Since you're too lazy to read, here's a copy-paste of the chunk of the BIG post I was referring to.
"Ike, is an example of someone who 'could' fit here, but he can at least force 'actions' from opponents. The others (ROB/G&W/Ganon/Bowser/Char/Zelda) can to a degree, but none as 'universally' as Ike in terms of functioning. Plenty of ranged disjoint, a distance mix-up for offense/imposing threat, this stuff gives him at least the possibility of 'actually' being able to win without straight-up out-playing opponents (against his 'weaker' match-up conditions that is) raw matches. The same applies to others to a lesser extent, or maybe with simply some conditions applying to them. DK and Lucario fit under each category."
This, means Bowser will simply not be able to win from his 'weak' match-up conditions as functionally unless it involves at least some degree of out-playing opponents. Ike, while having less/more/just as many 'weak' match-up conditions (doesn't matter what), he'll be able to function better without the necessity of out-playing opponents.
DEDEDE IS NOT IN THE GAME
THERE IS ONLY KINGVAN DOODOODOOZE
Really though, he could fit under the same breath as the C criteria (mentioned above after the Ike comment) but can manipulate his conditions enough to fall somewhere between Ike and Ganon in that sense. So naturally, he'll be somewhat polarizing, and can handle himself well, but will suffer massive hurdles throughout a tournament if going alone. He can break stuff, but can also be broken.
He can avoid getting it while getting hits on others (<Smash), to such an extent that he won't win a tournament (C Tier) by himself due to not being able to 'avoid' those conditions, unless he can find a way to function enough in those conditions to get a few 'breaks', which he can do very well outside of very negative conditions.
tldr = He has enough to manipulate conditions in a non-active state that he won't be deficient there to the extent of others in C Tier, but this same dynamic works the same against him given others are free to manipulate conditions against him better than others in C Tier too. Polarizing, but that's his flavor of it.
He'd be in the Char/Jiggs/ROB/G&W category, likely below ROB, Char could easily be top of that Tier too, so give or take 5 and Dedede is around there.
Kind of obvious though, given his observable nature in plain sight. Trust me in that, the depth of him isn't much different than what it looks like. He only has like... a few kinds of hammer swings, a couple different kinds of grabs, and... jumps?
DAT CROUCH
ICs are like Roy/Samus, I just ain't going there yet.
2 Hammers is BROKEN
Edit:
Cassio: I'm referring to the ol' "good players playing their Melee parts losing means the character is worse than Melee" being backwards as arguments between you + others and this topic vs the Pika discussions.
The point stands, but of course it wasn't the whole argument, won't get into that.
DMG: Jesus... Luigi... Christ on Earth... it all makes sense now!!!
Bowser is fine as he is, no overhaul or major tweaks needed. The armor is fine, and an avoid > grab game is pretty standard in Smash, so really he doesn't break things away from fundamentals the way anyone from ICs to Zelda to even Yoshi, Jiggs, or Falcon do with their oddities in play-methods.
Bowser has a DD game that people need to deal with as much as he has to deal with the DD game of others.
The Dash Grab and Dash Attack are sweet.
Jab is the best though.
Reflex: Melee Ganon hit the same thing in the early years. It's a good testament to how these conditions (meta-game wavering and ignorance at any depth) are still with us today, even with so many 'game-related' examples even around Smash directly.
PM needs time, and lots of it. Or just people to stop being all weird and just accept my Tier List as the official and leave it all alone.
Edit: I collapse it into smallness.
Edit: Cassio, mentioning Axe/Anther and basing arguments off their performance in context/relation to a 'goodness' discussion around a character is directly comparing, and directly analogous to the backwards-nature of the comments on Sheik/Falco/etc.
I'm not searching for the quotes, they're yours after all. XD
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