Tier List Speculation

[The_Altrox]

They already did rebuild Wolf though, in fact he's probably one of the most well-designed characters in PM.

No doubt. But that's not really the point I was trying to make.

No, seriously, how would you integrate the kick shine into a spacies' moveset in a way that makes it superior to their current one?

I don't know. I'm not the one building this game. But I will say this this. I get that they wanted to build Fox and Falco like they were in Melee and I accept that. But when they were building Wolf, I feel that they could have taken something like the reflector kick and given it a boost to give Wolf a boost as well. The move already reflects at a distance and trips. But they could have done more. Maybe it drags the opponent in for a combo (like ZSS's whip does). Maybe it can be used as a shine in the air in that format (which could be OP or awkward. idk)

I'm not hating on Wolf's build I think it's great. I'm just saying that completely throwing out the kick reflector seems like such a waste of potential.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Wolf's currently reflector is very central to his moveset. Giving him the kickshine would require a completely different design philosophy because as it is right now, it would make him a much worse character.

Besides, if the only argument that can be mustered is "But it looks so cool!" ...

 

[The_Altrox]

Well, obviously, I don't expect them to do it now. I'm saying that it's something that could have been done and worked with early on when they were recreating him.

 

[MagnesD3]

This statement is unbelievably disingenuous.

"catored to"
"Melee purists"

The wording here is specifically made to talk down to his design, as if the pmbr are shills that made choices because Shizwiz gave them twenty bucks under the table.

I probably should have worded it better, the point I was trying to make is I wish pm falco was a combo of the best parts of melee falco and brawl falco (I feel the same for all the characters relatively unchanged from melee) I just don't like the fact it "seems" that the melee counterparts of characters out prioritize their brawl counterparts when it comes to their pm designs. Don't mean to come across as a hater or something.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I just don't like the fact it "seems" that the melee counterparts of characters out prioritize their brawl counterparts when it comes to their pm designs.

P:M is about good design within the context of its engine.

Guess which game has better design within the context of P:M's engine.

 

[Strong Badam]

Is it, though? In what prevalent situations does size play a major factor in fighting others, both in terms of good and bad characters?

It's not nearly as big a deal as it is in Brawl, I'd say. Shortness is a nice attribute to have, but I don't think it affects the neutral game all that much overall in PM.

it's... kind of a big deal luis. people being able to attack or shoot projectiles poorly and still hit you is really obnoxious

 

[Ripple]

being tall and fat is a huge factor against mario's fireballs and ness PK fire

 

[Doser]

it's... kind of a big deal luis. people being able to attack or shoot projectiles poorly and still hit you is really obnoxious

How are they attacking/shooting poorly if they are still hitting you?

 

[MagnesD3]

P:M is about good design within the context of its engine.

Guess which game has better design within the context of P:M's engine.

This statement is completely argue able on a move to move basis....

 

[pkblaze]

This statement is completely argue able on a move to move basis....

OK. Pick, out of the melee + brawl vets, a character who has a particular melee move that would be better as a brawl move. If that replacement would be a buff, it's probably because that character didn't need a buff. If it's worse off, it could be because the character needed a nerf.

 

[Cassio]

Pikachu clearly needed more nerfs

 

[Strong Badam]

How are they attacking/shooting poorly if they are still hitting you?

because against other characters they wouldn't have hit you

 

[MagnesD3]

OK. Pick, out of the melee + brawl vets, a character who has a particular melee move that would be better as a brawl move. If that replacement would be a buff, it's probably because that character didn't need a buff. If it's worse off, it could be because the character needed a nerf.

Falco Brawls Fair is a nerf, F smash is buff, jab is a buff, u tilt is a nerf, down b throwing out sheild with the b is held is a buff. So basically a newer character with a combination of nerfs and buffs instead of a copy paste with very minor tweaks like most of the melee cast.

 

[Kink-Link5]

No way in hell is Brawl Falco f-smash a buff.

Also shine throwing by holding the button definitely makes jump out of shine much more difficult since that input is partially reliant on holding b to reach the jump window.

 

[Strong Badam]

You don't need to hold B to get to the window. It happens regardless. You have like 17 frames where you can jump even if you don't hold B at all. Either way, a hold vs tap input for Brawl/Melee down-b doesn't work because Melee's needs to hit frame 1.

 

[deadjames]

Pikachu clearly needed more nerfs

I'm tempted to go all Pika at the next tourney I go to that's streamed so I can prove that he's not bad.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

it's... kind of a big deal luis. people being able to attack or shoot projectiles poorly and still hit you is really obnoxious

I'm not saying that it isn't, but, from both an offensive and defensive perspective, I don't think it's as significant as it was in Brawl. Being large doesn't strike me as "the one thing holding DK/Charizard/Bowser back," is all, when someone like Charizard or Falcon was really screwed by a greater number of relevant characters in a greater number of situations in Brawl.

 

[MagnesD3]

You don't need to hold B to get to the window. It happens regardless. You have like 17 frames where you can jump even if you don't hold B at all. Either way, a hold vs tap input for Brawl/Melee down-b doesn't work because Melee's needs to hit frame 1.

so its not possible to make a hold b become kick shine without screwing up the good shine from melee? If so thats a bummer :/

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm not saying that it isn't, but, from both an offensive and defensive perspective, I don't think it's as significant as it was in Brawl. Being large doesn't strike me as "the one thing holding DK/Charizard/Bowser back," is all.

Oh it's not the only thing, that's for sure. I agree.

 

[MagnesD3]

No way in hell is Brawl Falco f-smash a buff.

Also shine throwing by holding the button definitely makes jump out of shine much more difficult since that input is partially reliant on holding b to reach the jump window.

Falcos Brawl fsmash is still good though, it might be more of a "change" then a buff but I enjoy it more personally. Anyways even if these changes are nerfs it gives some holes in falcos game which is a good thing since fox and falco probably dont have a true 4-6 in the entire game.. (but I definitely could be wrong time is against me for sure...)

 

[deadjames]

Falcos Brawl fsmash is still good though, it might be more of a "change" then a buff but I enjoy it more personally. Anyways even if these changes are nerfs it gives some holes in falcos game which is a good thing since fox and falco probably dont have a true 4-6 in the entire game.. (but I definitely could be wrong time is against me for sure...)

I'd argue for MK and Pit, maybe even Wolf, but that's kind of pushing it.

 

[MagnesD3]

I

I'd argue for MK and Pit, maybe even Wolf, but that's kind of pushing it.

I've heard metaknight argued to win (which I definitely could see) but I've only heard pit beats them since armadas win so idk about that one.

 

[Spiffykins]

It'd be sweet if Falco's f smash got the same treatment as his jab, but I dunno if I'd support actually replacing the original properties. Looking at the animation from Melee, it doesn't seem like it'd be too hard to match the hitboxes to a Brawl-ish animation.

I

I've heard metaknight argued to win (which I definitely could see) but I've only heard pit beats them since armadas win so idk about that one.

This wouldn't be the first time Armada has changed opinions about characters simply by playing them.

 

[Infil]

doesn't Sonic do pretty well against Fox?

 

[DMG]

Old Sonic did good vs like everyone

 

[Nguz95]

Current Sonic can go to town on Fox. Side-b wd side-b for days can take fox right off the edge of the stage and straight to his doom.

 

[Deleted member]

Is it, though? In what prevalent situations does size play a major factor in fighting others, both in terms of good and bad characters?

It's not nearly as big a deal as it is in Brawl, I'd say. Shortness is a nice attribute to have, but I don't think it affects the neutral game all that much overall in PM.

I'd say it only really affects squirtle and olimar defensively, but mostly squirtle. offensively, range is usually a function of size and affects a character's engagement options greatly.

as a comparison between games, i got nothing.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Wolf does extraordinarily against Fox, at least in being able to punish nair planing and ignore lasers. Wolf's shine can almost always lead to death or near it with Fox's weight class.

 

[JOE!]

Size is a double edged sword. On the one hand, sure it is easier to be hit. But on the other hand, size means you can hit others easier with bigger hitboxes yourself.

See:

A smaller character can't really pull that off.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This hitbox picture makes me feel uncomfortable.

 

[Doser]

because against other characters they wouldn't have hit you

I hope you realize that is a ridiculous statement.

 

[Strong Badam]

I hope it's obvious that being easier to hit, completely independent of your positioning, is clearly a liability, and requires less finesse (aka skill) to take advantage of.

 

[Empyrean]

Size is a double edged sword. On the one hand, sure it is easier to be hit. But on the other hand, size means you can hit others easier with bigger hitboxes yourself.

See:

A smaller character can't really pull that off.

I knew that Charizard's nair had ridiculous range, but goddamn...

 

[Bleck]

In my perfect world, Falco would keep his Melee Fsmash, and Fox would get a version of his Brawl Fsmash with the Melee hitboxes and timing. It just looks so cool.

 

[Doser]

I hope it's obvious that being easier to hit, completely independent of your positioning, is clearly a liability, and requires less finesse (aka skill) to take advantage of.

But see that wasn't the point, you stated that they are doing poorly. What reference do we have for good and bad if the end result is the same? What about comboing? I guess DK can combo poorly against space animals and still do well.

It's a ridiculous notion to say that someone is doing poorly or not by bringing in other characters as a reference.

 

[Kirks#1Fan]

Size and speed never held Kirk back. He showed that dash dancing is a beatable tactic, and Bowser was a viable character. Now I hear that he doesn't enter tournaments anymore. #free2.6Bowser #freeKirk All of these size liability posts are pure johns and speculation.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I'm not sure if that's a 5th troll account or if that's for real

 

[Kink-Link5]

But see that wasn't the point, you stated that they are doing poorly. What reference do we have for good and bad if the end result is the same? What about comboing? I guess DK can combo poorly against space animals and still do well.

It's a ridiculous notion to say that someone is doing poorly or not by bringing in other characters as a reference.

This is an accurate statement. DK can combo easily, ie, with a large margin of error, against several weight classes.

 

[Hashtag]

This is an accurate statement. DK can combo easily, ie, with a large margin of error, against several weight classes.

Also depends on your definition of "combo poorly".

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

My definition of 'combo poorly' is "Can't do it very well" but Idk.