Tier List Speculation

[jtm94]

I think Link is better when played mid-range rather then just throwing **** at your opponents the entire match but hey that's just me.

I agree with this. It just sucks that he can be played super campy.
The friend who plays Link is super aggro and he doesn't use boomerang long-range at all. It's all mid-range so he can convert a hit into some crazy combo.

 

[deadjames]

This is sort of true, and sort of untrue.

The way Link is right now, he's a much improved Melee version of himself, but with some of the same core problems (just not as crippling). It takes characters with very specific sets of tools, to dismantle Link and make him look incredibly bad. Even then, on 50-60% of those characters he has very extensive and strong combo games if you don't have impeccable SDI and DI. It takes someone like a Spacie, like a Sheik, like the new Mario, to make him look very bad. Your average "run of the mill" character will not body Link by any means. He's very capable, but doesn't fare well against much of top tier.


Vash: You're god damn right. My statement is the most true statement on PM characters and how people view them.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but isn't that exactly what an upper mid-tier character is like, look at Doc in Melee for example, he's better than the majority of the cast, but crumbles against the top tier.

 

[Strong Badam]

Just today or so LOL when that enlightenment chap started dissing string bad he just crumbled under the peer pressure and cannot return to ike without evoking painful memories of his online spankage by t_e

I have never been beaten as badly as when I played The Enlightenment on WiFi.

He is way too good at Giga Bowser Turbo dittos.

 

[Kaeldiar]

What? Link talk?? :D

I put Link at the top (well, right below Kirby) of upper/mid-high/B tier. His new tools in P:M make him pretty good. AGT made his bomb recovery a ton easier, and there are a thousand new tricks that are easier to pull off (i.e. actually feasible in a match) with his projectiles. His attacks are a little bit faster overall, his up-smash is actually usable like it was in 64, and boomerangs/bombs can do some serious camping/space controlling work.

That being said, he's still Link. He still gets combo'd to the moon and back, he's still a little bit slower than most of the top tier, and he still suffers from many of the same problems he always has (but to a much lesser degree).

I think that puts him high enough to do some work, but not top tier. Maybe high tier, if we get devoted Link mains *cough*Hylian*cough* to show up to big tournaments.

 

[DMG]

I think Link is better when played mid-range rather then just throwing **** at your opponents the entire match but hey that's just me.

Call it whatever range you will, it starts and end with Boomerang. I mean think about it this way: The closer the other guy is after touching it in any way, the sooner it will come back to you so that you can throw it again!

That's how most people play Link. Everyone is drawn to that projectile. Neither snow, nor rain, nor heat, nor M2K's Sheik will stop them from throwing that fandangled thing. Long range, short range, mid range, Cattle range, it don't matter shrimp platter baby! I'm throwing a god dang Boomerang.

Oh and then let's talk about the fun known as "Link with platforms who got bored and wants to AGT". God forbid a Luigi main sat down and wanted to play a game of Smash. He didn't know it was going to be a private showing to the world's most spectacular acrobatic circus. He'll have amazing stories about those times Link used Zair as a mixup onstage, all the projectiles he probably had to walk up and shield, all the fun he had dealing with the AGT/Upb/airdodge --> tether mixup Link had for recovering, oh it will be a joyous occasion!

I hate and love Link. On the one hand, it doesn't bother me that much because with enough searching and playing around, you will find some characters above him with favorable MU's to win. He's much more fair than any of the Spacies, and doesn't deserve to get slapped with nerfs at all. BUT, for the love of god please don't buff him anymore or do anything with him. Link is good enough now, to elicit well deserved groans and sighs. Like, I imagine this scenario happening, with the following words said verbatim between two Human Beings:

Reasonable Person A: "Hey, so what are we going to do to fix the problems Link has?"

Harbinger of Doom Z: "What problems? After I'm done with him, to hell if he has any weaknesses!"

 

[Kaeldiar]

If anything were to be done to Link, I would want his d-tilt to come out a little bit faster and be more of a poke, like in OoT. I know that makes him more like all the other swords users, but d-tilt is pretty unused as is. It's too slow at the moment, and if it popped them up a little bit, it could be followed by a supersilde f-smash or something else good. Sword combos are severely lacking with Link...

 

[9bit]

Can you imagine if PM Link had power crouch stab!? Haha!

For those who don't know, in Ocarina of Time (most notably), the crouch stab move Kaeldiar was referring to is when you hold shield without Z-targeting and stab with the attack button. It has no programmed set damage value: it just uses the damage of the last attack you did.

So like, if that were in PM, Link could do an F-smash or D-air and "store" that damage value for his down-tilt (so long as that was the last attack he used before d-tilt). Think of the possibilities! lol

 

[thedoctr11]

Link is just an awesome character. Rang is way overused though.

 

[jtm94]

On the contrary, I don't think boomerang is used enough.

He does have some sword combos, you can Down Throw into utilt, utilt, bair, bair, bair, regrab, etc. And has decent KO setups in general whether it be from boomerang into fair, uair, or dair. And Down Throw into uair works on pretty much everyone, sometimes down throw into dair. I've gotten KOd by that move WAY too many times. I double stick DI to avoid that douchery.

I think he's super solid, and UpB is the best ranged ledgeguarding tool to exist. If you miss the sweetspot or even just jump into it, the angle it sends at is not pleasant and only Link could recover from it with AGT shenanigans.

Hylian has an awesome Link, a lot of the other Links or even Tinks that I see(note I don't go out of my way to find them) are rather droll and have a very simple playstyle of poking with projectiles and 2 move combos if that's a thing. I really enjoy my friend's playstyle because he is the most aggressive Link I have ever seen, but he does do too much show-offy bomb drop shenanigans and making it look like Link dropped the bomb and kicked it at you just because he can.

 

[deadjames]

If anything were to be done to Link, I would want his d-tilt to come out a little bit faster and be more of a poke, like in OoT. I know that makes him more like all the other swords users, but d-tilt is pretty unused as is. It's too slow at the moment, and if it popped them up a little bit, it could be followed by a supersilde f-smash or something else good. Sword combos are severely lacking with Link...

Or you could just use Toon Link because he already has basically everything you described.

Edit: Link's dtilt is great if you use it as a follow-up to a jab cancel.

 

[BizzBop]

Alright, here's my attempt at putting together a tier list using a combination of tournament play I've seen since the release of 3.0, other tier lists, and my own speculation. I tried not to use too many tiers since the gap in viability between characters is nowhere near that of Melee or Brawl. Feel free to critique ( or praise ) anything you want--

S: Fox, Falco, Sheik, Wolf

A+: MK, Lucas, Mario, Wario, Marth, Roy

A: Peach, Ike, Ivy, Diddy, Pit, Snake, ZSS, Link

B+: CF, Lucario, Samus, Sonic, ROB, Zelda, Mewtwo

B: Yoshi, Kirby, DK, Bowser, Pikachu, Charizard, Toon Link, D3

C: ICs, Puff, Luigi, GnW, Squirtle, Ness, Ganon, Olimar

 

[deadjames]

Alright, here's my attempt at putting together a tier list using a combination of tournament play I've seen since the release of 3.0, other tier lists, and my own speculation. I tried not to use too many tiers since the gap in viability between characters is nowhere near that of Melee or Brawl. Feel free to critique ( or praise ) anything you want--

S: Fox, Falco, Sheik, Wolf

A+: MK, Lucas, Mario, Wario, Marth, Roy

A: Peach, Ike, Ivy, Diddy, Pit, Snake, ZSS, Link

B+: CF, Lucario, Samus, Sonic, ROB, Zelda, Mewtwo

B: Yoshi, Kirby, DK, Bowser, Pikachu, Charizard, Toon Link, D3

C: ICs, Puff, Luigi, GnW, Squirtle, Ness, Ganon, Olimar

Too high: Ike, Sonic, Mewtwo, Samus
Too low: ICs, Luigi, Yoshi, Ness
I can live with the rest of it even though I don't completely agree.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

When it boils down to it Link really is all about that rang, DMG is literally spot on in his description on Link's playstyle nature and options (boomerang ALWAYS being there) I've certainly played against some really sick links that are very aggressive, but I find it more or a novelty "wow, your link is really flashy! sick" rather than a "wow, that combo was the most absolute efficient and safest thing you could've done there!" all of the jazz could be justified with a boomerang to boomerang to boomerang to bait an approach to simple punish combo on the more precarious underwhelming cast. (rinse and repeat till infinity, ofc)

Andddd it is very true that he stands tall and extremely solid in a fair amount of matchups, yet somehow DOES get dominated by sheik/mario/insert aggressive priority/approach character here; It's literally like watching a whole different character play when it does occur! Hardly see a character with such an odd spread in matchups like that in PM..

A lot of truth has definitely been laid out about link already in this thread before this, thought'd I'd definitely have to chip in as someone with a lot to say about Link. Can't really bag em, but he's certainly out in the open when it comes to where he stands in this game, he's super solid overall.. almost glorified from melee to pm, if I had to say

 

[jtm94]

I kinda like BizzBop's list.
As of now that's kind of how I feel about each character.

I would almost switch B+ with B tier though.

 

[BizzBop]

Yeah, I really struggled with B+ and B as well. Initially they were all in the same tier, but then I divided the characters that I've seen do well in tournaments into the B+ tier rather than B. Either way, B+ and B I though of as the mid-tier line up so I'm wouldn't be surprised if other people switched a bunch of positions within those tiers.

 

[Jacob29]

Hey jtm don't diss the yoyo

Seeing a spacie attempt to recover vs the yoyo and fail several times in a row is priceless.

Being able to dangle it off the edge is 2gd.

Also a point about Olimar.. I think most people are plucking wrong. If you mash it he pulls them slowly but if you time them well you pluck a lot faster.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

2 move combos if that's a thing.

Play Ike. 2 move combos are considered long. -_-

 

[The_Altrox]

Here's a question: My friend who plays Wario is relentless with the side B and it's hard for me to deal with. Like, I see the cool down period afterwards, it should be easy for me to punish (and with certain characters, I can), but it keeps tearing apart my shields when I block and it keeps knocking me back when it hits. What's the best way to deal with this? Is it just a matter of playing against Wario over and over again until I can telegraph that stuff?

 

[Jacob29]

Who do you play

 

[Jolteon]

Here's a question: My friend who plays Wario is relentless with the side B and it's hard for me to deal with. Like, I see the cool down period afterwards, it should be easy for me to punish (and with certain characters, I can), but it keeps tearing apart my shields when I block and it keeps knocking me back when it hits. What's the best way to deal with this? Is it just a matter of playing against Wario over and over again until I can telegraph that stuff?

if you shield it, wd oos and punish.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I think Link is better when played mid-range rather then just throwing **** at your opponents the entire match but hey that's just me.

I think Link is better when all his tools are utilized at the appropriate time.

 

[The_Altrox]

if you shield it, wd oos and punish.

Yeah, I still can't wavedash properly in battle. Still working on that detail.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I'm maintaining the fact that people are still sleeping on dedede." - Lv. 100 Magikarp

Et cetera, et cetera, until the end of time. I've quoted it before, and I'll quote it again,

"Everyone's sleeping on everyone" - DMG

To be fair, I think I wrote that when DDD waas almost like 2.1 GnW, where the lack of confidence in a tier placing was almost becoming a meme and people would go out of thier way to make DDD as low as possible on a tier list. Also, this I think was shortly after LTC, where people only attributed Fly's success with DDD to the fact this nobody knew the matchup. Which was true, nobody did, but I meant to say that nobody was giving the actual character enough credit, and that DDD wasn't a pichu.

 

[Blade-Fox]

Character popularity as in numbers in entries for every character in every tournament or popularity as in like a poll?

I could honestly see both. Popularity in tournament and popularity outside of a tournament environment where nothing is on the line (usually).

 

[Doser]

I don't feel that chaotic is the right word. He actually has the freedom to be creative because his combos aren't flow charts.

Could you please tell us a Wolf combo (or any combo) that cannot be fully described by a flow chart?

 

[DMG]

I think Link is better when all his tools are utilized at the appropriate time.

What if you could throw out multiple Boomerangs, or at least refresh the first one at any time without having to wait for its return? Would I want to play against Link anymore? Nay, said the wise man

 

[Kaeldiar]

Or you could just use Toon Link because he already has basically everything you described.

Edit: Link's dtilt is great if you use it as a follow-up to a jab cancel.

Well, that's one bonus Tink has. I feel like he has better sword combo-juggling stuff. Then again, almost every attack of his is a sword...

That being said, I like everything else about Link better than Tink. I get bodied with Tink just as much as I do with Link. His (Tink's) sword isn't long enough to play spacing games as well. He can Bair, but not much else. His projectiles don't have as much hitstun as Link's, either. Link can bomb/boomerang both defensively to create space and offensively to lead into combos. That doesn't work as well with Tink. He might get a bit of damage from them, but they don't seem to be as effective.

Granted, I didn't have too much time to play as him before going back to university, so maybe I was just playing him too much like Brawl Tink. Also, his recovery sucks. Suckish recovery generally leads to a suckish character. Falco can avoid this because his neutral game is so good, but it is the one thing that keeps him below Fox in every tier list ever, not counting Brawl where Fox was mega-nerfed.

 

[Oro?!]

Yeah, I still can't wavedash properly in battle. Still working on that detail.

If you shield sideB, you can honestly either just jump and fair if you have decent range or aerial mobility. Either that or just drop your shield and some characters can fsmash like Marth.

 

[The_NZA]

M2k is the only one not sleeping on Link. He thinks Link is the 1st or 2nd best character in the game...that dude might just be a little TOO awake on this character.

EDIT: like he hasn't slept in 3 days, awake.

 

[Fenrir VII]

In my limited time with Link (as a former Melee main), P:M Link plays like Melee Link, except literally ANYTHING you want to do seems to work...

Continue a combo into a Nair/bair > Grab? Sure, why not?
Pressure the living s* out of somebody's shield? you got it...
Put up a tent and go camping? Yep, that works too...

Link had surprisingly good matchups in Melee against the top tiers (except Sheik of course)... so with his buffs, I can definitely see him competing with the best... As for 1 or 2... yeah, I don't know enough to know, but I love what the P:M team has done with him.

I have a feeling that his recovery will keep him down somewhat, but he's a seriously good character.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm going to be honest. We can laugh at M2K's thoughts on Link, but we have no idea who the best character in the game is. We think we do because Foxco has 12 years of metagame and we're lazy, but considering how young P:M is, *who the hell knows?*

 

[thedoctr11]

On the contrary, I don't think boomerang is used enough.

He does have some sword combos, you can Down Throw into utilt, utilt, bair, bair, bair, regrab, etc. And has decent KO setups in general whether it be from boomerang into fair, uair, or dair. And Down Throw into uair works on pretty much everyone, sometimes down throw into dair. I've gotten KOd by that move WAY too many times. I double stick DI to avoid that douchery.

I think he's super solid, and UpB is the best ranged ledgeguarding tool to exist. If you miss the sweetspot or even just jump into it, the angle it sends at is not pleasant and only Link could recover from it with AGT shenanigans.

Hylian has an awesome Link, a lot of the other Links or even Tinks that I see(note I don't go out of my way to find them) are rather droll and have a very simple playstyle of poking with projectiles and 2 move combos if that's a thing. I really enjoy my friend's playstyle because he is the most aggressive Link I have ever seen, but he does do too much show-offy bomb drop shenanigans and making it look like Link dropped the bomb and kicked it at you just because he can.

Well said. Thank you for your insights. I'm still new to the forums/competitive smash as a whole .

 

[DMG]

I'm going to be honest. We can laugh at M2K's thoughts on Link, but we have no idea who the best character in the game is. We think we do because Foxco has 12 years of metagame and we're lazy, but considering how young P:M is, *who the hell knows?*

 

[deadjames]

Well, that's one bonus Tink has. I feel like he has better sword combo-juggling stuff. Then again, almost every attack of his is a sword...

That being said, I like everything else about Link better than Tink. I get bodied with Tink just as much as I do with Link. His (Tink's) sword isn't long enough to play spacing games as well. He can Bair, but not much else. His projectiles don't have as much hitstun as Link's, either. Link can bomb/boomerang both defensively to create space and offensively to lead into combos. That doesn't work as well with Tink. He might get a bit of damage from them, but they don't seem to be as effective.

Granted, I didn't have too much time to play as him before going back to university, so maybe I was just playing him too much like Brawl Tink. Also, his recovery sucks. Suckish recovery generally leads to a suckish character. Falco can avoid this because his neutral game is so good, but it is the one thing that keeps him below Fox in every tier list ever, not counting Brawl where Fox was mega-nerfed.

Tink's only projectiles that aren't better than Link's are his arrows, and his recovery is pretty good if you utilize bomb jumps, I do agree that his lack of range can be a problem, but that's kind of MU dependent, sure he can't play a spacing game against Marth or Ike, but against like Pika or Ness that's another story. Also there are other good characters with bad recoveries besides Falco. There's Wario, Luigi, Bowser, Yoshi, Lucas, Wolf, and Snake just to name a few.

 

[GP&B]

*Star Foxy Hot Damn*

I'm trying to come up with a witty response and I'm just breathing intensely.

This is a problem.

 

[BizzBop]

I'm going to be honest. We can laugh at M2K's thoughts on Link, but we have no idea who the best character in the game is. We think we do because Foxco has 12 years of metagame and we're lazy, but considering how young P:M is, *who the hell knows?*

I think the fact that the melee top tiers have been advancing their meta for 12 years longer than every other P:M character is exactly what puts them at the top of the tier list currently. Sure, maybe when smashers have developed other characters deeper into their metagame, then we'll see some competition against fox and falco for that top spot. But in terms of building a current tier list, fox and falco have 12 years of development to make them the best in the way P:M is currently being played.

 

[jtm94]

Link/TL have some of the best recovery in the game. And I know that is said A LOT, but they truly do.

I don't see how Sheik bodies Link all that much. The MU can't be more than 55/45 if it is skewed at all.

I'd back up what M2K said, but I;d also back anyone else up that said the same thing.

 

[Oracle]

Link is secretly broken especially double link on a team unstoppable #thebiforce

 

[Metazoa]

Sounds a bit more like the WHYforce for opponents.

 

[Paradoxium]

I'd love to apply some pressure on her shield...