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I'm curious as to what you have to say.
You can ALWAYS use formulas, they just need to be complex enough #mathrules :D
Well I did post a tier list and spent like an hour writng up reasoning (whichi did because someone else comlained this was becoming the 2nd social threasd) but then armada posted and it turned into the 20th discusion on pal fox and why olimar is not well designed. Which i do enjoy reading, and the snake talk was really interesting for me as i have no exp in that matchup.
No, I realize these are the only specific nerfs to the character. And to somebody else's argument, the invincibility on shine lent a LOT to his edgeguarding.
Not sure if this was directed at me, but to be clear, I'm not saying that the nerfs have ruined Fox... actually, I think he's about where he should be now... I just disagree with his general placement in the top tier now.
I don't practice PM much and don't know most of the match ups in the game. The only match up I feel like I truly know, aside from the Melee characters, is DDD and that's because I've played Fly in tournament multiple times.
The only thing the invincibility removal does is make Fox trade interactions he would have beat previously. He's not realistically going to be losing anything he didn't before.
Peach should be at least B, and Yoshi is either A or S imo. There are lots of other spots I disagree with, but those are the two that stood out the most.
This list is completely based off of characters placements in top 10 in 3.0 tournaments, with a little weight towards apex. So if someone is 'too low or too high' than they have probably just had unexpected results in recent tournaments or something
I was actually thinking of a list like this the other day. It's definitely interesting to see who is winning tournaments.
There are some great Melee Yoshi's that play PM though like Vectorman.
There are probably some issues here and there, most likely as you said from the sampling size, but I think there has been around 17 tournaments, so Ill probably update it in a while when more have happened. But tier lists must be mostly based on results otherwise there will be too much opinion and favoritism, if someone thinks a character is underrated in a tier list than that character should prove it in competitive play...,,,
But Vectorman is much more focused on Melee. He understands the character very well, but the rest of the cast (aside from the Melee top tiers) is also new. I meant "PM players" as in people who play PM first, as they're the ones who will know their matchups.
That's true. I still think Yoshi is top/high tier material though.
Oh, absolutely. I think Yoshi's a contender for top 5, but it won't show until someone proves it.
That's why I said purely based on results. Basing a tier list on what characters do well is a good approach, it's just that if you only based it on results, you end up with underrepresented characters being placed very low regardless of their strength as a character. Yoshi is a good example here as many people will agree that yoshi is pretty damn good in this game (likely in the top 20), but not a lot of people play Yoshi, so he will be underrepresented and in lists based on results he will generally be on the lower end. Which brings me to the other problem with relying purely on results is that what you're actually doing is creating a history of what characters have performed well in the past rather than a ranking of the character's relative goodness in comparison to the rest of the cast, or a prediction of what characters will do well in the future. In other words, I think a purely results based list is a great tool to use when trying to create a tier list, but shouldn't be substituted in place of one as it has issues that makes it function poorly as a tier list.
Not even close to Sonic-nerfed. As she stands, she's better than 2.5 Ivy, who I thought was already a fairly capable character in the right hands.
