Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

Hey now, I tried to give it some justification! Some people have to deal with spacing and timing concerns in Neutral, not everybody is a Link Boomerang main

 

[batistabus]

This feels like a rap, almost.

"My moves, they combo into fair.
Your moves, the combo's ain't there."

Please finish this.

 

[Nausicaa]

Well now you're (both) just throwing around semantics.
Look, I can do it too.
Blaster isn't safe because it has start-up. Side-B isn't safe because it has lag, Aerials aren't safe because you're committed to a motion.
The point stands, that if you're facing Fox/Sheik/whatever, not using something like D-Smash in the core of your arsenal seems really bizarre to me. It stands out in every way as a key element in opening the touch-of-death small risk for big reward factor that torments fast-fallers.
Re: It has great range for being quick on start-up and cool-down, leading to anything without exception, and can be used while in motion in any place that isn't air-born, while never committing to further motion.

So far, I've yet to have a match-up or reason to draw away from using it as at least top-3 most-used move of hers in any way. Just sayiiiin
Oro, True, even though Vidjo got punished more for N-Airs than anything, and maybe he should have abused this more then, but it could easily be too late now.
We all have stuff to learn.

 

[SixSaw]

I've always thought that a move being "safe" meant that the amount of space it controls is more than an opponent would be able to cover in order to execute a punish during the period before you are able to make another action. Is that incorrect?

From that perspective it seems easy to see why ZSS' dsmash would not be a safe option in neutral vs shiek or fox.

 

[OidBirdie]

ZSS' dsmash doesn't seem too quick on start-up to me. I don't have the frame data to back this up though.

 

[Nausicaa]

Could you list all the moves in the game that people have fitting properly under that criteria against Fox?
+ Is that why everyone still thinks Fox is #1 without exception?


Edit: Maybe this is where everyone is coming from.
- If ZSS is going exclusively DD D-Smash, and Fox is going exclusively DD Grabs, Fox would win that contest.

^Are these the limits that this game has come to? Nothing more?
Like really, go play the game and get a feel for it, it's not as linear black/white cut/dry as you crazies are making it out to be.

 

[\Apples]

Oro, SW does know the ZSS matchup. He knew it before that Gameclucks. Vidjo and I played with Otto many many times prior to the tourney, Vidjo just never went to a tourney until then.

Also, I think it's really funny; all the hate on link from you as a ZSS player because Vidjo is quite the opposite. He loves playing against my Link more than any of my characters (and I play a hellllllla spammy Link intentionally because I find that that playstyle compliments my Wario's bad matchups very well, which is the opposite of my Link's and is very very aggressively patient). I, for one, think the matchup is pretty even.

 

[Empyrean]

He hates the Link matchup yet completely destroys Lazarond, making an amazing comeback from what could have been a 3-0 loss. The struggle was certainly real tho.

 

[Nausicaa]

Apples, Do you hate the ZSS vs Wario match-up from Wario's side too then? Or the ZSS vs Link one, or what?
The match-up is even between ZSS and Link, or Wario and ZSS, or what?
Paragraph is confusing.

Oro/Apples, though I know you're just taking what I initially said, and bringing it into different context, you're far off the important points of what anything was mentioned at all.
- Players playing who/when/where/how is semantics, so I'd prefer that stuff isn't brought here unless it's to demonstrate a particular element in the game. (a style of play/concept/development/etc) Anything to do with the current meta-game developed between simply individuals due to experience with nuances doesn't really have anything else to do with the match-up nuances themselves. Discussing what/why who/where/when won is silly otherwise.

 

[Infil]

Could you list all the moves in the game that people have fitting properly under that criteria against Fox?
+ Is that why everyone still thinks Fox is #1 without exception?


Edit: Maybe this is where everyone is coming from.
- If ZSS is going exclusively DD D-Smash, and Fox is going exclusively DD Grabs, Fox would win that contest.

^Are these the limits that this game has come to? Nothing more?
Like really, go play the game and get a feel for it, it's not as linear black/white cut/dry as you crazies are making it out to be.

This is a silly simplification.

The reality is that slow moves are really risky against fast characters, because by the time you input the move, the character is no longer where you thought they were. Therefore, you either need to have a solid read on the opponent to predict where they'll be (while judging risk/reward), or the move needs to have an amazing hitbox/number of active frames to account for errors in your read.

It's exactly because it's not so black/white cut/dry that using a slow move with a bad hitbox is a bad idea against a fast character in the neutral game. 99% of the time, you won't hit them. 80% of the time, he will hit you instead (and the rest is a wash, probably with you giving up positioning to boot). The other 1% of the time you'll get a bit of damage.

 

[\Apples]

Apples, Do you hate the ZSS vs Wario match-up from Wario's side too then? Or the ZSS vs Link one, or what?
The match-up is even between ZSS and Link, or Wario and ZSS, or what?
Paragraph is confusing.

Oro/Apples, though I know you're just taking what I initially said, and bringing it into different context, you're far off the important points of what anything was mentioned at all.
- Players playing who/when/where/how is semantics, so I'd prefer that stuff isn't brought here unless it's to demonstrate a particular element in the game. (a style of play/concept/development/etc) Anything to do with the current meta-game developed between simply individuals due to experience with nuances doesn't really have anything else to do with the match-up nuances themselves. Discussing what/why who/where/when won is silly otherwise.

Concerning changing topics, sorry, I kinda just check this thread every once in a while. I don't have time to keep up with the discussion. Sorry if I derailed.

I don't hate ZSS v Wario, I actually did very well in the matchup, though it's hard for me to tell because I've only played against Vidjo's ZSS (Not counting Vanz and scrub ZSS players). In 2.6, the armor on Wario's crouch slide was really the only thing that he had on ZSS. Now? I imagine the matchup is beyond frustrating. ZSS outranges Wario and has him beat in the speed AND priority departments. He can DI alriiiight out of her combos, but against someone with amazing reaction time like Vidjo, escaping his combos is really really hard. No matter which way I DI out of MOST of her moves, she can get to you. HOWEVER, doing so requires either hard-reading or ridiculously good reaction time. I think he's good at both and so his combos can be very brutal. I think part of the reason he lost to Otto is that his tech-skill is rusty, and comboing spacies requires speed and precision he couldn't reliably muster. Otto is the furthest thing from rusty, he plays all the time and he still does really well in Melee with a very technical character, so Otto took it because the match became mostly a comparison of technical ability. Tight battles tho for real.

Just going with intuition on these calls because I can't stay long, if you're asking my opinion, ZSS V Link is pretty even, Wario v ZSS is in ZSS' favor now that Wario has been stripped of by far his most useful tool against her. But that's based on my experiences. I grow as a player each time I play (which, regrettably isn't much lately) and perhaps there are other things unbeknownst to me which might change my opinion had I known. But yeah, based on current knowledge, that's what I think.

 

[Nausicaa]

This is a silly simplification.

The reality is that slow moves are really risky against fast characters, because by the time you input the move, the character is no longer where you thought they were. Therefore, you either need to have a solid read on the opponent to predict where they'll be (while judging risk/reward), or the move needs to have an amazing hitbox/number of active frames to account for errors in your read.

It's exactly because it's not so black/white cut/dry that using a slow move with a bad hitbox is a bad idea against a fast character in the neutral game. 99% of the time, you won't hit them. 80% of the time, he will hit you instead (and the rest is a wash, probably with you giving up positioning to boot). The other 1% of the time you'll get a bit of damage.

Highlights are cute.

Well now you're (both) just throwing around semantics.
Look, I can do it too.
Blaster isn't safe because it has start-up. Side-B isn't safe because it has lag, Aerials aren't safe because you're committed to a motion.
The point stands, that if you're facing Fox/Sheik/whatever, not using something like D-Smash in the core of your arsenal seems really bizarre to me. It stands out in every way as a key element in opening the touch-of-death small risk for big reward factor that torments fast-fallers.
Re: It has great range for being quick on start-up and cool-down, leading to anything without exception, and can be used while in motion in any place that isn't air-born, while never committing to further motion.

So far, I've yet to have a match-up or reason to draw away from using it as at least top-3 most-used move of hers in any way. Just sayiiiin

If THESE aren't safe under the exact same analysis of risk and/or safety, then Fox is just ZSS (and everyone else's) bane in this game?
Seriously, you just agreed with the silliness of the simplification, then spelled it out in the same post. (tacking probabilities onto options in a gray-game is a good start in that direction lol)

What does ZSS do then? The good old Blaster/Side-B/Aerial stuff and hope for the best, T-Tilts out of Pivots and Dashes, or a mix of all of that around Up-B and Down-B and D-Smash etc?
This game isn't black/white (YOU said it too), so stop treating it like it is (especially in discussion where it's so easy to see). That goes for Oro/Yars too.

I'm pretty sure (like maybe 57% < lol) that this game isn't about attacking AT the opponent, but ALSO involves them attacking you, you attacking while backing away, you attacking while moving, and them attacking in those other variations as well.
Maybe, standing in place for a few frames with some minor start-up is a decent trade-off for having a hit-box in front of you that gives a free kill if touched and can't quite be Short-Hopped over, which can be activated out of any position or motion among all other options present in the battle from gimmicks to fundamentals, without conditions other than having a [very] short window to be punished if missed and the opponent is in a raw DD and you're baller [get read/make a baller go-deep read].
Just maybe.
Just maybe.

Edit: I don't know how to fix type-size back to normal...
WAT

 

[Infil]

If the reward for touching Fox with dsmash is literally a stock, every single time, then... okay, the risk/reward is worth it more often. I'm no ZSS player but I find it hard to believe this is the case.

Your analyses of why blaster and aerials aren't safe are a little crazy, too. Like... you can move during blaster, and you can land in unpunishable and unpredictable spots using aerials. Dsmash locks you in place and you have much less control over a ton of stuff.

"is Fox the bane of everyone in this game" uh, probably? this isn't really surprising, lol

"What does ZSS do then?" I dunno, I don't play her, so I'll trust Oro who has good tournament results with her when he says Dsmash is tough to use against spacies.

 

[Nausicaa]

I read in another thread, someone said : It seems this game is the closest to being about the player abilities rather than match-up knowledge.
Pretty good way of putting the whole 'not cut/dry' thing. Anything goes, this is Smash! :D

Your analyses of why blaster and aerials aren't safe are a little crazy, too. Like... you can move during blaster, and you can land in unpunishable and unpredictable spots using aerials. Dsmash locks you in place and you have much less control over a ton of stuff.

"is Fox the bane of everyone in this game" uh, probably? this isn't really surprising, lol

"What does ZSS do then?" I dunno, I don't play her, so I'll trust Oro who has good tournament results with her when he says Dsmash is tough to use against spacies.

The Blaster and Aerial stuff was a joke at how silly the simplification was.
Others did it earlier, so I made those jokes to show how silly it is (hence I re-posted to show how silly it is for you to see)
There are conditions to everything in the game, but to be bias either for or against them is dangerous to the development of play. I may be bias towards D-Smash, but even the basic logic and back-bone of the arguments from Yars and Oro as to why it's 'Not good in Neutral' are literally 100% backwards (as in, the arguments to why 'other' things should be is also a bonus for this option, and the arguments against this option apply to the 'others' just as much). I'm just trying to figure out why, when I've really yet to see anyone else even try (except kind of Vidjo) incorporating it to any decent extent.

To each their own, I'm just sharing my take on what appears to work. No mean to be 'mean' or anything, to Oro and others I've observed in PMs time, but I really don't trust the direct insight second-hand from people who naturally come flying out the door with doing the same things on repeat with every piece of content, then shun other things along the way. Oro is cool, but if he hates Roy's D-Tilt and spams N-Air all day with him, and can't be reasoned in simple discussion as to why he might favor one or the other/have a change of mind, I'm not exactly like-minded.
Hence we have discussions, and Oro is awesome to discuss with. <3

I guess as Burnsy said, I don't exactly "make 'Tier Lists' based on the lists of others with slight alterations I don't agree with, like everybody else"
The same can be applied to the way I see Smash, too. :/
Makes for more interesting discussion.

Use D-Smash with ZSS more. XD

Edit: Spelling
+ I'm pretty sure everybody already knows all this stuff, and because it's so 'gray' in itself, is why everyone sees the game so differently, even at the fundamental nuance-level. :D

 

[Oro?!]

http://www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/501145875 ZSS Starts at 19:45

http://www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/501148097

Enjoy. Practice > Theory.

Apparently there were a lot of dropped frames, oh well. You can get the gist from me bodying Kels.

 

[ELI-mination]

That ZSS is pretty ****ing amazing Oro

 

[Nausicaa]

Cool, glad you're doing well. Kels looked hilarious, and you're actually playing the character with quite some depth now. I like it.
Good to see, thanks for the fill-in request, though I was hoping for more than a single match. What's 'actually' going on with the mainstream ZSS meta-game these days? Or are you basically it?

PS: D-Smash more. Even in just from this single more to-date match, I'm again reinforced under the impression the greater community still lacks the application of this move as much as they would benefit from. Vidjo maybe stepping in up these days as Apples said? It'll be interesting to see if he's actually gone the direction he appeared to be, and how that's working out.
Needs more D-Smash.

Edit: I'll comment as a compliment too, it was much better than expected given the last couple time-lapses of things I've seen from you. Either you've developed as a player, or developed your ability to develop as a player and it's coming through. I like that, and your play is looking a lot more conscious and aware, Keep going.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Uh, I'm preeeeetty sure if it was Oro playing ZSS and there was something that would greatly improve his game, he'd be doing it.

Like, on the real, I'm no pro either, I'm not some fanboy. Oro is clearly a good player, and while this isn't basis for the entirety of an arguement, do you have footage of your own ZSS? I also realize not everyone has means of recording or going to tournaments or things like that, but when I see something like "Needs more D-Smash" I can only think of someone that plays against his friends in an amateur way, a sort of "I'm the best on my block in Smash"

Theory is good, but it does really help to see your points in practice.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Nausicaa is the resident professional theorycrafter don't expect footage anytime soon

He's relatively good at his job, though

 

[Nguz95]

The guy knows his stuff.

 

[Nausicaa]

The Vidjo vid I posted demonstrates it enough, and even in the vid Oro posted showed D-Smash lead to some stuff, miss other times, and not be punished throughout the match. Sure, there are lots of variables as to why, but those are pretty good demonstrations of what I'm advocating already.
Given the current Oro and the Oro last January are playing the character completely differently, and today's Oro is playing the character almost word-for-word how I spelled in out 1 year ago in the ZSS threads, I'm pretty sure I don't need to spam credentials and semantics to make a point sensible.

To each their own, and for each of us to share. I shared something as a suggestion, so far the others seem to be working out, but the line can be drawn to cut direction from 'basically randoms' at some point.

Edit: tl;dr: Footage will be brought when footage needs to be brought.
SO!
If you can 'theorize' a reason for it to be brought, that will benefit people in more ways than not, regarding the sense and content of posts on a forum that perhaps are too difficult to explain in linguistics alone, without it possibly influencing people to an extent that they'll start taking it for the words of someone in particular rather than for what they are... then sure. Though to-date, I'm not confident in my fellow Smash community forum-goers that they won't be influenced by trivial things, and therefore I'm safely going to assume they won't get the raw content of what the message is MEANT to be, but rather what they 'want' it to be, if there was a reputation beyond 'posts to be read that might be of value' behind it.

As I just said in the "Social" forum, my message is already once removed from what I'm truly trying to express, the last thing I need is irrelevant sources in the mundane world altering the interpretation further. XD

 

[Oro?!]

January was also the 1st month 2.5 and ZSS for that matter had been released... That's quite a hefty expectation for a month for meta.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Given the current Oro and the Oro last January are playing the character completely differently, and today's Oro is playing the character almost word-for-word how I spelled in out 1 year ago in the ZSS threads

This strikes me as odd, because from what I'm gathering Oro isn't really agreeing with what you're saying now. The edit has a bunch of fluff that doesn't even need to be in there, and to be honest comes of as a little arrogant.

My point is it's easier to illustrate a point involving movement or neutral game or how much you should use in a match-up by showing its use in practice. It's easier for people that don't have as firm a grasp on a character (For example, I'm sure plenty of people don't even know the relative size of DSmash's hitbox) to follow discussion. Project M is still young, for you to definitely say something like "D-Smash more" is silly, considering that even if it may be true, that that is all you need to do NOW, what's to say other characters haven't been developed in Project M's lifetime to easily deal with D-Smash and won't at some point?

 

[Nausicaa]

Oro: I'm gonna take your comment another, more interesting direction, as I think it's of more value given we have context together than can be observed and used to present a greater point.
It's not a hefty expectation, and the only reason you think it is, is because you think it is.
Not to be philosophical or whatever, but the buttons and moves, etc, were there then as much as they are now.
A really good and easy direct example of this would be with the Roy comment, if you remember that, earlier in Dec I think, it might have even been pre-release.
I commented on how you were having trouble getting kills, despite getting a very early one in the very first match with a simple Side-B, one that you could have done in many situations in all other matches too, but weren't exploring it at all after the very observable thing, and the opponent (someone playing Mewtwo) was living post-180% regularly during these matches. The same happened with Neutral B. This has NOTHING to do with meta-game, etc, this has to do with development, developing on-the-fly through the experience.
The same happened with the Neutral game, as I commented on the excessive N-Airs, many getting punished at that, and lack of D-Tilt, as if you just felt limited in options, and mentioned to explore it more. You were very adamant against these comments and shunned the idea of it, almost laughing at how I was saying to stop doing "One of the best moves" as much (some wording like that). Even Sethlon came into the topic and thought you were being silly with that reaction to the idea.

This has NOTHING to do with your last comment in relation to how (we all are included in this) getting better, but rather how DURING this 'getting better' we can also develop our ability to get a LOT better a LOT faster. It's not a hefty task, it's one step at a time, and we're already taking them, the difference I'm proposing here is to actually make an effort to bring this into a conscious place, to work towards making this a natural state of our being while playing Smash.
It's easy.
The way everyone in these communities thinks it's hard and never expects anything to be natural, is the reason it's hard.
See: The post I made in the public social thread about the nature of art and expression.
Same deal. It's universal.

Hope that helps, it was all simply meant to be context to demonstrate the point (you can learn SO MUCH right NOW, without any time or conditions) that you're more capable than you're saying you (and this goes for everyone) are.

Uh, I'm preeeeetty sure if it was Oro playing ZSS and there was something that would greatly improve his game, he'd be doing it.
Theory is good, but it does really help to see your points in practice.

One day you will, and I won't even have to do them.
You already have seen them in practice, all you have to do is read 2013's catalog of rants, and watch a video of someone today.

Edit: ^For your last comment.
D-Smash is just a step, there were many before and many after. Just because someone doesn't 'agree' with me now, doesn't mean they won't later. Just because someone didn't 'agree' with me then, doesn't mean they don't now.
Why cover what's been taken care of, anyway?
D-Smash, it lacks. That's still the final word from me, because it's the next word from me. XD
This isn't really about Oro (or 'just' Oro I guess?), or even just about ZSS.
This is simply sharing insight, and I figure it's worth sharing given the effectiveness I've observed of such things (from the actions to the developments to the insights to the meta-games) we've collectively passed through. Tiz all.

 

[Ripple]

Hey oro?!, the faster you get, the slower I'm going to play against you.

 

[Hylian]

I think ZSS is one of Links worst match-ups >_>.

 

[MagnesD3]

I love the king <3
















































but plz buff waddle dee toss :S

 

[NightShadow6]

Anyone know what match ups Meta Knight would have a tough time against?

 

[Kaeldiar]

Are you saying you think GnW actually belongs in the bottom 5?

I think he might be. He'll probably end up in my bottom 10 unless a REALLY good GnW player comes up and finishes well at a tourney. Part of the problem is the lack of GnW players. Fewer people being committed to a character makes it tough for his metagame to develop, and tough for his potential to come out. He's not bottom of the barrel, but he gets punished hard by someone who knows the matchup, so I can't see him being above mid tier.

 

[Oro?!]

I think ZSS is one of Links worst match-ups >_>.

Throw more boomerang. Become the boomerang.

 

[Lazarond]

zss confirmed bully to link

 

[ELI-mination]

I don't see the buzz about 90% of boomerangs

 

[OidBirdie]

I think ZSS is one of Links worst match-ups >_>.

Link must have a DAMN good match-up spread then

 

[Kink-Link5]

ZSS is my general go-to choice if the match goes to FD.

I don't even particularly think she does well on it or in any character matchup as a counterpick; I just really don't want to deal with that stage as Charizard.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I've never seen anyone AGT a gyro that is thrown to them. Can you actually do this, or is ROB's gyro weird?

 

[Ripple]

as soon as I see the ZSS, my hand goes to the shield, all becoming slow

 

[Rᴏb]

I think he might be. He'll probably end up in my bottom 10 unless a REALLY good GnW player comes up and finishes well at a tourney. Part of the problem is the lack of GnW players. Fewer people being committed to a character makes it tough for his metagame to develop, and tough for his potential to come out. He's not bottom of the barrel, but he gets punished hard by someone who knows the matchup, so I can't see him being above mid tier.

Hmm, alright I understand where you are coming from. I still stand by my original placement of GnW, but the lack of people playing the character certainly makes placing him that much harder and up for debate.

 

[Hylian]

I've never seen anyone AGT a gyro that is thrown to them. Can you actually do this, or is ROB's gyro weird?

You can do this, I did it to JCz when I played him first time I tried.

 

[Oro?!]

Is ZSS top tier yet guys? PMSTwin

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Apparently.