Tier List Speculation

[Nausicaa]

No way, don't listen to me! I don't have publicly view-able credentials, so any statement I make isn't acceptable if it has anything to do with meta-game or development in any form, no matter how universally applicable the details of my posts are.
Nothing I say is true. Including this paragraph.
DUN DUN DUUUUUN

In other news...
1) Razor Leaf looks very unprofessional. Nobody would design a game where if you do something, you can do it again and have nothing happen, just for the sake of having an experiential nuance for players to go 'oh, I have to time a wait period before firing again' because that's just silly.
2) It's been hinted that Lucario might be hurting in the neutral game, and doesn't gain enough from an Aura Charge to fully make up for it. Regardless, given the best thing he gets for having an AC is an amazing approach with Down-B, and it's going to see light in the form of Mewtwo's Up-B, maybe hit-boxes should grow when he has charges like in Brawl or something, just to make him more unique with AC playing a greater factor in his game. Or just more Grab range, because that's always sexy.
3) Zeika isn't quite fully functional to use as a combination character, and something to be done to allow Transform to really play a roll without being gimmicky would be the best change for this, given how it's kind of finicky and gimmicky as it currently is. It could take coding, but having a 'charge' for it in some way, that can be help, to allow for an instant-transform later, would be awesome. This could only be possible with something like a 'Game-pausing' function similar to Metaknights Final Smash, and in that time, the loading takes place, but this variation of Transform only happens when the charge is used.
4) Stop Pika from bouncing off ledges and going inside Stages. In the meantime, faster start-up on Up-B would be sexy, or fix the hurt-boxes, or add some invincibility to it or something...
5) Give a liiiiiittle more aerial control to Squirtle in the almost-tumble animation after connecting with the kill-sweet-spot of Aqua-Jet. Only maybe.


This game is probably perfect and doesn't need anything though.
Changes happen too fast.

Real* suggestion I have for the PMBR (and the reason I've turned down being part of it - *too passive)
1) Don't.
2) Do.
3) Anything.
4) *exceptions to 1/2/3 is bring in Mewtwo + Roy
5) *maybe fix some Stages and bring in better Stage Selection.



Edit: For disclaimer-sake.
I also think Sheik is 'kind of bleh' and only seems better to the general public because of meta-game development application details which are kind of obvious if people bothered paying attention to freaking anything ever.
I also think Fox is 'more meh' than the general public likes the believe. It's Fox, duh, but if you take something that wasn't quite Fox, and combine it with a bunch of stuff to make it more Fox, then how could Fox be the only Fox? (looks at Wario, Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Peach, DK, Diddy, Falcon... maybe not Ganon... rest of the cast, etc)

 

[Mew2King]

YOU are the one who attacked ME by saying that since I thought sheik wasn't good, and wolf was top tier, your response was "why would you listen to him?"

not the other way around

so ur wrong/dumb/rude

i never said it was infallible, I said you should consider what I'm saying. Stop putting words in my mouth. Idc what they think, because I'm still going to post what I think and then explain why (which I have given reasons for everything iirc, which is something many other people haven't done).

In other news, tbh, the way I see it, the melee pros are generally just much better in smash in general most of the time, and you made the character the same (as it should be to encourage them to enter the game), so they ALREADY have them closer to mastery than many other characters are to their mastery, 100% thanks to Melee skills being passed on. And I gave reasons why, which is that 100s/1000s of hours were already logged in on those characters, by established pros.

When I first played project M I thought falco was god-tier broken, and then as i played more I realized falco was just really really good, because I already understood how to play falco COMPLETELY, because of my 12 years of playing Melee and the character being almost identical. I have already played an almost identical character for 12 years. The more time passes on the more I realized that there are so many untapped characters, and that is what I was explaining. I made the choice to focus on the Melee characters because it would give me an INCREDIBLE starting position (high level of mastery already) for project M, so I invested into the characters. I started PM with the spacies and I invested into spacies a lot because I had already played them a lot in melee. Bowser is my favorite to play though cuz of edge guards and how satisfying it feels to get strong hits in.

 

[Nausicaa]

Reason doesn't apply to Tier List discussion, you're out of luck Mew2King.

 

[ItalianStallion]

I think it's kind of weird when the community tells the PMBR to not be active in the development of their game. PM is in its demo stages. Of course they are going to have updates where things change, They're going to do that until they reach a point where they are comfortable with what they've accomplished. It's a privilege for us to be able to test the game throughout its development. Not that I'm saying the PMBR are infallibleor never make bad decisions, but to tell them that they are too active in the development of their game that is being actively developed, isn't something beneficial to add to the discussion.

 

[Nausicaa]

Hence I'm a terrible candidate for developing the 'what' contents of a game, while on the forefront of 'how' in for the same reasons.
Freaking math and science and smash.

 

[Mew2King]

Hey does anyone know strengths and weaknesses of like, Rob/Marth/Lucas/Mario/Diddy/Ness?

stages/MUs/strats/tips/etc/anything? what to watch out for and how to counter it, stages to pick or ban, etc?

 

[HyperrCrow]

All I know is that when playing against Mario you want to avoid stages with straight walls like Castlevania, Green Hill and Yoshi's because they aid his recovery exponentially. As for stages to counterpick against Mario, I don't really know many, but I'd guess you'd want to avoid his fireball approach so somewhere with platforms.
You can also visit their individual boards and do some research from there on MU's and such.

 

[Hylian]

Lucas is susceptible to a lot of nasty grab combos, so characters that can grab him fairly easily do well against him as well as characters that can zone him well from mid-range like Link/Marth. You need to be wary of lucas's side-b as it lets him approach very safely if it hits he can combo off it from pretty far away and even dacus you out of it, but you can also just attack through it which is often better than shielding it. Lucas likes flat stages like FD that give him a lot of horizontal combo room and dislikes stages with a lot of slopes that can affect his DJCing.

Marios movement game is so good he's pretty solid against everyone, he probably does worst against shiek/marth/fox.

 

[Mew2King]

cool thx, anyone else got suggestions vs those chars?

 

[stingers]

against rob, you want to be above him as much as possible, his uair is almost useless so u can really abuse that aspect of his game

 

[Deleted member]

jayson

foxmastaNJ-007

you my nigga but

go to bed

 

[ItalianStallion]

Hey does anyone know strengths and weaknesses of like, Rob/Marth/Lucas/Mario/Diddy/Ness?

stages/MUs/strats/tips/etc/anything? what to watch out for and how to counter it, stages to pick or ban, etc?

Marth? You're like one of the Marth masters. He's a slightly better version of his Melee self, but he's basically the same character. Don't know why you would need info on his strengths and weaknesses.

As for advice against these characters, it would help if we knew who you were using against them. Fox? Sheik? Bowser?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

that confused me too. Marth is like, exactly the same as melee Marth. I think his dair having reduced landing lag is the only thing that's really been changed.

 

[Nguz95]

Ness gets shut down by literally any projectile. He really struggles against character like Melee's top 3 because they can out zone him and severely reduce his approach options. Also, Ness mains like to do funny stuff with Magnet. It looks cool, but it's relatively linear and only extends his movement by about one pk fire length. Also, if you just grab him he has a lot of trouble.

 

[DMG]

Um what

Ness shut down... by projectiles?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Um what

Ness shut down... by projectiles?

Yup, he sure can't absorb any of those.

 

[DMG]

I mean certain ones I can understand, like explosives and tangible projectiles, but he's a pretty short/non slow kind of guy. Projectiles are not the first thing that come to mind for a huge Ness weakness. Stuff like "hey come back here, Sheik you lamo" is what springs to mind.

 

[Mew2King]

im actually far better vs marth in melee/Brawl (like one of my best MUs in each game) than in PM, like tremendously, i know all the % specific things and stuff where in PM it feels TOTALLY different tbh.

i dont rly have a main but atm im prolly most interested in spacies/bowser. just watched GFs of kirk playing also this minute.

im rly hoping mewtwo's throw to edge guard game is strong in PM. I'm all about the grabs with him in melee, not as much about the taj-nairs which is the main thing that seems UBER buffed from before (and teleport cancels being better).

 

[KayB]

Hey does anyone know strengths and weaknesses of like, Rob/Marth/Lucas/Mario/Diddy/Ness?

stages/MUs/strats/tips/etc/anything? what to watch out for and how to counter it, stages to pick or ban, etc?

I actually haven't seen ANY talk of Diddy as of yet. Maybe because I haven't lurked around enough, but no one seems to be discussing that character in depth.

 

[ItalianStallion]

im rly hoping mewtwo's throw to edge guard game is strong in PM. I'm all about the grabs with him in melee, not as much about the taj-nairs which is the main thing that seems UBER buffed from before (and teleport cancels being better).

I never really thought TAJ used nair excessively. It was, sadly, Mewtwo's only good aerial in neutral, so many Melee Mewtwo mains would use it, but TAJ has always been more about spacing tilts and shadowballs to grabs more than anything else. Also, I fail to see how nair seems more buffed than any other move in his PM toolkit, save from up, down, and back throw which I think are exactly the same as Melee. But those throws didn't need to be buffed for his throw game to still be where he dominates in PM, at least from what I've gathered.

 

[Archangel]

This game is probably perfect and doesn't need anything though.
Changes happen too fast.

Real* suggestion I have for the PMBR (and the reason I've turned down being part of it - *too passive)
1) Don't.
2) Do.
3) Anything.
4) *exceptions to 1/2/3 is bring in Mewtwo + Roy
5) *maybe fix some Stages and bring in better Stage Selection.



Edit: For disclaimer-sake.
I also think Sheik is 'kind of bleh' and only seems better to the general public because of meta-game development application details which are kind of obvious if people bothered paying attention to freaking anything ever.
I also think Fox is 'more meh' than the general public likes the believe. It's Fox, duh, but if you take something that wasn't quite Fox, and combine it with a bunch of stuff to make it more Fox, then how could Fox be the only Fox? (looks at Wario, Mario, Luigi, Bowser, Peach, DK, Diddy, Falcon... maybe not Ganon... rest of the cast, etc)

I almost agree entirely with this. I still think some stand out not as good characters could stand some changes. Sonic was overnerfed, Lucario suffers too much in the neutral game as you've already mentioned. I also think Game and Watch feels too....not good. He's better than he was in melee by miles but he feels like....a very good Melee Link or DK which IMO isn't good enough. Aside from that...I don't think anything needs to happen aside from adding new characters to the game.

As for sheik, She's obviously worse but she's just going to have to deal/maybe learn to use Zelda to in some situations to throw people off? I mean, Very good Sheik players in the past 2 years have been taken out by character they were long thought to dominate. Falcon, Peach, Pikachu, Yoshi, Marth...etc. People are finding ways to beat her in Melee as she is. Now, when you consider everyone of them (Assuming Yoshi as well) is/will be buffed for the occasion then naturally you've got a less effective character vs a more effective cast. It's...like Mathematics pretty much. Still, I currently have Sheik top 10-ish. I'm not sure she can hold this position but for now I think she's a safe top 10 and that is good enough even if it's not great. Besides, if she ever became terrible tier(I doubt it) then you could simply change her throws....since everything is..ya know.."subject to change".

As for Fox, I think fox might be overall the best in the game....but it's questionable considering the baby steps that PM's Metagame is taking. People are under the impression that we've got the whole thing pushed to the max after like 5 or 6 months...and it's kinda silly to think that tbh. As M2K pointed out fox has a 12 year head start. Some characters have already given him a run for his Money and threaten his supremacy. Other characters who gave fox a hard time at times or went about even in melee are mostly unchanged or buffed. Pikachu, Falco, Puff, Peach, IC's, Luigi, Sheik, Samus, Doc(Mario), and Marth come to mind. The rest of the cast was not good enough by a far margin or rarely put up a fight. (Zelda, Bowser, Ness, G&W, Ganon, Mewtwo, Roy, Kirby, DK, Yoshi, Link, young link,...etc. Now some of these characters are already buffed/unchanged enough to the point where they can beat Fox, it's been shown to be doable. Even with some adjusting to the MU's with Fox they've still had trouble or lost to these characters and the ones that have yet to be added to the game are going to be significantly improved compared to their melee incarnations. Then, you throw in the wildcards from brawl.(Metaknight, Wario, Charizard, Pit, Squirtle, Lucario, Ivy, Snake, Sonic, Lucas, Wolf, Tink, Ike, Rob, Diddy, King DDD, ZZS, and Olimar(yet to be added). The brawl characters I see as the younger brothers of this game because they are the least familiar in a melee type setting but I've already seen things like "Metaknight the spacie slayer" or Pit/Rob are such hard counters to spacies that it makes me wonder...how long will the TOO GOOD glow linger on fox. IMO it's already off falco. I don't expect falco to win national/international tournaments anymore. I'll say that openly. It's a matter of recoveries and his is horrible in a game where 50% of the cast recovers like jigglypuff.

All this to say, yeah don't touch anything, at least not in terms of nerfs. Let the game roll on for about at least a year beyond it's current point and I am pretty sure we'll have much better insight by then. I''ve got a good feeling about Apex 2014.

 

[Rat]

So what characters beat wolf and how'

and what are all the best strats to beat him

and the main things to look out for, counter, and how to counter them?

Fox and MK have been the two hardest match-ups.
Marth's been pretty rough too.

With MK, dthrow tech chase till he's off stage. Run off, DJ Nair in the space he wants to sideB through. (You'll figure out stronger stuff.) Also his NAir beats most of wolf's moves. Running Dtilt into tech chase.

With Fox, any grab at 0% will give 2-3 Usmash into an edgeguard. Fox dictates the match with Nairs/Bairs. Very few of wolf's moves can challenge Foxes aerials.

Marth just does his Melee game. :S

 

[Nguz95]

Yup, he sure can't absorb any of those.

If you absorb something you experience a 20 frame absorption lag. You can't just absorb stuff and expect it to be ok. If you are absorbing Falco's lasers he's going to jump you really hard because you'll be stuck in absorption lag. Needles go right through his magnet I believe. Wolf's lasers can lock you into lag as well. On the Ness boards there was talk about Charizard being able to freeze you in absorption lag for as long as he kept breathing fire. Projectiles give Ness a hard time.

 

[standardtoaster]

you aren't trapped in absorb lag by repeated hits since 2.6b

 

[Nguz95]

you aren't trapped in absorb lag by repeated hits since 2.6b

Sweet! That sounds excellent. My fault for spreading around outdated information.

 

[Professor Pro]

It doesn't feel fair for a lower skilled player to make judgements about the game when it has reached the advanced levels of M2K.

I agree with this, I will follow everything that M2K says about Wolf, and if a higher level player like Armada comes and has a different opinion I will have no choice but to follow him

Thought and reasoning is invalid guys, this is sort of like 'Follow the leader'

 

[Juushichi]

I agree with this, I will follow everything that M2K says about Wolf, and if a higher level player like Armada comes and has a different opinion I will have no choice but to follow him

Thought and reasoning is invalid guys, this is sort of like 'Follow the leader'

Am I supposed to believe you about Snake, Prof?

 

[Professor Pro]

Am I supposed to believe you about Snake, Prof?

Yes, until a higher level player comes and disagrees. That's how this works.

 

[Nausicaa]

Oh, so THAT'S why you mis-interpret 50% of what I say and that ask for vids... lol

 

[trash?]

I can only assume your ability to understand sarcasm is as questionable as your ability to make a reasonable point

 

[GHNeko]

Oh, so THAT'S why you mis-interpret 50% of what I say and that ask for vids... lol

This post can't be serious.

You're making it harder for people to take your posts seriously.

Also can we please get back on topic.

Sent from my SGH-T699 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Plum]

But if Nausicaa posts vids and he is better than Prof Pro we will have to believe every word that comes out of his mouth.
S'how it works dawg.

This post can't be serious.

You're making it harder for people to take your posts seriously.

Also can we please get back on topic.

Sent from my SGH-T699 using Tapatalk 2

 

[GHNeko]

I'm being entirely serious about the getting back on topic thing.

Sent from my SGH-T699 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Nausicaa]

I was TOTALLY being serious about my posts too.
Like tooootally.

On-Topic: I'm the only person with an On-Topic post in the last couple pages.
Nobody else answered the very direct question...

Which characters ACTUALLY need buffs/nerfs?

 

[AbstractLogic]

I think the correct answer to all of this is to ride MY ****. I predicted like 92% of everything that ever happened in P:M ever and even predicted Kirk winning BH3 as well as 3 other prominent leelue peso placed bets that came true. Plus I own a Wii

PLEASE put this guy in the PMBR

 

[Armada]

and we declined armada for similar reasons.

I can't even remember I have even asked about being included.
Have a Wii now but no PM but not really feeling for being in the BR anyway because of other reasons atm

 

[Burnsy]

Nobody else answered the very direct question...


Which characters ACTUALLY need buffs/nerfs?

Buff Toon Link and Luigi pls

 

[Oro?!]

Marth is pretty good vs Wolf, but he is heavier than Fox/Falco and the CG doesn't start at 0. It starts around 7-10% if they DI in front of you, and 13% if they DI behind you. The neutral game, however, is much easier than dealing with Fox/Falco. Wolf's lasers being clankable certainly does not help his case. The biggest difference I feel vs Wolf instead of Falco, is that there is basically no point to jumping over low lasers. If you try to swing in the air at lasers or in a zone to wall out Wolf, he has so many burst movement options like DACUS/FSmash/Flash that all win vs opponents right above wolf. Wolf is exceptionally strong in that situation so just jab/dtilt/PS lasers that are low. High lasers are susceptible to dash attack, much like Falco, so use that to your advantage. Wolf's laser game suffers a lot more than Falco for another crucial reason. Wolf is forced to waveland and suffer 10 frames of lag versus Falco/Fox having only 4 frames of land lag on laser.

Aside from the laser game, Wolf really only has a couple of good approaches. His dash attack being his strongest option imo. Dash attack has follow ups on a majority of characters at a majority of percents (im not exaggerating). It's basically Sheik dash attack on roids. It hits decently far in front of Wolf, and extends well above his head to be a decent anti air. Dash attack has a relatively low recovery time, so there are times where Wolf can feasibly shine before you can grab DA. Wolf's nair is both amazing and terrible at the same time. Much like Brawl, it doesn't have the best hitboxes and loses to a majority of moves. It will lose to any marth sword swing obviously. At low %s, Wolf Nair->Shine is CCable, while Dair-> causes knockdown if you try to CC. Nair also scales is what it can combo into as your opponents % rises. At low % only shine is a possible follow up. At mid %s, and based on character, nair->grab becomes a guaranteed combo. Lastly, at high %s you are able to Nair->Dsmash as a true combo. The % range for all of those things depends entirely on character weight I believe. Fair has a pretty big hitbox, and is also Wolf's primary kill move it seems. You can SH autocancel Fair much like Brawl as well.

The biggest mistake I see when people try to edgeguard wolf, is the way they challenge Flash. It will be Wolf's primary recovery option 80% of the time due to how safe it is instead of upB. All you have to do is grab the ledge. Wolf's ranges for flash going to stage are similar to Brawl, as is it's land lag. There are moves that can beat Flash, but it's generally moves with lingering hitboxes. MK nair/Sheik Nair are what I've had the most success with, but there are likely others. UpB can be reacted to much like Fox/Falco. The difference between Firefox and Wolf upB is that Wolf's foot sticks above the ledge when he is trying to sweetspot from below (think Falcon/Ganon upB in Melee). Marth can always dtilt/counter/fsmash his foot.

 

[Nausicaa]

Buff Luigi pls

What, How, and Why?

 

[Giygacoal]

Buff Lucario please. He's just not reliable enough. He doesn't even need much more. Maybe a better fair so he has either better spacing defense or more than ~2 approach options when not charged. Not sure exactly how fair could specifically be changed, but it seems the most free of every move he has.