Tier List Speculation

[The_Enlightenment_]

Sounds like we have ourselves a buttmad furry. Yiff in hell nerdlord buttsniffer

Do furries really sniff butts? If they do thats sick nasty lol

 

[NWRL]

Do furries really sniff butts? If they do thats sick nasty lol

Yeah they're p gross m8

 

[GMaster171]

Lol thats what strong bad wants you to believe you sheep. At this point its obvious youre either trolling or wasting my time with poorly articulated responses so if you have nothing good to say why dont you take all of your trash arguments and "counter points" to the smash 4 forums? Youll find plenty of that over there, trust me, but we pmers conduct ourselves better than that, mind you.

Ignoring facts in favor of a personal vendetta is a good way of getting ignored my good sir.

 

[The_Altrox]

He was already nerfed into the ground, where have you been for the past 6 months? His shine and lasers are nearly useless because some people just cant figure out that fox has several weaknesses other than being susceptible to chain grabs. Also its not like hes god tier either, where have you been for the past 12 years? Its already been established that fox is no better than any other top tier and it took a mango for him to win at evo. His national tournament record is far less impressive than you people would expect it to be. You all will always be nerds in my eyes when your leader is strong bad, the king of all nerds

Okay, let me clarify some things.

1. I'm very casual. I haven't been to a real Brawl or Melee tournament in years, simply because my life hasn't left me a whole lot of time to do so. Because of this, I'm not always up to date with every little detail. I play with a very small group of friends, so my outside experience with this game is also limited.
2. Past six months? I've only been playing this game since November. Because I didn't play Fox in Melee, I was not so sure how similarly or differently he plays between PM and Melee. I knew he was nerfed a bit (I assumed it was to make him on par with everybody else), but I wasn't sure to what extent. Again, I never was much into Fox.
As for how good he is now, only one of my friends play him, and I can beat him, but that doesn't say much. One person's fox ability obviously doesn't speak for the world's.
3. I know he's not God tier. I just figured that he was really good, so I assumed that nerfs against him were for balancing reasons, but again, I did not know to what extent they were.
4. Is that a superiority complex? Some people like Melee, others like Brawl. Nothing wrong with that. I don't even follow Strong Bad >__>

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

Ignoring facts in favor of a personal vendetta is a good way of getting ignored my good sir.

Okay then how would you have prefered me to respond? Strong bad is a serious problem in these forums and yet everyone turns a blind eye to the damage its causing

 

[GMaster171]

I would have preferred you actually considered the things I said instead of seeing the word SB and disregarding the rest.

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

Okay, let me clarify some things.

1. I'm very casual. I haven't been to a real Brawl or Melee tournament in years, simply because my life hasn't left me a whole lot of time to do so. Because of this, I'm not always up to date with every little detail. I play with a very small group of friends, so my outside experience with this game is also limited.
2. Past six months? I've only been playing this game since November. Because I didn't play Fox in Melee, I was not so sure how similarly or differently he plays between PM and Melee. I knew he was nerfed a bit (I assumed it was to make him on par with everybody else), but I wasn't sure to what extent. Again, I never was much into Fox.
As for how good he is now, only one of my friends play him, and I can beat him, but that doesn't say much. One person's fox ability obviously doesn't speak for the world's.
3. I know he's not God tier. I just figured that he was really good, so I assumed that nerfs against him were for balancing reasons, but again, I did not know to what extent they were.
4. Is that a superiority complex? Some people like Melee, others like Brawl. Nothing wrong with that. I don't even follow Strong Bad >__>

Oh im sorry then, Its just in times like these its pretty easy to get a little paranoid is all. But yeah fox is definitely a balanced character in melee whose popularity is a testiment to both his and melees fun fast engaging gameplay, and not his brokenness or anything like that. And when it comes to strong bad its pretty relieving to see someone else who doesnt believe in him or his propaganda, but I promise just take one look at this man and youd agree that if strong bad was a superhero his power would be super nerdyism.

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

I would have preferred you actually considered the things I said instead of seeing the word SB and disregarding the rest.

The mods should replace strong bad with asterisks whenever people wildly throw it around like that. Its indecent you know

 

[NWRL]

if strong bad was a superhero his power would be super nerdyism.

I'd say getting 10/10 megasalt shaker mad is his superpower

 

[Soft Serve]

Okay papa stone, you have 69 posts.

Thats the perfect number to leave it at

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

I just ruined it didnt I. SIlly me

 

[The_Altrox]

See, I really don't care who gets nerfed or buffed, so long as the game is balanced in the end. Obviously, every character can't be brought to the same level and not everybody will have a 50:50 match up with everybody else. I just don't want a bunch of Brawl Ganons and Melee Kirby's floating around.

Even so, I'm accepting the fact that Ganon will probably be mid tier goodness at best. I still like him though

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

Oh wait im not papa stone you must have me confused with somebody else

 

[Chesstiger2612]

At this point its obvious youre either trolling or wasting my time with poorly articulated responses so if you have nothing good to say why dont you take all of your trash arguments and "counter points" to the smash 4 forums?

Speaking about trolling :D But well, OK, I don't mind you to troll...

So, my real points are:
Where do you think is Snake? He is mostly considered slightly better than 10th and I might think he is even better. It is obvious that he hasn't the best defensive tools and his neutral game is also not S Tier, but with his many options a very smart player could use his trap setups (you could use all of mine, C4, grenade) to get him into a favourable position.
I think this character has very much potential

Where is Jiggs? She has both very favourable and not favourable matchups, not that more to explain...

And where is Olimar? I think he also has more potential than people are aware of (not enough metagame still) and he can do different strategies for different pikmin combinations. He has to many weaknesses to be as high as S or A tier but I think he could be B

 

[Nguz95]

The disguise has slipped.

 

[Soft Serve]

Oh wait im not papa stone you must have me confused with somebody else

 

[Kink-Link5]

Speaking about trolling :D But well, OK, I don't mind you to troll...

So, my real points are:
Where do you think is Snake? He is mostly considered slightly better than 10th and I might think he is even better. It is obvious that he hasn't the best defensive tools and his neutral game is also not S Tier, but with his many options a very smart player could use his trap setups (you could use all of mine, C4, grenade) to get him into a favourable position.
I think this character has very much potential

Where is Jiggs? She has both very favourable and not favourable matchups, not that more to explain...

And where is Olimar? I think he also has more potential than people are aware of (not enough metagame still) and he can do different strategies for different pikmin combinations. He has to many weaknesses to be as high as S or A tier but I think he could be B

Olimar is decent enough to be above the characters that actually struggle, but not enough to go ham on the cast evenly. Never mind that his design is atrocious.

 

[Nguz95]

So, my real points are:
Where do you think is Snake? He is mostly considered slightly better than 10th and I might think he is even better. It is obvious that he hasn't the best defensive tools and his neutral game is also not S Tier, but with his many options a very smart player could use his trap setups (you could use all of mine, C4, grenade) to get him into a favourable position.
I think this character has very much potential

Where is Jiggs? She has both very favourable and not favourable matchups, not that more to explain...

And where is Olimar? I think he also has more potential than people are aware of (not enough metagame still) and he can do different strategies for different pikmin combinations. He has to many weaknesses to be as high as S or A tier but I think he could be B

After playing Snake for a little I have come to the conclusion that Professor Pro and Rolex are obscenely good at this game. Snake has some good defensive option (mostly cypher out of shield), but his approach game is relatively poor. His combo game is crazy, and he is able to kill the entire cast earlier than everybody in the game. Despite his weak approach, he's a very impressive character and i think putting him in the top 10 is perfectly reasonable.

I can't say anything about jiggs and olimar, I have no experience with him.

 

[Metazoa]

And where is Olimar? I think he also has more potential than people are aware of (not enough metagame still) and he can do different strategies for different pikmin combinations. He has to many weaknesses to be as high as S or A tier but I think he could be B

As an Olimar main, if you asked me right this second where I saw him on the list, I'd say around the C+ to B- area.
Pretty good grab game that sets up for moves that, even when not at full power, combo fairly well into each other and only get better over time. Very nice ranged game where he can rack up damage or attempt to keep others at bay with his Side B or even his side smash.

An OK recovery marred at times by somewhat spotty AI and a tendency to lose trades, as well as few good OoS options are what hold him back in my opinion. Those might seem small, but in a game where most every character has a real nice recovery and really good ways to both stack on damage and keep people from recovering, Olimar just falls a bit short.

 

[Metazoa]

I messed up. Think of this as a double post.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Thanks for responses. Btw, grab when pikmin are damaging your opponent can be so devastating...

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

The fact that the white pikmin explode is the biggest bs. They had great utility for pikmin throwing and pummeling during grabs

 

[Deleted member]

I can't tell if this thread has gotten worse or better. Is it possible that the answer is both?

 

[jtm94]

Olimar has a lot of potential, but people aren't always a fan of the character that sits back and pokes.
Look at Jiggs in Melee, or even Peach for that matter, you really don't see all that many even though they can potentially win or at the least reach top 8 in a tournament setting.

It isn't always enjoyable for either player, but that doesn't make him bad. I will say his recovery is lackluster and the hop he gets from UpB has actually gotten me KOd from it popping me above the ledge into attacks. He just has the potential to do mad damage, the downside is that I feel he should be played campy. His Pikmin die too easily (still), and benefit from flowering which takes time to do. I'll find myself stalling or running away so my pikmin can reach at least buds before going in for attacks.

His Nair is amazing though, and FTilt has some serious knockback for being a non pikmin move. DownSmash will KO any character at moderate to fairly percents.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I tend to agree that Fox is not all that special in P:M, and is only doing well in tournaments because of his prevalence.

Granted, I have very limited P:M experience, but from my side as a Melee fox player, a lot of his tricks and fun combos just don't work anymore... to the point where it's frustrating.

Thing I see is that it doesn't really seem to be due to any big change, but rather a bunch of small ones. For example, I have noticed that Fox's Nair seems to have a bit more knockback on most characters than it used to (either that, or most characters I played against are slightly floatier). This really wrecks most of his SH combos across the stage. I noticed this most while playing against a Ganon... he would just jump out of things that used to actually work in Melee, like Nair > Utilt, etc.

I've also noticed that his shine affects characters differently (Zelda doesn't fall when shined, for example, and other characters go different distances), which just messes with his direct flow from Melee (not a terrible thing in itself)

His UpB is also somewhat harder to control...

Overall, I just think he got a few small nerfs, and everybody else got big buffs... Whereas he wasn't #1 in Melee by a huge margin, I can't imagine that he should actually be top tier in P:M....

That's just my $0.02

 

[GunBlaze]

I tend to agree that Fox is not all that special in P:M, and is only doing well in tournaments because of his prevalence.

Granted, I have very limited P:M experience, but from my side as a Melee fox player, a lot of his tricks and fun combos just don't work anymore... to the point where it's frustrating.

Thing I see is that it doesn't really seem to be due to any big change, but rather a bunch of small ones. For example, I have noticed that Fox's Nair seems to have a bit more knockback on most characters than it used to (either that, or most characters I played against are slightly floatier). This really wrecks most of his SH combos across the stage. I noticed this most while playing against a Ganon... he would just jump out of things that used to actually work in Melee, like Nair > Utilt, etc.

I've also noticed that his shine affects characters differently (Zelda doesn't fall when shined, for example, and other characters go different distances), which just messes with his direct flow from Melee (not a terrible thing in itself)

His UpB is also somewhat harder to control...

Overall, I just think he got a few small nerfs, and everybody else got big buffs... Whereas he wasn't #1 in Melee by a huge margin, I can't imagine that he should actually be top tier in P:M....

That's just my $0.02

The only nerfs Fox has are the lasers dealing less damage the farther they travel, and no invincibility on Shine. And the waveshine infinite being removed.

 

[jtm94]

He still did lose some stuff to the new physics engine and "slight" frame delays.
IT is ever so slight imo. I've played against Melee foxes and more than one have told me he's easier to use in PM, like short hop double laser. And it is still possible to do ridiculous things like dair into shine combos, and waveshining. It isn't really that he is exceedingly broken, but a lot of his meta is all figured out and that gives him an edge imo as the people who pick him up or play him are highly tech-skilled.

 

[Hylian]

I'm not really sure what tournaments I'll be at in the near future (or even what tournaments are happening), but I'd be down to money match you whenever the opportunity arises. I would only want to do $50 if I had time leading up to the tournament to get into practice, but I would do at least $20 regardless of how prepared I am.

Sounds good to me.

 

[DMG]

OH SNAP

Is this gonna be some hype IC's vs Lucas?

 

[Rᴏb]

People think Fox was nerfed to hell because all of the other characters are better now and are actually being played. He's probably better in PM simply because of his sliding upsmash.
I for one welcome some more Fox nerfs.

As for Olimar, I don't know what the PMBR were thinking when they made him. The differences between his Pikmin is a cool concept but it definitely wasn't carried out in the correct way. His pluck being slowed down was a needless nerf and pretty much ensures that he never gets to utilize his invincibility for anything other than plucking. His recovery is absolute garbage. I think most recoveries in this game are way too good, but Olimar is the exception. He can't recover high because pluck doesn't have a hitbox (unlike Ivy's dair) and he can't recover normally because the pop up from his tether will make him miss the edge 50% of the time. He HAS to recover low which makes him really easy to gimp, and the less Pikmin he has the easier this becomes. If I were to place Olimar on a tierlist he would definitely be in the bottom 5.

 

[Ripple]

if pikmin pluck cooldown was sped up, I almost guarantee that would be enough to shoot him up into mid tier.

which I would be more than happy with

 

[Soft Serve]

Okay so I put some thought into tiers durring/after apex and here is what I've decided on for now. My listing is based mostly upon the characters ability to win the neutral game, ie what movement tools or projectile or approach mix-ups they have, how their risk-reward balance is set, and how the punish game is skewed for/against them due to their kit or character traits. I named my groupings to avoid calling anyone a low tier, because honestly every character name a few have the capacity to do very well and go far in events.

This is my first serious tier list since 2.1 I believe, so feel free to critique and disagree. I want to hear other peoples options of characters.

to start it off:

God tier.
1: fox/falco. I don't really want to explain my placement of the melee spacies. its pretty generally excepted that they are very very strong characters that have incredible options to win the neutral game, be it greater mobility, a lock-down projectile, or just the potential ability to approach with frame-safe options on shield. Risk-reward for them is less of a risk of the actual options they possess, like most characters, and is instead mostly a risk of the player messing up and getting punished. They punish and get punished really hard, they are the spacies we all know and love.

3: sheilda/sheik. I put sheilda slightly above sheik (whether you believe it should exist or not) just because I get anal sometimes and it was more of a completion thing. Placement of sheik really depends on how you think the few changes that were made to her change her playstyle, ie d-throw/b-throw mixups instead of free re-grabs. Personally, I think in general sheik trades the free combo for more options such as a crawl and a wall cling, which help with the larger amount of projectiles in PM as well as the fact that onstage edge-guarding isnt as strong. PM sheik has to play differently than melee sheik imo, she still has the potential to stalemate the neutral against pretty much everyone, as well as the combo game and gimp game to take stocks off one or two mistakes. However, now on-stage gimping, other than needles, are not as strong as in melee due to the generally buffed recovery. Going off stage, sheik still has all the tools needed to edgeguard most of the cast before they can get in range for tethers and the like. Risk-reward is in her favor, she doesn't have to risk much to pressure the opponent, and while she doesn't have a true approach I feel the punish game is something sheik excels at.

4 Metaknight. I think meta is a fantastic character. Most of what applies to sheik applies to MK, minus needles. His downthrow and nair alone would make him high tier in my opinion. He has fast tilts, strong arials, incredible juggling, as well as a good kill game to finish off his strong combo and tech chace options. His back air and good recovery allows him to challenge recoveries in the way that DDD or jigglypuff can. Getting easy gimp with good timed bairs and nairs is easy to setup with his amazing d-throw. A versatile, although slightly limited, recovery tops off his abilities. AND THAT DASH DANCE. Honestly if you just play him like he is a sheik with better recovery he is a top tier threat. His pressure game isn't fantastic, but he doesn't really lose the neutral game to anyone in particular. risk/reward is skewed in his favor in most matchups, as he isn't super easy to combo or gimp and in return juggles and punishes most of the cast very well.

High-Top tier: (sketchers tier)

5: wolf. Wolf is a spacie, and therefor is good. But actually, Wolf has an amazing kit, strong spacing, good edge guarding with bairs, great pressure and combo game, and strong killing moves that can be comboed into. Not to mention a fantastic blaster that allows for unique set ups, like having two lasers layed on top of each other with a wolf right behind him. He doesn't dominate the neutral game quite as hard as fox/falco can, because his blaster is slower, requires a 10 frame commitment to maneuver around with it, and his pressure game has holes in it. But he still has great control if it. His risk/reward balance, well he has a shine.

6: mario. Mario is fantastic in pretty much all aspects of the game. Incredible projectile, combo game, recovery, gimping, he has it all imo. What he lacks is only in his short hop height and his stubby arms. While he can get out ranged/prioritized, his fireballs can stuff most approaches as well as create opening for him to get in. He does get combo'd and killed fairly easy, and while his recovery is really far-distanced, without a wall it is very predictable and intercept-able. I think he is very solid, having the ability to compete well in the neutral game, have low risk/ non-committal options that net high rewards, as well as a crazy good punish game with his grabs and outright killing power from his smashes.

7:lucas. Lucas is top tier material. He his highly technical, with a fantastic neutral game and pressure game. PKF puts many characters in horrible positions, Ie getting hit, shielding, or giving up stage control through dashing away or jumping. I think as he gets developed more he will stabilize as a top character. While if his pressure and approaches are susceptible to SDI and CC if they only approach with magnet > nair/dair, options such has sh.magnet into DJC fade away fairs still hits the shield, is safe, and if the fair connects its a free tech chase or combo. His recovery is also strong until he gets forced into using PKthunder. His tether is hard to challenge, he can magnet stall to gain massive horizontal distance without even double jumping, and thus he keeps all of his options to get back on stage intact to deal with the opponent. His pkf, great pressure game, and good hit confirms give him a space in top tier on my list.

8: Diddy. Now while some of this is probably bias, I think the monkey is a top 8 character. his two projectiles allow him to control the neutral game very well and control the pace of the match, in a way similar to what peach and jiggs do in the melee top-8. He has a great punish game with side-b and bananas, strong smashes, and very easy juggles. He also has a multitude of options to approach with and control the stage with tricky set ups. AGTs open up immense windows of creativity and movement. He also gets obscene distance on his recovery, and has multiple ways to relieve pressure, such as up-b OoS, banana glide toss down (free trip) or to either side, as well as nair OoS and as an anti-air.Where he lacks is a great grab game and edge guarding game.

top tier

9: peach and wario. I tied peach and wario at 9. Peach is still melee peach, and enjoys the slightly slower pace of the game, allowing her to get turnips without getting pressured to hard. While turnips are slightly different (throw angles are a bit different, clanking with a turnip or swatting them away with a move removed the hitbox unlike in melee) they still serve the same purpose of stage control and edge guarding material, also giving her another OoS option through glide tossing. She also still has her float options, trades favorably with nair against most of the cast, and still has down smash. On top of this, The improved ledge jump finally gives peach a very good option to get off the ledge, where previously she had to hang out and either get a good roll/stand up opportunity, or just hope to recover high. She has the tools to contest most of the new casts recovery before they get to the ledge, using turnips and floats, and thus edge guards the cast very well.
Wario, while I'm not exactly familiar with his every nuance, has incredible spacing tools as well as a strong combo game and punish options. His aeral mobility, along with his overall kit, makes him hard to deal with and strong at weaving and punishing. He risks a bit more than most top-tier characters, but gets just as much or even more out of his options.

11: Pit and Lucario. Pit is a good character with all the tools he needs to control a match. Between his great arrows, aerials, and tech chases, as well as good match-ups against spacies and characters with predictable recoveries, he is a very solid pick. I feel Armada has shown where pits potential truly lies in his ability to combo, chase, and gimp most of the cast. Lucario is someone I was skeptical about after his nerfs a few patches ago. However after re-considering what he can do, and watching lucarios play at apex, I think he is a top contender for a high tier spot. Fast, creative combos with use of his super meter rack up percent very fast, which also allows him to use more meter and link to his good kill options. I think once his weird options like aura sphere canceling and continuing combo strings with up-b to finisher are fully fleshed out he will again be a terror in the meta.


after this point I'll stop arranging them completely by number and group them into simple tiers where I feel they have roughly even ability to compete well.
lower-top tier (13-18)
Marth, Roy, ZSS, Ike, Link, and R.O.B.
I feel these characters all have the ability to win the neutral game through movement, projectiles, or simple range. They might lack the pressure game of other characters, or have more high risk high reward options than others, or aren't as good in the punish game. Still overall solid characters.

High tier (19-25)
Snake, I.C.'s, Yo****, Samus, Ivy, Sanic, and Jiggs
This group is very similar to the one above it, however I feel they as a whole lack the ability to control the neutral game as well. Those that do have great control, such has samus ivy and jiggs, tend to lack expansive options to relieve pressure or die very fast. They all have the capacity to take stocks quickly and efficiently, just have less opportunities to do so.

Mid tier A(26-32)
Pika, GnW, DDD, Booser, Tink, D.K., C.F.
This group I placed lower because I felt they lack even more options in the neutral game. They all, for the most part, lack a strong approach option or heavy zoning tools. They are either very immoble, or are hyper mobile like Pika, tink and falcon, but still have troubles forcing the issue of approaching. They are certainly not bad in that they all have obscene punish games, for example DDD, Bowser and DK can all take a stock off of one or two slip-ups. The main exeption to this is Tink, who has a crazy zoning game but doesn't convert too much off of it. They for the most part just lack some of the tools needed to win the neutral game.

Mid tier B (33-38)
Mewtwo, Kirby, Luigi, zelda, olimar, and charizard.
This group as a lot of the same problems as the previous group, except they are less mobile or don't punish nearly as hard. In general they have to play safe as they can't always reliably approach, and be 100% optimal at punishing every mistake the opponent makes to take stocks. Not all of them actually dislike the ability to approach, such as zelda and olimar, the first enjoying the fact that the opponent has to come to her, and the second enjoying the fact that it allows him to harvest his flowered pikmin, drastically increasing his shffl game and punish options.

Mid tier C(39-41)
Ganon, Ness, and squitle.
these three have some drastically different problems, but they all pretty much funnel down to one aspect, and that is that they crumble under the pressure that most characters bring to the neutral game. Ness and Ganon without a doubt have obscene punish games and take stocks quite quicky, the main issue being that they can't always set up that situation. Ganon has to be really precise with his fair spacing, shield grabs, and side-b usage to get the most out of the situation. Ness doesn't get much off of anything thats not a grab, and his main spacing tool, fair, only links into a grab with poor DI or at low percents. Squirtle, while he has fantastic mobility, gimping, and punish game, feels like that is pretty much all he is to me. He has no real approach, his aerials are too small to space properly, and side-b either gets grabbed or doesn't convert to much. He has a stellar grab game in my opinion, but he just lacks the presence in the neutral game to do anything. Shellshifting and wave bounce momentum shenanigans don't really cut it imo, which is sad, because you'd like the love child of luigi and jigglypuff would be fantastic.


Now, back to pokemon showdown I go.

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

A few things:
pikachu actually has a good approach
luigi is nowhere near as bad as olimar
you misspelled yoshi
you are underrating marth
god and high top tier should be one tier, thats how close those guys are
one big weakness of fox is his really weak priority and ability to get destroyed in a trade. This along with light, easy to kill, chain grabbable, easy to combo, easy to gimp is why some people (alot actually) believe falco and maybe sheik are better than fox and fox is #3 in melee

 

[Hylian]

OH SNAP

Is this gonna be some hype IC's vs Lucas?

Nah it would be Link vs Lucas. Lucas is weird for IC's >_>.

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

People think Fox was nerfed to hell because all of the other characters are better now and are actually being played. He's probably better in PM simply because of his sliding upsmash.
I for one welcome some more Fox nerfs.

As for Olimar, I don't know what the PMBR were thinking when they made him. The differences between his Pikmin is a cool concept but it definitely wasn't carried out in the correct way. His pluck being slowed down was a needless nerf and pretty much ensures that he never gets to utilize his invincibility for anything other than plucking. His recovery is absolute garbage. I think most recoveries in this game are way too good, but Olimar is the exception. He can't recover high because pluck doesn't have a hitbox (unlike Ivy's dair) and he can't recover normally because the pop up from his tether will make him miss the edge 50% of the time. He HAS to recover low which makes him really easy to gimp, and the less Pikmin he has the easier this becomes. If I were to place Olimar on a tierlist he would definitely be in the bottom 5.

Hey

are you looking for a fight

 

[Hylian]

Hey

are you looking for a fight

Yep. You're lucky I've been busy till now but you can go troll some other site.

 

[NWRL]

If the PMBR should make any changes to the spacies, they should add in PAL changes and call it quits, that's an official melee build etc etc.

 

[Rᴏb]

Papa_stone, next time you should troll less cause I think you actually provide some worthwhile discussion.

And yeah, a few PAL changes for Fox (uair, usmash) is really all that is needed. BUT WOULD HE STILL BE #1???

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

yes

 

[Soft Serve]

A few things:
pikachu actually has a good approach
luigi is nowhere near as bad as olimar
you misspelled yoshi
you are underrating marth
god and high top tier should be one tier, thats how close those guys are
one big weakness of fox is his really weak priority and ability to get destroyed in a trade. This along with light, easy to kill, chain grabbable, easy to combo, easy to gimp is why some people (alot actually) believe falco and maybe sheik are better than fox and fox is #3 in melee

If you're referring to Pikachu's shffl'd approaching nair, then yes, I'll agree with you that pika does have a tool to approach, while is is mostly through the utility that pikachu gets from its insane mobility. and just to be clear, its easily intercepted, CC-able, and if shielded easily grabbed unless you do it really deep and cross up the shield, so its not the safest approach. Falcon can shffl nairs as well to the same effect, that doesn't mean he has a reliable means to approach.

I feel luigi and olimar suffer in the same way that they have zero approaches options that are safe or non-linear. I think luigi is is better than olimar, but still have the same problems so I grouped them in relatively the same spot.

I'm pretty sure Yoshi has a T in it.

I said marth was still in a completely solid grouping full of characters that could compete at high levels and win. I don't think he is a good as mario or lucas but he is still a strong character.

I think the distinction between god and high top tier is safeness in their ability to simply win the neutral game. While the line between MK and Wolf's abilities are a bit more hazy, I had to draw it somewhere because a cluttered first tier doesn't feel right to me and I felt that was a good place to put it. For all I know MK and wolf could be completely switched in positioning.

I noted Fox's weakness as that if he messes up he gets punished stupid hard. And It would be really believable if you left it at claiming falco was better than fox in melee, as that is actually something that is worth considering (although not for you reasoning, Falco gets hit just as hard as fox, if not harder, in every aspect you mentioned), but saying people think fox is below sheik is kinda ridiculous.

 

[NWRL]

Yeah Fox as #3 is hilarious, there's no way Falco is better than Fox purely because if you get Falco off stage he's dead 90% of the time