Tier List Speculation

[Player -0]

Im trying with Boozer but man it can be hard in some match ups...

I don't have much bowser experience but I believe that by sitting on people you will become victorious!

 

[The_Altrox]

Im trying with Boozer but man it can be hard in some match ups...

My Ganon has difficulty with Lucas and Falco. Still, I only have a few friends to play with, so I have little experience otherwise.

 

[Deleted member]

So, basically P:M is easier to pick up and harder to master, and I think most of us can agree that that's a good thing.

Yes, I can agree with that, although my argument was mostly pertaining to the difficulty in mastering the game considering I originally replied to Armada, who is obviously not a beginner.

 

[Jacob29]

I don't have much bowser experience but I believe that by sitting on people you will become victorious!

My friend mains Ness and I think its a pretty rough match for Bowser...

but an edgeguard I occasionally do is Down-Bing on him while he PKT2's back to the stage.

Pretty funny.

My Ganon has difficulty with Lucas and Falco. Still, I only have a few friends to play with, so I have little experience otherwise.

MORE SIDE-B!!!

 

[SpiderMad]

Is "easier-to-perform-short-hop" still a thing? That 1-frame extra on jumpsquat animation?

Yes, but they're the same length it's just the frame that it checks for button release that is on the very last frame possible in Brawl where Melee checks a frame earlier than it had to (possibly due to bad coding, unless they wanted the game to be harder) and in fact that played a part in making one of my friends who played Fox in Melee and Ness in PM sadly kind of ditch Melee recently completely for PM (After I went SS Falco one night).

 

[9bit]

Yes, but they're the same length it's just the frame that it checks for button release that is on the very last frame possible in Brawl where Melee checks a frame earlier than it had to (possibly due to bad coding, unless they wanted the game to be harder) and in fact that played a part in making one of my friends who played Fox in Melee and Ness in PM sadly kind of ditch Melee recently completely for PM (After I went SS Falco one night).

Ah, I see.

Yeah I love the 1 extra frame to short hop thing. I tried to play Melee they other day and was failing miserably at SH with Sheik. To think I used to be good at that game. And now I suck.

 

[The_Altrox]

MORE SIDE-B!!!

Through a laser? lol

 

[Jacob29]

Through a laser? lol

With the right attitude!

 

[SpiderMad]

Ah, I see.

Yeah I love the 1 extra frame to short hop thing. I tried to play Melee they other day and was failing miserably at SH with Sheik. To think I used to be good at that game. And now I suck.

http://smashboards.com/threads/ssbm-statistics-list.30064/
"4 frames - Fox / Ice Climbers / Kirby / Pichu / Pikachu / Samus / Sheik"
Indeed many characters now benefit from a more reasonable short hop. All these characters, along with I think a couple added in PM: are at a point in difficulty to short hop where it's hard to fathom how they COULDN'T have wanted to make Melee very competitive. I don't believe casuals could have performed close to consistent short hops with them, though I don't remember those good old casual days with friends much anymore.

 

[Nguz95]

Only one person on that list applies to that statement.

Yes, the callout is real.

When I saw you quoted one of my posts, I thought, That's strange, I haven't posted anything worthwhile on this forum for quite some time now. Then I thought, Oh crap, he's going to fry me for saying something about Snake. Finally, I clicked on it, saw that you highlighted the first line, and breathed a huge sigh of relief.

Just an average day on Smashboards.

Edit:

Through a laser? lol

Whenever they start camping you, approach to about the distance of a side-b, and then Wizard's foot right through their projectile. It works like a charm and keeps them from camping next time.

 

[jtm94]

it's not that PM is easier, it's that bull****ting is easier. melee in its early days had just about the same amount of gimmicks, but 2014 is explicitly pretty far away from the early days. new characters to play + new, relatively inexperienced players who didn't touch much of melee or brawl = new ways to bull****. things that aren't safe are always safe if you don't know how to punish them, after all

I agree with this post 1000 times over.

 

[Professor Pro]

When I saw you quoted one of my posts, I thought, That's strange, I haven't posted anything worthwhile on this forum for quite some time now. Then I thought, Oh crap, he's going to fry me for saying something about Snake. Finally, I clicked on it, saw that you highlighted the first line, and breathed a huge sigh of relief.

Just an average day on Smashboards.

Edit:

Whenever they start camping you, approach to about the distance of a side-b, and then Wizard's foot right through their projectile. It works like a charm and keeps them from camping next time.

LOL Even if I was going to disagree/fry you it's nothing to worry about, I have no issues with people arriving at different conclusions from me, I am not the Snake dictator, I am still learning this game and MU's as much as everyone else <3
Unless you arrive at conclusions for stupid reasons, disagreements are ok.

 

[The_Altrox]

Whenever they start camping you, approach to about the distance of a side-b, and then Wizard's foot right through their projectile. It works like a charm and keeps them from camping next time.

I'll try that. I don't use the Wizard foot that much, but it's so satisfying whenever I randomly bring it out and take those mother lovers by surprise. Admittedly, I do go for the choke a lot. Maybe a bit too much.

 

[DMG]

I don't understand what people mean by "easier," which some might think has a negative connotation when it comes to competitiveness. All of Melee's advanced techniques are there, on top of some of the stuff that was in Brawl, and there are 3 times as many matchups to learn considering most characters are actually threatening in the right hands at this point.

...and that somehow equates to "easier"?

"Easier" doesn't have to lean one way or the other. Could carry negative or positive (or even neutral) connotations. I think you over-reacted to what he said, and got really defensive.

it's not that PM is easier, it's that bull****ting is easier. melee in its early days had just about the same amount of gimmicks, but 2014 is explicitly pretty far away from the early days. new characters to play + new, relatively inexperienced players who didn't touch much of melee or brawl = new ways to bull****. things that aren't safe are always safe if you don't know how to punish them, after all

That's sort of true, but mostly for the newer Brawl characters. Melee vets that got buffs usually shored up their weaknesses, instead of adding on new movement or attack angles or x. The legend of Charizard's butt though is real: that is certified jank 101% with a 1% margin of error

 

[9bit]

I'll try that. I don't use the Wizard foot that much, but it's so satisfying whenever I randomly bring it out and take those mother lovers by surprise. Admittedly, I do go for the choke a lot. Maybe a bit too much.

The Foot is a bit better now that you can reverse it. So you can be facing away from them, maybe threatening a back-air, and do a quick reverse Foot right in their face. It can catch them off guard at least once or twice.

 

[The_Altrox]

The Foot is a bit better now that you can reverse it. So you can be facing away from them, maybe threatening a back-air, and do a quick reverse Foot right in their face. It can catch them off guard at least once or twice.

I completely forgot I can reverse foot (I never feel the need for it, but I should pay more attention). I gotta try that more often.

 

[Nguz95]

LOL Even if I was going to disagree/fry you it's nothing to worry about, I have no issues with people arriving at different conclusions from me, I am not the Snake dictator, I am still learning this game and MU's as much as everyone else <3
Unless you arrive at conclusions for stupid reasons, disagreements are ok.

I get a rush whenever I see somebody quoted a post I made. It's like I'm preparing myself for an argument before I even know what happened. I'm pretty guarded person, even in regular conversation, so I guess that's something I carried online with me.

Edit:

I completely forgot I can reverse foot (I never feel the need for it, but I should pay more attention). I gotta try that more often.

Reversing the down-b is crucial. That's how you set up tech chases and early kills with side-b. If someone starts teching behind you, you can smack them with wizard's foot instead of using side-b again

 

[Strong Badam]

Also Dankey kang? is SSS+ BROKEN tier

I was immobilized by laughter.

I think DEHF @ Apex is a good indicator of far well people have taken their characters at this point. The Melee vets are clearly more developed, but a lot of Melee players don't do well in PM if they've never practiced it before. As someone who's put work into the game and is more familiar with the match-ups, despite not being a top Melee player, he was still able to make it very far in the tournament. Aside from understanding the basic functions and properties of moves, it seems very few PM players have taken their characters even close to where they could go (which is awesome).

Not to knock Larry or anything but his bracket was way easier than like anyone else's, the seeding at APEX was super questionable (Fly/larry on the same half, M2k/Rolex/Eli on thesame half, M2K/Armada on the same half) and that's not even getting into some of the pools which were then made even less balanced by some Melee players who don't give a **** not showing up like Hax.

 

[9bit]

Danky Kang is OP cuz he goes so fast and has all those rings

Spoiler

 

[NiPPs]

Only one person on that list applies to that statement.

Yes, the callout is real.

just wanted to state some facts

1- Rolex is def better than you
2- just because you stream and have videos of you styling on your friends that aren't good at the game doesn't make you good.
3- jolteon sucks.
4- jolteon refused to approach rolex for a money match(dont wanna hear the no money excuse because he money matched other people)
5- he was 4 stocked by gallo and would stand no chance against rolex
6- you're clearly the next best snake
7- no idea what jolteon looked like so we couldnt even approach him for the money match that he would of refused to do so any way.
8- your years of melee experience probably will no longer be a factor if you ever got to verse rolex.
9- you have no pm tournament experience with any good pm players.
10- rolex is the best snake

#thetruthhurts

 

[The_Altrox]

Reversing the down-b is crucial. That's how you set up tech chases and early kills with side-b. If someone starts teching behind you, you can smack them with wizard's foot instead of using side-b again

Is this discussed in detail on the Ganon board? I assume it is. I was looking, but I couldn't find what I was looking for. It wasn't as organized as I had hoped.

 

[Nguz95]

Is this discussed in detail on the Ganon board? I assume it is. I was looking, but I couldn't find what I was looking for. It wasn't as organized as I had hoped.

I'm not sure. I haven't combed through the Ganon boards in a while. I'll see if I can find something though.

 

[Professor Pro]

just wanted to state some facts

1- Rolex is def better than you
2- just because you stream and have videos of you styling on your friends that aren't good at the game doesn't make you goo
3- jolteon sucks.
4- jolteon refused to approach rolex for a money match(dont wanna hear the no money excuse because he money matched other people)
5- he was 4 stocked by gallo and would stand no chance against rolex
6- you're clearly the next best snake
7- no idea what jolteon looked like so we couldnt even approach him for the money match that he would of refused to do so any way.
8- your years of melee experience probably will no longer be a factor if you ever got to verse rolex.
9- you have no pm tournament experience with any good pm players.
10- rolex is the best snake

#thetruthhurts

LOL *facepalms*...friends...

 

[Metazoa]

On the subject of Dankey Kang, I'd say he's pretty high-tier.

 

[Empyrean]

Everytime I watch one of Rolex's matches, at first I think "WTF is this guy doing?! He's getting owned like crazy!" and as I finish that thought the guy goes ham and completely murders the opponent like there's no tomorrow.

I haven't seen P. Pro play, so I can't judge who the better Snake is.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Imagine a madman laughing maniacally as every grab is converted into death.

 

[Strong Badam]

yo I wanna see a $100 MM rolex vs prof pro next APEX

 

[Professor Pro]

yo I wanna see a $100 MM rolex vs prof pro next APEX

I'll do it if I actually have the money to put up, though I don't really want the next Apex to be the next US event I go to since that's literally 1 year away.

I'll try to make the next big US event with PM and Melee at...Genesis or whatever.

 

[Professor Pro]

I just remembered, I would much rather do the $100 + trash bag money match which my friend told me happens in his Tekken community.

Basically after you lose you have to put on a trash bag, and look into a camera and say 'My name is [insert smash name] and I'm trash'.

 

[DMG]

That's nothing

Have you ever heard of the legendary "Butt crack" Money Match?

 

[Sethlon]

DMG pls
We don't talk about those dark days, you know that

 

[DMG]

Very dark days for the loser...

 

[Wrestlemania]

Very dark days for the loser...

And the money.

 

[Strong Badam]

I'll do it if I actually have the money to put up, though I don't really want the next Apex to be the next US event I go to since that's literally 1 year away.

I'll try to make the next big US event with PM and Melee at...Genesis or whatever.

I don't know if Rolex goes out of state.

 

[Kaeldiar]

So, my real points are:
Where do you think is Snake? He is mostly considered slightly better than 10th and I might think he is even better. It is obvious that he hasn't the best defensive tools and his neutral game is also not S Tier, but with his many options a very smart player could use his trap setups (you could use all of mine, C4, grenade) to get him into a favourable position.
I think this character has very much potential

Where is Jiggs? She has both very favourable and not favourable matchups, not that more to explain...

And where is Olimar? I think he also has more potential than people are aware of (not enough metagame still) and he can do different strategies for different pikmin combinations. He has to many weaknesses to be as high as S or A tier but I think he could be B

I think Snake is pretty high tier. Rolex showed us just how good a Snake player can be. The mind games that can be played are incredible. Snake is a character that takes a good level of technical skill AND having the mental advantage over your opponent. You can't just use a formula to win as Snake, you have to outsmart them.

That being said, being able to play mind games gives him a huge advantage over other characters, but he is susceptible to rinse-and-repeat characters. A good Fox can waveshine him off the stage. His recovery is average if he doesn't grenade boost, and abysmally predictable. He has poor MUs against the spacies in particular, which prevents him from being top tier, imo.

Jigglypuff: I haven't seen one dominate in P:M like in Melee, but I only got to watch Hbox play against Wario, which is a pretty sucky MU for The Puff. I still think she's alright, but not high tier. She didn't benefit from the change very much, but the rest of the cast got buffs that make her less effective.

Olimar: God, I see Olimars either get destroyed or win some very good battles. He's a VERY small target, has decent KO power, has the aerial movement to chain together a combo or two...but he's god awful light, his recovery is subpar, and he seems to lack just a little bit too much in a few too many departments. His comboing is good, but not superb. He has KO power IF he has a purple or a flowered Pikmin...etc. I just don't think he's all that great. Good? Yes. Good enough for mid tier? Maybe on a good day.

 

[Professor Pro]

I don't know if Rolex goes out of state.

Wasn't Apex out of his state. I'm not too familiar with who lives where except JCaesar living in Maryland and Eli and Leelue living in NY lol.

If the MM has to wait a year then OK, but planning to have an MM in 1 year seems nooby and not hyped lol.
I'm still going to plan to make the next US major whether he is there or not, but money issues so we'll see

 

[Deleted member]

I think you over-reacted to what he said, and got really defensive.

That wasn't the case at all. I simply didn't agree and was explaining why. It's not like I went on a rant and typed out an essay.

 

[popsofctown]

I'm getting disappointed by this thread. There are real, valuable posts about its actual topic, spaced between walls of offtopic "callouts" and trolling. It's one thing to go on a tangent for a post or two but I would really like to see more moderator action or poster discretion to keep the posts here on topic. Project M is not going to be a richer, stronger game three years from now because everyone learned about trashbag moneymatching.

I had something to contribute but it was pertinent to a post 2 pages of crap ago, so there's little point now.

 

[TKD]

fox, pit, mk, diddy and mewtwo for top 5
maybe lucas instead of mk/m2

 

[9bit]

Mewtwo is not top 5 and you forgot Falco