Tier List Speculation

[Kirks#1Fan]

I'm not sure if that's a 5th troll account or if that's for real

I'm not sure how you think I am a troll at all. I simply created an account when I heard that my Bowser idol stopped playing because the PMBR nerfed his character. I know that the changes to Ike/Lucario/Ivy/Sonic weren't reactionary. Sonic was planned to be nerfed long before Wizzy did anything remotely good, and the character is still ridiculous in 3.0. Ike/Lucario are in a pretty good place after their nerfs and rebalance. Ivysaur is still basically top tier, and it goes to show how stupid that character was made in 2.6.

The reason I'm so upset, is that there was ONE player performing at all with Bowser in 2.6. Gimpy was the only other notable Bowser and he hardly touches the character. I highly doubt Bowser was nerfed without Kirk in mind in at least some regard. The things that were nerfed were basically targetted towards how Kirk played, and now Bowser feels like a shell of a character. He feels like Melee with some armor tacked on. That is NOT good enough to compete with Melee tops. Now the PMBR is going to probably throw some gimmick onto Bowser and hope that everything turns out alright. 2.6 Bowser was considered a mid-high tiered character by many from what I understand, and yet he gets the axe. He lost matchups to a majority of good characters, and PMBR pulls the plug. I just don't understand the reasoning.

#freeKirk #revertBowser

 

[tripwire]

#Bowserwasdumbandgotwhatheneeded

 

[Kink-Link5]

Bowser was never overly or even really good and now is even worse. It's like Ike all over again.

 

[Oro?!]

Ike has never been bad.

 

[JKJ]

I think Lucario has a sh**-ton of untapped potential. Does anyone else think he could be top tier in the right hands?

He destroys fatties and fastfallers, and has a stupidly great dodge/ projectile (uncharged aura sphere makes no sense to me) and has a pretty damn good recovery.

I'd like to hear from others why I'm wrong/right because I don't really know. I still beat him, but I see this ridiculous potential in him.

 

[Hylian]

Lucario may have an untapped punish game, but that doesn't help his lacking neutral game.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Why are people thinking that Ike is bad all of a sudden that man will go Kentaro Miura Guts on your ass.
And if Kirk really has stopped going to Tournaments because of the Bowser changes I am not actually surprised I dropped him like a sac of potatoes when 3.0 came out.

 

[JKJ]

Lucario may have an untapped punish game, but that doesn't help his lacking neutral game.

But I still think that if his punish game evolved to a near deathtouch level (which it will) he would become one of the best characters in the game.

You don't need to have a great neutral game if you only have to win it 4 times a match.

 

[Ripple]

That's what people said about DK in melee. if he has a punch he can essentially kill anyone after 2 wins in the neutral game.

you need a good neutral game

 

[Wolf_]

With Bowser I feel like all that armor is just a gimmick, honestly I feel like he only needs it on his side-smash and dash attack, I don't think it's necessary at all for moves like N-air or U-smash or even Side-B considering it's a grab, Ganon's is a grab too but it doesn't have armor, why not just take the unnecessary armor away and just make the moves better? The armor is just gimmicky

 

[The_NZA]

With Bowser I feel like all that armor is just a gimmick, honestly I feel like he only needs it on his side-smash and dash attack, I don't think it's necessary at all for moves like N-air or U-smash or even Side-B considering it's a grab, Ganon's is a grab too but it doesn't have armor, why not just take the unnecessary armor away and just make the moves better? The armor is just gimmicky

Why do you feel armor is gimmicky?

EDIT: or any more/less gimmicky than intangibility.

 

[deadjames]

Why are people thinking that Ike is bad all of a sudden that man will go Kentaro Miura Guts on your ***.
And if Kirk really has stopped going to Tournaments because of the Bowser changes I am not actually surprised I dropped him like a sac of potatoes when 3.0 came out.

Some of the 3.0 changes were good though. The only things I disagree with are the fortress hog change and the later IASA on bair, I'm indifferent about the decreased range on Koopa Claw and everything else was a change for the better imo. The changes to his fire breath buffed his extremely poor neutral game, the decreased knockback on nair helped his combo game, and the new sweet-spot on fair actually rewards correct spacing which is something that was already especially important for Bowser so as not to get punished.

 

[NWRL]

Why are people thinking that Ike is bad all of a sudden that man will go Kentaro Miura Guts on your ***.
And if Kirk really has stopped going to Tournaments because of the Bowser changes I am not actually surprised I dropped him like a sac of potatoes when 3.0 came out.

Kid friendly Guts is best Guts. I'm glad someone else notices the resemblence

 

[NWRL]

Wolf does extraordinarily against Fox, at least in being able to punish nair planing and ignore lasers. Wolf's shine can almost always lead to death or near it with Fox's weight class.

What do you think the matchup is for Wolf vs Falco/Fox.

I've always felt like Wolf has the advantage because of his absolutely brutal aerial game, but others disagree with me.

 

[Kink-Link5]

What do you think the matchup is for Wolf vs Falco/Fox.

I've always felt like Wolf has the advantage because of his absolutely brutal aerial game, but others disagree with me.

I can't say for sure, but his punish game being so brutal means Fox has to all the more play without making mistakes. It is probably still in Fox's favor at the highest level, but anything lower it gets easier and easier for Wolf.

Why do you feel armor is gimmicky?

EDIT: or any more/less gimmicky than intangibility.

I don't think gimmicky is the right word, but intangibility on any character's nair or dash attack would be kind of silly.

Armor is there to give priority and tradability to a character, just as range or movespeed are. Depending on when that armor starts, the attack, in a sense, "lands" that much faster, in terms of challenging other moves. If the armor is only there alongside the hitbox, it just gives the move priority without granting any artificial speed.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Warning: Don't judge my observations, I'm a scrub

So I've noticed that the neutral game is probably the most important and the most scrutinized part of battle. And everyone seems to be deciding how good a character is by how linear their approaches are and how good their neutral game is.

So I ask this:

• What are the conditions which make a character have a good neutral game
• Why don't we determine and order which characters have the best neutral games and/or approach game so that it will more easily help us determine which characters are the best and worst?
• And as an improving player, I noticed that I am lacking in my experience in the neutral game. My constant habit is to stand in shield when I'm scared of by dash dances and shield pressure. How does one improve in the neutral game? Any exercises etc that I should do/practice?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So I've noticed that the neutral game is probably the most important and the most scrutinized part of battle. And everyone seems to be deciding how good a character is by how linear their approaches are and how good their neutral game is.

So I ask this:

• What are the conditions which make a character have a good neutral game
• Why don't we determine and order which characters have the best neutral games and/or approach game so that it will more easily help us determine which characters are the best and worst?
• And as an improving player, I noticed that I am lacking in my experience in the neutral game. My constant habit is to stand in shield when I'm scared of by dash dances and shield pressure. How does one improve in the neutral game? Any exercises etc that I should do/practice?

A majority is made up of speed, flexibility, and the general power of your options out of the speed/flexibility that dashdancing and otherwise smart movement (such as wavedashing) generally affords you. For better or worse, this is a game that is dominated by those factors. This is because an overwhelming majority of interactions between players is directly affected by what happens in the neutral position.

Take something like Sheik vs. Bowser. Bowser is a character that can really do damage when he's hitting his opponents, but he really has to commit to his neutral options in order to make that happen in the first place. His dashdance -> jump-canceled grab/Dash Attack/etc. really leave him open on a whiff compared to Sheik. Sheik has a much more flexible projectile that is significantly harder to avoid, and her superior speed and mobility allow her to bait Bowser and catch him off guard much more easily than the other way around. As such, Sheik doesn't have to commit to much of anything in order to make things happen. The onus is on Bowser to get things started, and his troubles mean that he has to completely read Sheik's mind (sometimes more than once) in order to touch her at all, while Sheik can just capitalize on that fact and do as she pleases. When he has to be two steps ahead of your opponent to be able to do anything to her, it's not a good look. :/

In terms of quantifying the overall neutral game usefulness/potential, there will still be some significant disagreement here and there. For example, I think that aerial glide toss is noticeably more useful for it than people give it credit for in terms of the neutral position, while others don't think so.

As far as improving your general neutral game, I would suggest trying to make more use of your mobility options as a whole. It's certainly easier said than done, but, reliable wavedashing out of shield and leaning more heavily on dashdancing in a position where you'd generally be shielding should eventually show you the most appropriate times to apply all of that, shield and all. It's worth being off your game while experimenting (as you'll have to get out of your comfort zone, naturally) to really get a feel for the most important aspect of competitive gameplay.

 

[Bleck]

What is the neutral position/game, exactly?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What is the neutral position/game, exactly?

The stuff that happens when both characters are on the ground and have basically all their options available to them. They're not yet being molested by the other, so the neutral game is comprised of all the baiting and harassing that eventually turns into successful attacks, grabs, etc.

It's "neutral" compared to other stuff because you have the greatest number of options at your disposal. When you're recovering, you have to get back to the stage; when you're high in the air, you're missing out on a bunch of movement options and ground attacks. When you're both on the ground and not being hit/grabbed/what have you, you can do whatever your character is capable of without constraints like what's in the previous sentence preventing you.

 

[Kaeldiar]

What is the neutral position/game, exactly?

Good question! To my understanding, the neutral game is when neither player has a clear advantage based on their current position. The core of it lies in the ability to get yourself INTO a good position. Baiting your foe into making a mistake, good approaches, dealing damage with projectiles, etc. When someone is off the stage, that is not neutral game. When someone is juggling their foe like an acrobat, that is not neutral game. When someone is chain-grabbing, that is not neutral game.

Someone feel free to revise these statements for a bit more accuracy. I couldn't find an "official" definition.

 

[Infil]

The neutral game stage of the game when a character isn't being pressured, forced to shield, or knocked down. Generally, the characters are 3-8 character widths apart, and each character is attempting to get into a range where their attacks are most effective. Movement and spacing are critical to make sure that you get the first hit while your opponent doesn't.

EDIT - Cool, 3 replies in under a minute, and I'm the last one! Guess I'll change this to a more effective question; for someone who didn't play Brawl at all, how do you aerial glide toss? I know that if you wavedash over a waddle-dee with Dedede, you'll glide toss him. Does this work for any item (Diddy bananas? actual in-game items?) Do you just... air dodge left/right and press A when over an item to do it in the air? Are there other ways to glide toss in PM?

 

[Kaeldiar]

for someone who didn't play Brawl at all, how do you aerial glide toss? I know that if you wavedash over a waddle-dee with Dedede, you'll glide toss him. Does this work for any item (Diddy bananas? actual in-game items?) Do you just... air dodge left/right and press A when over an item to do it in the air? Are there other ways to glide toss in PM?

AGT works by canceling your air dodge with an item throw (WHAT????). Yeah, so in Brawl you can air dodge, right? Well in Melee and P:M, you can air dodge in a certain direction, just push the control stick the way you want to go at the same time you dodge. Shortly thereafter, IF you have an item in your hand, you can throw it. Boom! Aerial glide toss! What happens? Well, you threw the item, you got the directional boost from the air dodge, AND you are no longer helpless. You are free to use whatever move you want (except another air dodge).

This works for ANY character holding ANY item. The reason it works the way it does for DDD is actually pretty neat. If you air dodge, you can catch an item, right? Well, if you wavedash, you're air dodging! That means if you wavedash, you will actually pick up an item that you pass over (say WHAT?????)! DDD automatically throws his minions if he picks them up (as in, you can't hold them for any length of time), so that's why he instantly throws it.

AGT isn't about grabbing the item, it's about throwing it, just as the name implies. Link uses it effectively for his bomb recovery, if you want to try it out for practical matters.

 

[DrinkingFood]

You are free to use whatever move you want (except another air dodge).

Actually you can still airdodge afterwards.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

In terms of quantifying the overall neutral game usefulness/potential, there will still be some significant disagreement here and there. For example, I think that aerial glide toss is noticeably more useful for it than people give it credit for in terms of the neutral position, while others don't think.

Yes, but since the neutral game is the most important part of the game and more importantly, many judgements are made for the tier list based on how good a character's neutral game is and how well it can approach/how often it is forced to approach, wouldn't it be easier to first rate character's neutral games and then go on from their to make a more accurate tier list. There will probably be less discrepancies for rating neutral games then rating characters, and it is easier to establish common ground. Just a thought.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Actually you can still airdodge afterwards.

Pretty sure I tried and it didn't work...I could be wrong though. I haven't been able to play since mid-Jan, and won't be able to for a while, so if someone could check and find out for sure, that'd be awesome

 

[Infil]

So can Diddy glide toss his bananas on the ground in PM? It works for DDD as you say because he just auto-throws it the instant he touches it (in the brief moment you're in the air during a wavedash), but Diddy would have to pick up the item AND throw it before he landed on the ground during a wavedash? Maybe if he's already holding a banana, he can do it by wavedash + A at the same time (I would guess), but picking up a banana and glide tossing it at the same time seems unfeasible?

 

[DrinkingFood]

So can Diddy glide toss his bananas on the ground in PM? It works for DDD as you say because he just auto-throws it the instant he touches it (in the brief moment you're in the air during a wavedash), but Diddy would have to pick up the item AND throw it before he landed on the ground during a wavedash? Maybe if he's already holding a banana, he can do it by wavedash + A at the same time (I would guess), but picking up a banana and glide tossing it at the same time seems unfeasible?

Glide tossing on the ground works just as in brawl. Dodge rolls cancel on the first few frames into an item throw, retaining momentum while throwing the item. You could do something similar with aerial glide tossing into the ground, kinda like wavedashing while the animation cancels into a throw, but it'd be slower and move less distance.

 

[gnosis]

Pretty sure I tried and it didn't work...I could be wrong though. I haven't been able to play since mid-Jan, and won't be able to for a while, so if someone could check and find out for sure, that'd be awesome

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C8FT6e78xw

Unless pulling out a bomb refreshes your airdodge somehow...

 

[B.W.]

Its not the bomb pull. You can literally just do any action after AGT. If you still have a double jump you can even still do that but that's difficult if you have tap jump on.

 

[gnosis]

That was the point of the video lol. My comment was facetious (although PMBR sometimes does some odd things that you might not expect from a pure Melee perspective, like not being able to airdodge even though you're not in free fall).

 

[DrinkingFood]

That was the point of the video lol. My comment was facetious (although PMBR sometimes does some odd things that you might not expect from a pure Melee perspective, like not being able to airdodge even though you're not in free fall).

Or arbitrarily limiting things like the number of walljump cancels or tether edge grabs when the issue can be resolved a different way

 

[TreK]

AGT isn't about grabbing the item, it's about throwing it, just as the name implies

True, but it should be noted that you can catch the item with your airdodge, and toss it in that same airdodge, which will make you AGT the item you weren't previously holding. In Brawl it's called instant tossing, but since the airdodge is directionnal in P:M, you do get the glide, and I think it qualifies as an AGT variation too.

A wavedash to catch an item into an AGT is probably the best answer against an item toss right now. Seriously, items suck in P:M.

 

[MattNF]

Has fly amanita proved us wrong about DDD? Is he actually a viable character, or is Fly just that good?

 

[Strong Badam]

The list of "unviable" characters in this game is somewhere between 0 and 2. DDD is not one of them.

 

[the_irish_dude]

#dontnerfZelda

^thats all i got to say about rumors

 

[MagnesD3]

The list of "unviable" characters in this game is somewhere between 0 and 2. DDD is not one of them.

I still think you guys should improve his waddle dee toss recovery :/

 

[MattNF]

I still think you guys should improve his waddle dee toss recovery :/

The waddle toss needs to be consistent, so you don't randomly get screwed by a gordo. Maybe make gordo appear every 6 throws or something.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yes, but since the neutral game is the most important part of the game and more importantly, many judgements are made for the tier list based on how good a character's neutral game is and how well it can approach/how often it is forced to approach, wouldn't it be easier to first rate character's neutral games and then go on from their to make a more accurate tier list. There will probably be less discrepancies for rating neutral games then rating characters, and it is easier to establish common ground. Just a thought.

I'd say so, but there are people who say that dashdance camping isn't so powerful, that the sheer strength of some characters overrides their inability to bait effectively, etc.

That said, yeah, I think it would be a fine way to get a really smooth tier list.

The list of "unviable" characters in this game is somewhere between 0 and 2. DDD is not one of them.

Maybe right now, when everyone is bad. I'd say the number is significantly higher when everyone has experience with all these characters instead of having huge holes in matchup experience (pretty much everyone has this issue, myself included).

In a grown-up metagame, Dedede is totally unviable in a tournament setting, I feel. With issues in matchup experience as well as people not establishing pocket characters to just shut down certain matchups (let's be real--most everyone just picks the characters they like, period), anybody can win, but when the general public "figures it out," it'll show that this game is not so balanced that only two or fewer characters have virtually unwinnable matchups.

 

[Oro?!]

Neutral game is not the only factor towards tier placement. If it was, then 2.6 Sonic would've been the best character in the game still, or close to it... Nuetral game is a lot more than dashing right or left, because frankly not every character can operate on that level. Sure, having the ability to wavedash or dash dance when you are a slower character is a massive factor in neutral, but their neutral game is not controlled by it. There are characters who take control of space and threaten ranges from the air like Jiggs or Wario very effectively. They are also characters who set up walls of projectiles and will not take a step towards you unless they have to like maybe Link/ROB/TL/Zelda.

I don't like the notion that neutral game is all running left right left in the eyes of some people because that downplays a lot of the beautiful decision making that happens. Smash's neutral game/footsies are why it's so good, alongside DI and control basically never leaving the player even when getting death combo'd.

 

[MagnesD3]

The waddle toss needs to be consistent, so you don't randomly get screwed by a gordo. Maybe make gordo appear every 6 throws or something.

That would be fair, I just want to use waddle dee to zone and control some space a little that way it isnt insanely free for my opponent to get in and pressure me...