. All of her moves are very CCable except moves that paralyze, and having the slowest grab startup in the game at 16 frames doesn't help much to alleviate those issues of a weak anti crouch game. In addition, the majority of her moves combo potential is heavily affected by DI, but her moves work well together in the sense that the "correct DI" for one aerials is the incorrect DI for another. On top of that, the fact that ZSS does not kill very early at all means you need to consistently mix up your opponents DI to maximize the likely hood of a more damaging combo while still leaving yourself available options for a kill move setup.
Her neutral game is very reminiscent of Melee tops, and that is something that greatly appeals to me. It is heavily based on dash dancing, wavedashing, and just general movement traps. Having the 4th fastest run speed and a wavedash length right behind Marth's definitely gives you that super dash dance bros feel. Her versatility definitely comes in handy for her neutral game in terms of both offense and defense. Most noteworthy against larger characters, is that she has a lot of moves that have massive range but slow start ups like DSmash and Plasma whip (sideB). Characters with fast mobility or jump squats usually invalidate these moves like Sheik/Fox unless you are tech chasing, comboing, or read a movement/attack option. Big characters though, struggle massively vs these types of moves. They are safe enough on shield, match or exceed the range of characters like DK/DDD/Ganon/Bowser, and lead to ZSS' most "guaranteed" setups. Against faster characters, like Fox for instance, it becomes much more reminiscent of Melee. You don't have any sort of solid punish game until 30-40%, similar to Sheik, unless you manage to land a dsmash really. That means there is a lot of footsies, poking, and pressure/dealing with Fox pressure. In my experience, shorter characters like Squirtle/Lucas/Ness are very annoying to deal with in neutral. Blaster is basically rendered useless, and the only moves that hit small targets are bair/unsafe nairs, plasma whip, and dsmash. This isn't to say that these are bad matchups for ZSS, they just kind of invalidate a lot of ZSS strengths and versatility. The thing I feel like ZSS struggles the most with in neutral, is strong projectiles. This list includes, but is not limited to Falco/Wolf/Link/TL/Mario. All of those characters get significant stage control and hitconfirms off of their relatively safe projectiles. ZSS does not have the best options to deal with projectiles, like at all. Her hitboxes are not very meaty, and nair cannot clank with even with projectiles that can clank like Wolf/Mario. Falco is definitely the easiest to deal with among the characters I named. Crouching and platform movement alongside powershielding makes it very managable, and if you can get a laser in yourself, then Falco is likely put into a hugely disadvantaged position. Wolf/Mario have the benefit of being able to move freely behind their projectiles that you can't really deal with, and both have hugely potent punish games on ZSS. Link/TL are basically my most hated matchups. I did not sign up to play a bullet hell, I signed up to play smash bros. Both boomerangs and bombs for either character have the easiest hitconfirms ever, and Link can kill around 100% with bomb->dair, boomerang->dair, or dthrow-> dair. Link's "sweetspot" on his rang that let's you have the easiest hitconfirms ever, is longer than the swing range on fsmash 1, has practically no start up, and no cooldown. No me gusta. TL is more managable, but has the small character syndrome that I hate and greatly reduces neutral game options while still making me play a bullet hell.
All of this being said, I feel she is definitely top 10 character material. The matchups that make you struggle, are basically spacies, ROB, and the Links. She is a big character destroyer, and combos floaties better than most characters can ever dream of. I barely feel like I have scratched the surface of unlocking this characters potential, and I still have a long ways to go.
In my limited experience, it definitely feels like a even matchup. Similarly to Marth, really only nair is threatening in terms of range for Roy. SideB/Fsmash are incredibly punishable, and getting dsmashed likely means you got read pretty hard.
I wouldn't really call small blaster a "hitconfirm" since you basically have to know that the blaster will hit, be dash cancelling at a fairly fast speed, and commit to whatever the blaster follow up is before the laser hits. Those are all pretty preventable things. ZSS dash cancelling at close-mid ranges means that she does not have crouch options readily available to her, meaning that there isn't really threat of dtilt/dsmash/utilt. At close ranges, there is definitely not enough time to do any aerial even, so the only possible things for ZSS to do would be JC grab or dash attack. JC grab never ever combos from small blaster, and dash attack doesnt knockdown very early and is very punishable on shield.
Small blaster and the large blaster shot both have significant startup as well. If the ZSS is doing aerial laser startups, dash attacking underneath her is a fairly consistent way to punish if you can get in that range.
Long range blasters should almost never connect, and neither should charged blasters.
Press buttons, do damage until their stock is gone.
Bcuz Metroid lost his soot.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
you jump and press the green button to combo them Kappa
JOE!
Smash Hero
Looking at the roster, I would say about 10/41 characters have significant disjoint (sword, hammer, whip).
When a character has a fundamental weakness vs about 25% of characters, is that a problem?
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
I mean that's my gameplan with Lucas. Kappa b
Love seeing what you have to say on ZSS, Oro. #ZeroSuitSucks
D
Deleted member
Guest
no thats for melee characters. brawl characters you press the air dodge button.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
ZSS is good.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Questions. Back in 2.1, why wasn't Falco hailed as the ultimate Ike counter? SHL shuts down QD.
On a related note, which of Marth/Link cover Ike's bad match-ups better? Particularly Falco, but not necessarily Fox. Fox's projectile doesn't have hitstun, so.
On a related note, which of Marth/Link cover Ike's bad match-ups better? Particularly Falco, but not necessarily Fox. Fox's projectile doesn't have hitstun, so.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
2.1 didn't have Melee KB stacking so melee Falco players didn't like how he felt.
batistabus
Smash Journeyman
Yeah **** the Links!
Oro?!
Smash Hero
But I thought they were low tire.
Blade-Fox
Smash Apprentice
...Maining this woman.
Greatly appreciate the post. Very helpful.
That never stopped Fox.
D
Deleted member
Guest
all my moves combo into fair.
all of your moves are stupid.
i'm feeling particularly belligerent today.
Oro?!
Smash Hero
Stupid as in good or bad.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
This feels like a rap, almost.
"My moves, they combo into fair.
Your moves, the combo's ain't there."
"My moves, they combo into fair.
Your moves, the combo's ain't there."
Rizner
Smash Ace
If you are going for the same timing, you may want another syllable in line 2.
Fixed for you.
JOE!
Smash Hero
Well, he is also Fox.
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Look every time someone makes a statement like this I have to take Prozac
So could we just
You know
Okay?
Rᴏb
still here, just to suffer
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
- Messages
- 1,595
Are you saying you think GnW actually belongs in the bottom 5?
JOE!
Smash Hero
Whats wrong with it? I'm stating that fox is a different character who isn't particularly weak to sword users thanks to his ability to circumvent the range "issue" with agility. For others, it is more of an issue...
Also, I find it kinda interesting the "portions" of the cast that fall into X or Y category like Floaty, Swords, etc. May look into that deeper hmm...
I like how comments about Wario, G&W, and now ZSS, all basically said "Link/TL are basically my most hated matchups."
Must be good characters or something.
On top of that, the fact that ZSS does not kill very early at all means you need to consistently mix up your opponents DI to maximize the likely hood of a more damaging combo while still leaving yourself available options for a kill move setup.
D-Smash is a free combo into Dive-Kick or simply charged F-Smash. I've yet to understand how she is to be considered as lacking in ability to kill, when almost anything can lead to a free kill or edge-guard.
DSmash. Characters with fast mobility or jump squats usually invalidate these moves like Sheik/Fox unless you are tech chasing, comboing, or read a movement/attack option. They are safe enough on shield, match or exceed the range of characters like DK/DDD/Ganon/Bowser, and lead to ZSS' most "guaranteed" setups.
Why is this.^
Not applicable to this.
Against faster characters, like Fox for instance, it becomes much more reminiscent of Melee.
D-Smash is perfect out of a the DD game, being more ranged than most neutral stuff, guaranteeing set-ups, and can't be punished easily unless you're crazy-baller after blasters or something.
You don't have any sort of solid punish game until 30-40%, D-Smash and Up-B lead to free Grabs lead to combos
similar to Sheik, unless you manage to land a dsmash really. So why not do that since it's the best option and there's no draw-back to it?
That means there is a lot of footsies, poking, and pressure/dealing with Fox pressure. Just camp with D-Smash more, the small-ranged characters get cornered inevitably.
In my experience, shorter characters like Squirtle/Lucas/Ness are very annoying to deal with in neutral. Blaster is basically rendered useless, and the only moves that hit small targets are bair/unsafe nairs, plasma whip, and dsmash. Blaster is always useless, and D-Smash pwns short people. Ta-dah!
I wouldn't really call small blaster a "hitconfirm" since you basically have to know that the blaster will hit, be dash cancelling at a fairly fast speed, and commit to whatever the blaster follow up is before the laser hits. Those are all pretty preventable things. ZSS dash cancelling at close-mid ranges means that she does not have crouch options readily available to her, meaning that there isn't really threat of dtilt/dsmash/utilt. At close ranges, there is definitely not enough time to do any aerial even, so the only possible things for ZSS to do would be JC grab or dash attack. JC grab never ever combos from small blaster, and dash attack doesnt knockdown very early and is very punishable on shield.
Small blaster and the large blaster shot both have significant startup as well. If the ZSS is doing aerial laser startups, dash attacking underneath her is a fairly consistent way to punish if you can get in that range.
Sounds like Blaster isn't very good.
BUT!!!!!
You can just Dash into D-Smash and Blaster can actually lead to a set-up for something useful.
Ta-dah! It works after all.
Long range blasters should almost never connect, and neither should charged blasters.
...
The un-intuitive nature of her, (and others "Lucariocough") make me really confused on why people just spam that Melee flavor (N-Air-planes) with everyone coming into the game...
Then I remember that Melee is fun, and that's where most of us came from.
Still though... ZSS players are all weird. I still don't get that part of the community.
Lordling
QD releasing is enough to knock Falco down quite easily, and is quick enough to cover a threatening distance, and lasers aren't just to lock QD down (see my earlier comments on Falco in the last few pages), if anything, they'll be gravitating towards FORCING you to DD Shield them, or attempt a QD through them under his conditions.
Ike is fine against the bird.
Must be good characters or something.
I just quoted everything from IN THERE^ out here.
On top of that, the fact that ZSS does not kill very early at all means you need to consistently mix up your opponents DI to maximize the likely hood of a more damaging combo while still leaving yourself available options for a kill move setup.
D-Smash is a free combo into Dive-Kick or simply charged F-Smash. I've yet to understand how she is to be considered as lacking in ability to kill, when almost anything can lead to a free kill or edge-guard.
DSmash. Characters with fast mobility or jump squats usually invalidate these moves like Sheik/Fox unless you are tech chasing, comboing, or read a movement/attack option. They are safe enough on shield, match or exceed the range of characters like DK/DDD/Ganon/Bowser, and lead to ZSS' most "guaranteed" setups.
Why is this.^
Not applicable to this.
Against faster characters, like Fox for instance, it becomes much more reminiscent of Melee.
D-Smash is perfect out of a the DD game, being more ranged than most neutral stuff, guaranteeing set-ups, and can't be punished easily unless you're crazy-baller after blasters or something.
You don't have any sort of solid punish game until 30-40%, D-Smash and Up-B lead to free Grabs lead to combos
similar to Sheik, unless you manage to land a dsmash really. So why not do that since it's the best option and there's no draw-back to it?
That means there is a lot of footsies, poking, and pressure/dealing with Fox pressure. Just camp with D-Smash more, the small-ranged characters get cornered inevitably.
In my experience, shorter characters like Squirtle/Lucas/Ness are very annoying to deal with in neutral. Blaster is basically rendered useless, and the only moves that hit small targets are bair/unsafe nairs, plasma whip, and dsmash. Blaster is always useless, and D-Smash pwns short people. Ta-dah!
I wouldn't really call small blaster a "hitconfirm" since you basically have to know that the blaster will hit, be dash cancelling at a fairly fast speed, and commit to whatever the blaster follow up is before the laser hits. Those are all pretty preventable things. ZSS dash cancelling at close-mid ranges means that she does not have crouch options readily available to her, meaning that there isn't really threat of dtilt/dsmash/utilt. At close ranges, there is definitely not enough time to do any aerial even, so the only possible things for ZSS to do would be JC grab or dash attack. JC grab never ever combos from small blaster, and dash attack doesnt knockdown very early and is very punishable on shield.
Small blaster and the large blaster shot both have significant startup as well. If the ZSS is doing aerial laser startups, dash attacking underneath her is a fairly consistent way to punish if you can get in that range.
Sounds like Blaster isn't very good.
BUT!!!!!
You can just Dash into D-Smash and Blaster can actually lead to a set-up for something useful.
Ta-dah! It works after all.
Long range blasters should almost never connect, and neither should charged blasters.
...
The un-intuitive nature of her, (and others "Lucariocough") make me really confused on why people just spam that Melee flavor (N-Air-planes) with everyone coming into the game...
Then I remember that Melee is fun, and that's where most of us came from.
Still though... ZSS players are all weird. I still don't get that part of the community.
Lordling
QD releasing is enough to knock Falco down quite easily, and is quick enough to cover a threatening distance, and lasers aren't just to lock QD down (see my earlier comments on Falco in the last few pages), if anything, they'll be gravitating towards FORCING you to DD Shield them, or attempt a QD through them under his conditions.
Ike is fine against the bird.
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Can't you just let me whine and look for a different character when I really only want to play ike
...
Fine I'll adapt or something *grumbles*
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
Nausicaa, have you played ZSS? DSmash > Kill move isn't free at all considering you have to initially HIT with DSmash. On paper it seems easy and really good, but at higher levels it's a little more difficult to put into effect. 
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Sometimes I wish a dash attack could be cancelled into any smash.
... That would be a terrifying and fascinating game.
... That would be a terrifying and fascinating game.
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
Oro?!
Smash Hero
You can't just "do a dsmash" unless people are stupid to run into it. That's why it's unreliable. There are some gimmick setups that work into DSmash, but anyone with half a brain has long since caught onto them around me.
Characters with fast jump squats or big wavedashes can punish the recovery frames on sideB with good spacing even by ZSS, and fast jump characters can punish oos vs dsmash unless it is spaced well. People have notions that they are way safer moves than they are, especially in low levels of play. The truth is they are situationally safe, and against someone like Sheik, really never safe lol.
UpB is hardly a reliable combo starter, especially at low percents, and a lot of tech situations you honestly don't have enough frames as ZSS to even attempt a dsmash/grab based on a characters weight and %.
DSmash is punishable on whiff. DSmash is sometimes punishable on block. DSmash has hella startup and that makes it a bad neutral game poke when the game is loaded with characters that can SHFFL across half of the stage in an instant. Stop playing super theory bros. I'm playing super reality bros. The stuff you say DOES NOT work vs good players or good characters for that matter.
Blaster is amazing you are crazy. It's really only invalidated against short characters...
Characters with fast jump squats or big wavedashes can punish the recovery frames on sideB with good spacing even by ZSS, and fast jump characters can punish oos vs dsmash unless it is spaced well. People have notions that they are way safer moves than they are, especially in low levels of play. The truth is they are situationally safe, and against someone like Sheik, really never safe lol.
UpB is hardly a reliable combo starter, especially at low percents, and a lot of tech situations you honestly don't have enough frames as ZSS to even attempt a dsmash/grab based on a characters weight and %.
DSmash is punishable on whiff. DSmash is sometimes punishable on block. DSmash has hella startup and that makes it a bad neutral game poke when the game is loaded with characters that can SHFFL across half of the stage in an instant. Stop playing super theory bros. I'm playing super reality bros. The stuff you say DOES NOT work vs good players or good characters for that matter.
Blaster is amazing you are crazy. It's really only invalidated against short characters...
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
I've never hit with a charged blaster but I've gotten plenty off of people trying to work around it.
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Rᴏb
still here, just to suffer
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2012
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- 1,595
Better not use any move ever because everything is conditional/someone has to get hit by it... except Shine, you can use Shine.
Yars, what's good in practice and not on paper, then?
N-Air approaches? I guess you still have to HIT with those though. XD
Oro, Silent Wolf must be terrible then.
"DSmash is punishable on whiff. DSmash is sometimes punishable on block. DSmash has hella startup"
^Can't that be applied to... a LOT of stuff?
"...and that makes it a bad neutral game poke when the game is loaded with characters that can SHFFL across half of the stage in an instant. "
So the answer is N-Airs?
Seriously, I have no idea how you both (I assume you're both working with the character too) gravitate to Blasters, Side-Bs, and SHFFL Aerials, whatever it is that you do, against characters like Fox and Sheik. I wouldn't risk any of that stuff, it's unreliable, punishable, or gimmicky. XD
Yars, what's good in practice and not on paper, then?
N-Air approaches? I guess you still have to HIT with those though. XD
Oro, Silent Wolf must be terrible then.
"DSmash is punishable on whiff. DSmash is sometimes punishable on block. DSmash has hella startup"
^Can't that be applied to... a LOT of stuff?
"...and that makes it a bad neutral game poke when the game is loaded with characters that can SHFFL across half of the stage in an instant. "
So the answer is N-Airs?
Seriously, I have no idea how you both (I assume you're both working with the character too) gravitate to Blasters, Side-Bs, and SHFFL Aerials, whatever it is that you do, against characters like Fox and Sheik. I wouldn't risk any of that stuff, it's unreliable, punishable, or gimmicky. XD
Oro?!
Smash Hero
No I just don't think SW would know timings and ranges of everything for a character that he has never played before and still beat Vidjo, but whatever floats your boat.
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Dsmash for Wolf was godly back when shield pushback wasn't fixed. Wolf in general was stupid then. You could DACUS or just Smash nearly any shield, and they would 90% never get a shield grab.
I would replace Dsmash in neutral, with a tilt of comparable range or with better positioning from Wolf. Dsmash is not an ideal first hit to go for (same with Ftilt/Dtilt arguably). I think flying in with Nair is probably the worst choice, if we're not talking about specific scenarios where it's quite useful. Blaster is probably the safest neutral choice, albeit quite overrated. What's that advice for Smash? Play to not get hit? Wolf's kind of decent at that! Gotta have respect for some of his janky hitbox coverage.
Oro : "Link/TL are basically my most hated matchups. I did not sign up to play a bullet hell, I signed up to play smash bros. Both boomerangs and bombs for either character have the easiest hitconfirms ever, and Link can kill around 100% with bomb->dair, boomerang->dair, or dthrow-> dair. Link's "sweetspot" on his rang that let's you have the easiest hitconfirms ever, is longer than the swing range on fsmash 1, has practically no start up, and no cooldown. No me gusta. TL is more managable, but has the small character syndrome that I hate and greatly reduces neutral game options while still making me play a bullet hell."
You hate Link too? Omg we are truly brothers. Toon Link I don't have hatred of. I can play around his projectiles easier sans AGT
I would replace Dsmash in neutral, with a tilt of comparable range or with better positioning from Wolf. Dsmash is not an ideal first hit to go for (same with Ftilt/Dtilt arguably). I think flying in with Nair is probably the worst choice, if we're not talking about specific scenarios where it's quite useful. Blaster is probably the safest neutral choice, albeit quite overrated. What's that advice for Smash? Play to not get hit? Wolf's kind of decent at that! Gotta have respect for some of his janky hitbox coverage.
Oro : "Link/TL are basically my most hated matchups. I did not sign up to play a bullet hell, I signed up to play smash bros. Both boomerangs and bombs for either character have the easiest hitconfirms ever, and Link can kill around 100% with bomb->dair, boomerang->dair, or dthrow-> dair. Link's "sweetspot" on his rang that let's you have the easiest hitconfirms ever, is longer than the swing range on fsmash 1, has practically no start up, and no cooldown. No me gusta. TL is more managable, but has the small character syndrome that I hate and greatly reduces neutral game options while still making me play a bullet hell."
You hate Link too? Omg we are truly brothers. Toon Link I don't have hatred of. I can play around his projectiles easier sans AGT
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MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
That's a good way to describe DSmash, actually. Blaster's much safer since you can Dash Cancel it. Side B is much safer due to its reach, Aerials are safer since they are quick and you can move with them.
I mean, good luck hitting someone fast like Fox or Sheik with DSmash. Heaven forbid if they actually know what they're doing :shrug:
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
yes, if you give up stage position before doing it you don't get punished, and simultaneously accomplish nothing
conclusion: zss dsmash sucks in neutral
conclusion: zss dsmash sucks in neutral
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