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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
yeah it's... not difficult. at all. like the mid-air tricks you can do CAN BE difficult, but it's literally just "air dodge near a waddle dee"
also speaking of which, can we non-randomize what comes out of side-b? trying to do specific off-stage tricks and getting a gordo because RNG hates me is obnoxious as hell
also speaking of which, can we non-randomize what comes out of side-b? trying to do specific off-stage tricks and getting a gordo because RNG hates me is obnoxious as hell
metroid1117
Smash Master
Realistically, with so many characters and wide spreads of "niches" that they fall under, I think it'd be extremely hard to design and tweak characters to the point where if they're played at their fullest potential, all of them can win tournaments going solo. For example, although Ike has problems with Sheik and possibly more match-ups which I lack experience in, I think he's so well-designed that at this point, he won't be needing any drastic changes in the near future.
lol
Dedede is baller like that. RNG could be amazing for you, or kill you.
Have you ever seen/tried the Battle Troll re-texture of him? Super-Troll mode. His Hammer has about another Jab worth of range on it. So baller.
DMG, by whatever you were talking about in the Luigi post, it seems like you didn't understand anything I posted at all, and missed the whole point, and have no idea what Luigi does (like most it seems).
Why the emphasis on Pivots and DD's as the bait and core? Those are the actions after WD's, sure, but there's no mention of playing without WD, that's like saying Marth playing without WD is worse. Like duh.
Same with CCing. It's more dangerous to CC Luigi than most for the reason that he WILL knock you down or Grab you regardless of you CCing or not. That's like saying you can CC some Marth stuff if the Marth plays like 2007 meta-game style and doesn't go for Grabs or ranged pokes.
Your post was almost entirely irrelevant to what makes Luigi good or bad, because of these types of things. WD is an amazing tool, and a massive part of his game, and advantageous dynamic thing to use in Neutral, but to say that it's the be-all end-all of what makes Luigi work, or that he's terrible without using it at all, are points that don't mean a THING, at all.
I'd like to know what you mean by 'viable' too Hylian. Others as well. In a game where every character is solid, and 'viable', having them all at a point where they could win a tournament is very possible (a lot will always rely on Brackets), but having them all at a point where they won't have 'something' that could stop them/make them switch out for a CP, is ridiculously tricky.
Dedede is baller like that. RNG could be amazing for you, or kill you.
Have you ever seen/tried the Battle Troll re-texture of him? Super-Troll mode. His Hammer has about another Jab worth of range on it. So baller.
DMG, by whatever you were talking about in the Luigi post, it seems like you didn't understand anything I posted at all, and missed the whole point, and have no idea what Luigi does (like most it seems).
Why the emphasis on Pivots and DD's as the bait and core? Those are the actions after WD's, sure, but there's no mention of playing without WD, that's like saying Marth playing without WD is worse. Like duh.
Same with CCing. It's more dangerous to CC Luigi than most for the reason that he WILL knock you down or Grab you regardless of you CCing or not. That's like saying you can CC some Marth stuff if the Marth plays like 2007 meta-game style and doesn't go for Grabs or ranged pokes.
Your post was almost entirely irrelevant to what makes Luigi good or bad, because of these types of things. WD is an amazing tool, and a massive part of his game, and advantageous dynamic thing to use in Neutral, but to say that it's the be-all end-all of what makes Luigi work, or that he's terrible without using it at all, are points that don't mean a THING, at all.
I'd like to know what you mean by 'viable' too Hylian. Others as well. In a game where every character is solid, and 'viable', having them all at a point where they could win a tournament is very possible (a lot will always rely on Brackets), but having them all at a point where they won't have 'something' that could stop them/make them switch out for a CP, is ridiculously tricky.
"WD is NOT core of the character's Neutral game, it's simply another tool he has."
"WD is an amazing tool, and a massive part of his game"
The whole point where I said have a Luigi try to win without wavedashing, was in reponse to your claim that it wasn't a core aspect of his gameplay. That stuff like DD/Usmash/pivot whatever jazz hands was already really good. He needs the help of his WD to enhance his gameplay and make it passable, because he's an otherwise slow character who excels in the fray. There are drawbacks to this though, that you can't totally get around or mask with those other tools. I mean, if Luigi is consistently grabbing people and outspacing/outsmarting them by stopping his momentum with pivot smashes and hard ass reads, then yeah I guess he can do what is needed to win his MU's.
I don't know what else to say. You have a different and much higher opinion about Luigi. I think we can leave it at that. I will have to say though, I prefered the version of you that said we're all learning and naive about the game, and to think outside the box, instead of "everyone's got it wrong but me". Maybe this time, you're the one who's missing out because you're absolutely sold on this Luigi potential. But hey, the game is young. Not like we can really "know" anything at this point right?
"WD is an amazing tool, and a massive part of his game"
The whole point where I said have a Luigi try to win without wavedashing, was in reponse to your claim that it wasn't a core aspect of his gameplay. That stuff like DD/Usmash/pivot whatever jazz hands was already really good. He needs the help of his WD to enhance his gameplay and make it passable, because he's an otherwise slow character who excels in the fray. There are drawbacks to this though, that you can't totally get around or mask with those other tools. I mean, if Luigi is consistently grabbing people and outspacing/outsmarting them by stopping his momentum with pivot smashes and hard ass reads, then yeah I guess he can do what is needed to win his MU's.
I don't know what else to say. You have a different and much higher opinion about Luigi. I think we can leave it at that. I will have to say though, I prefered the version of you that said we're all learning and naive about the game, and to think outside the box, instead of "everyone's got it wrong but me". Maybe this time, you're the one who's missing out because you're absolutely sold on this Luigi potential. But hey, the game is young. Not like we can really "know" anything at this point right?
It's not the core of his Neutral, it's just an amazing tool that helps him a lot.
I hope that's not confusing you. haha
Edit: Again, this might help.
Think of how Marth uses DD and WD in the Neutral game.
WD is no more core to Luigi than it is Marth.
If that's too difficult to understand the application of, then there is much to learn about Luigi.
I hope that's not confusing you. haha
Edit: Again, this might help.
Think of how Marth uses DD and WD in the Neutral game.
WD is no more core to Luigi than it is Marth.
If that's too difficult to understand the application of, then there is much to learn about Luigi.
I think my avatar perfectly reflects my viewpoints on this discussion.
10lagboards
In other news.
This refined into...
... This.
1) Ivy is apparently considered silly by all, and I'm sure it will change.
2) Lucario, is he fine? I would LOVE more distinction between having AC and not, so focus on making this a greater significance on his game would be very unique and niche, while keeping him functional as he is (weak in general, hits hard when connecting and increasingly with more hits)
3) Seriously... Down-B pausing the game for loading-time mechanic... for better access to Shielda play without breaking the silly Transforming thing.
4) That Up-B...
5) Other little things maybe
What else yaw?
EDIT!!!
Who do you consider to be the Top 5 characters in the game, excluding Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Jigglypuff, and Ivysaur
GO
This refined into...
... This.
1) Ivy is apparently considered silly by all, and I'm sure it will change.
2) Lucario, is he fine? I would LOVE more distinction between having AC and not, so focus on making this a greater significance on his game would be very unique and niche, while keeping him functional as he is (weak in general, hits hard when connecting and increasingly with more hits)
3) Seriously... Down-B pausing the game for loading-time mechanic... for better access to Shielda play without breaking the silly Transforming thing.
4) That Up-B...
5) Other little things maybe
What else yaw?
WHO ISN'T IN THE FINE TIER?!?!?!?
EDIT!!!
Who do you consider to be the Top 5 characters in the game, excluding Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Jigglypuff, and Ivysaur
GO
Archangel
Smash Hero
Wolf, Wario, Mario, Pit, Lucas and snake is tied with someone somewhere in there.
I'm going to offset Nausicaa's use of huge font size with my tiny letters.
Nemiak temp
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2013
- Messages
- 178
Soooo why does everyone think Ivy is so good? (Things like bair and razor leaf are crazy good but I don't think she is top tier or even close for that matter). She's good at camping and walling but that's just about it. Edgegaurds are pretty free for her against a good amount of the cast and her recovery is pretty good but once another person is "in" against her she's a pretty cooked plant.
Nemiak temp
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2013
- Messages
- 178
Soooo why does everyone think Ivy is so good? (Things like bair and razor leaf are crazy good but I don't think she is top tier or even close for that matter). She's good at camping and walling but that's just about it. Edgegaurds are pretty free for her against a good amount of the cast and her recovery is pretty good but once another person is "in" against her she's a pretty cooked plant.
My bad about the double post guys.
Wow such font size.
My bad about the double post guys.
Wow such font size.
NeonApophis
Smash Apprentice
Obviously Wolf's mobility and fall speed don't let him completely avoid getting combo'd by Marth, but I don't see how you can claim that it doesn't help at all. There's already the concrete example of not getting uthrow chain grabbed at 0%, so we know that it helps in some situations. Generally however, Marth's combo game on spacies is more nuanced than you seem to recognize. When Marth is juggling a space animal, he still has to read your DI and select a good option in order to continue the combo, and there are sometimes situations where you are able to DI far enough away that Marth cannot hit you before you land on the ground and have your tech options available. Since Wolf can move farther away during his time in the air and get to the ground faster, he is marginally better at getting out of Marth's combos. Note that when I say this, I'm not just theory crafting. I main spacies in Melee and play against Tai pretty frequently, so I'm familiar with how they get combo'd by Marth. I didn't notice that Wolf was better at getting out of combos until I started playing him against Tai and other good players, and saw that Wolf is harder to continue combos on because of how quickly he gets back to the ground.
Laying multiple shots and wavedashing back after each one pretty much resolves this as I explained in my last post. If Marth does manage to reflect the first shot with a powershield, it just clanks with the second while Wolf is already out of Marth's range and ready to move or punish Marth if possible.
Wolf can airdodge to the ground out of his blaster once the shot comes out, so he can actually do movement options (i.e. wavedashing or actually airdodging if you have some reason for that) sooner out of his laser than Falco can. Falco might be a little faster if you count Wolf's wavedash time as lag, but even then it's not a big difference, and the benefits from being able to airdodge out of the endlag of Wolf's blaster make up for the lag not being cancelled when he lands normally. The thing that really makes Falco's lasers better is that they travel much farther and more quickly, which make them better for forcing approaches and interrupting your opponent's actions.
You shouldn't Fsmash Marth's shield in the first place, but even then if you're close enough when you start the Fsmash you'll end up behind Marth and he won't be able to just shield grab (but dair or WD OOS to something quick are still decent punish options, hence why you don't want Fsmash Marth's shield). The point I made is that you can stay outside of Marth's range, and if he is ever vulnerable, you can Fsmash him. This is especially useful when Marth is recovering, since you can just stand a short distance from the ledge, and the kill Marth with Fsmash if he doesn't sweetspot his up b. Fsmash isn't a cure all or anything, but it is very helpful to have a fast move that will hit Marth from outside the range of any of his attacks. My last post is just meant to show that Wolf does better against Marth than the other spacies, and Wolf's Fsmash gives him an advantage that Fox and Falco don't have (literally all of your criticisms of Wolf's Fsmash apply much more to Fox's and Falco's Fsmash).
I have no idea what you're referring to when you mention "worse sweetspotting," and I seriously doubt that it balances out Wolf's Flash and drastically superior up b. I get the impression you haven't played much spacies vs Marth, since the biggest issue with their recovery is that Marth can just hop off stage and gimp them with fair or something if they end up below the stage and have to up b. Wolf's up b starts way more quickly, so he's not nearly as susceptible to this sort of gimp. He also has a larger window to side b than the other spacies, since it can be angled upward.
I'm comparing Wolf to the other spacies since we already have a pretty good idea of how they work against Marth due to the years of Melee metagame development. Wolf obviously hasn't developed nearly as far as Fox or Falco, but if he has better tools for dealing with Marth, and Fox and Falco have an edge on Marth (Fox definitely does, Falco probably also does but that might be close to 50-50), then it makes sense to expect Wolf to beat Marth once people learn how to play him properly.
Oh this. Alright:
1. Wolf's ability to get out of stuff better than Fox/Falco is marginally better. I think it's a factor barely worth mentioning against Marth specifically, but sure we'll list that.
2. Wolf's blaster game is almost wholly worse than Falco in many ways. Wavedashing out of it just means less time for anything and yes I would totally count that as undesirable lag when I could be doing something more productive, like shooting another laser by then or attacking or even the rare shielding. I mean, the alternative is to not wavedash afterwards and still suffer your blaster endlag. You also can't hugely adjust when you shoot the laser out of a SH and still be able to wavedash (timing isn't instant after the laser shoots iirc, so you need to do it fairly soon in your hop). Wolf can't as effectively do delayed lasers while being nearly as safe, which leads to a pretty repetitive timing if he wants to shoot one in a SH. The fact that you *can* clank and eat through them with attacks is a pretty negative con, I mean I guess this will never come into play if you have enough time and space to shoot 2 lasers back to back, with a WD backwards for each one, because surely the other guy is more committed during this time period. By the time he knows what's up, he's getting Fsmash lunged by Wolf or somehow might be pressured for considering to PS a laser anytime on stage. (I've never thought very highly of his blaster, but then again when I'm playing vs Spacies I'm usually a fast and awesome character. His laser game might apply more and impress me more if I were trying to main Peach or slowpoke x)
3, Wolf's Fsmash is definitely better than the other 2. That's not in dispute. But it seems a little hard to mesh together both the aggro frame safety/pressure up close, and being at the magical spacing where you can punish a lot of Marth's stuff with Fsmash/DACUS. Being able to punish things with it is nice, but a bit situational. Outside of Marth's own range/beyond tipper Fsmash range, it's hard to imagine compelling mistakes from him. It's not "well he whiffed Fair so I always get him with Cstick right". The recovery point is valid, but you may find better success trying to pressure him with something else (blaster as he's offstage and falling, maybe go out and Bair, etc) and then using Dsmash as he Upb's to the stage or is trying to come back on. Small note as well: if you hit someone with the starting hitbox/es of Wolf's Fsmash, people can SDI or sometimes DI those up and avoid the later strong hitbox. If you're spaced good enough in the moment that you only hit with the end, then it doesn't come into play obv. Still something kind of annoying for him to deal with though, dunno if they have a better way of connecting them together.
4. Wolf has a harder time sweetspotting on Upb, because his foot sticks out. With Side B, the angles you have to come at to try and sweetspot are much harder than the straight line Fox and Falco get, especially if you factor in Side B cancels. He has a trickier recovery, but it's not totally better in all regards to them. Flash is really good though and is definitely the hardest move to account for PRIMARILY if he's close enough to also land onstage with it. If he's further out, then he's not much better than them at it.
5.Wolf lacks some of the things that give the other Spacies the advantage vs Marth. If he operated extremely similar and was just as dominant in neutral, then yes it would make sense to assume he will do that good. But he has a mix of some aspects that are cool and unique (Nair for example), while also having inferior aspects mixed in (for Nair, the lesser range/non sex kick part comes back to haunt him sometimes). Wolf has an extensive and elaborate combo tree with many angles and ways to keep going, but also has to read and try much harder to keep going than any staple the other 2 have. He has a *kinda* cool laser... which doesn't totally pan out as dominant as the other guys. His Dair is basically inferior to Falco's Dair onstage and off. Cheesy offstage gimps and shrimps, he's not as good at them. Fox Cstick up, do I even have to talk about that atrocity? I mean there's a list of things that show Wolf splitting away and branching off into different directions, being his own character, and not all of them totally work that great.
I couldn't make the case that Wolf should do as good as the other two against Marth and has comparable tools, because he's quite different from those two in a lot of ways. And yes, I play plenty of Marth against Space Animals in Melee and PM. In fact, I had to play 2 Wolf players back to back in bracket not too long ago (feels like I just saw Oro yesterday, I wish
), the second one being one of the best Wolf players out there (Rat scares me, I want him to pick up a peaceful character and not go HAM). I'm not out of the loop when it comes to that character at all, certainly not from the Marth side in the least.
1. Wolf's ability to get out of stuff better than Fox/Falco is marginally better. I think it's a factor barely worth mentioning against Marth specifically, but sure we'll list that.
2. Wolf's blaster game is almost wholly worse than Falco in many ways. Wavedashing out of it just means less time for anything and yes I would totally count that as undesirable lag when I could be doing something more productive, like shooting another laser by then or attacking or even the rare shielding. I mean, the alternative is to not wavedash afterwards and still suffer your blaster endlag. You also can't hugely adjust when you shoot the laser out of a SH and still be able to wavedash (timing isn't instant after the laser shoots iirc, so you need to do it fairly soon in your hop). Wolf can't as effectively do delayed lasers while being nearly as safe, which leads to a pretty repetitive timing if he wants to shoot one in a SH. The fact that you *can* clank and eat through them with attacks is a pretty negative con, I mean I guess this will never come into play if you have enough time and space to shoot 2 lasers back to back, with a WD backwards for each one, because surely the other guy is more committed during this time period. By the time he knows what's up, he's getting Fsmash lunged by Wolf or somehow might be pressured for considering to PS a laser anytime on stage. (I've never thought very highly of his blaster, but then again when I'm playing vs Spacies I'm usually a fast and awesome character. His laser game might apply more and impress me more if I were trying to main Peach or slowpoke x)
3, Wolf's Fsmash is definitely better than the other 2. That's not in dispute. But it seems a little hard to mesh together both the aggro frame safety/pressure up close, and being at the magical spacing where you can punish a lot of Marth's stuff with Fsmash/DACUS. Being able to punish things with it is nice, but a bit situational. Outside of Marth's own range/beyond tipper Fsmash range, it's hard to imagine compelling mistakes from him. It's not "well he whiffed Fair so I always get him with Cstick right". The recovery point is valid, but you may find better success trying to pressure him with something else (blaster as he's offstage and falling, maybe go out and Bair, etc) and then using Dsmash as he Upb's to the stage or is trying to come back on. Small note as well: if you hit someone with the starting hitbox/es of Wolf's Fsmash, people can SDI or sometimes DI those up and avoid the later strong hitbox. If you're spaced good enough in the moment that you only hit with the end, then it doesn't come into play obv. Still something kind of annoying for him to deal with though, dunno if they have a better way of connecting them together.
4. Wolf has a harder time sweetspotting on Upb, because his foot sticks out. With Side B, the angles you have to come at to try and sweetspot are much harder than the straight line Fox and Falco get, especially if you factor in Side B cancels. He has a trickier recovery, but it's not totally better in all regards to them. Flash is really good though and is definitely the hardest move to account for PRIMARILY if he's close enough to also land onstage with it. If he's further out, then he's not much better than them at it.
5.Wolf lacks some of the things that give the other Spacies the advantage vs Marth. If he operated extremely similar and was just as dominant in neutral, then yes it would make sense to assume he will do that good. But he has a mix of some aspects that are cool and unique (Nair for example), while also having inferior aspects mixed in (for Nair, the lesser range/non sex kick part comes back to haunt him sometimes). Wolf has an extensive and elaborate combo tree with many angles and ways to keep going, but also has to read and try much harder to keep going than any staple the other 2 have. He has a *kinda* cool laser... which doesn't totally pan out as dominant as the other guys. His Dair is basically inferior to Falco's Dair onstage and off. Cheesy offstage gimps and shrimps, he's not as good at them. Fox Cstick up, do I even have to talk about that atrocity? I mean there's a list of things that show Wolf splitting away and branching off into different directions, being his own character, and not all of them totally work that great.
I couldn't make the case that Wolf should do as good as the other two against Marth and has comparable tools, because he's quite different from those two in a lot of ways. And yes, I play plenty of Marth against Space Animals in Melee and PM. In fact, I had to play 2 Wolf players back to back in bracket not too long ago (feels like I just saw Oro yesterday, I wish
), the second one being one of the best Wolf players out there (Rat scares me, I want him to pick up a peaceful character and not go HAM). I'm not out of the loop when it comes to that character at all, certainly not from the Marth side in the least.
Archangel
Smash Hero
As Someone who's got alot of experience destroying Fox and Falco in Melee and by destroying I mean sometimes getting really good juggle kills and the Aye! Aye! chains on FD. All things consider Wolf is as hard to fight as both Falco and Fox. He's a spacie, he's got shines, he's got combos, he's got ways to kill the light, somewhat glass-chined Marth. On the other hand, he doesn't have nearly the same amount of Mental pressure Fox/Falco have.
Fox - main issue is dealing with the mobility, and lasers that chip away at you slowly. His combos when performed by a high level player are damn near inescapable and he can cover all of your options almost all the time. Your best best is finding a random slip up and making sure each slip up is a stock that you take. Aside from that Fox is better at everything minus range advantage Marth has in grab and in his attacks. The hardest part of the MU is keeping a cool head. It's the feeling that fox can make mistakes and still beat you but you have to be perfect. It's my believe that M2K was/still is so good in this MU because he aims at being perfect, still even he's opted for Sheik alot lately because fox's like to camp it up so he just hangs out on the ledge and up-b stalls to avoid taking needless damage. Something Marth can't do. I still feel Marth vs Fox is very slightly in Fox's favor unless you are a master of FD Chaingrabs and you are allowed to play on that stage during the set(it could be struck/banned) in which case it's even.
Falco - His lasers are feared by everybody however Marth vs Falco isn't that bad once you've learned to powershield. during your dash dancing and crouching it's super easy to Powershield. From there the MU really evens up because you can play your game of spacing and dashdancing without 100% conceding to falco in the neutral. You even turn one of Falco's biggest strengths into a weakness so mentally this MU becomes alot easier to play. That's the good news. The bad news is falco is STILL ****ing great and his combo's usually end up dealing at least 40% at a time if you manage to escape them at the right times. If the Falco player is on point though the follow ups from started combos....well, we've seen PP/Shiz no need to go into it. Falco is a little ***** off stage as usually but overall I feel Falco vs Marth is even or very very slightly Marth's favor. that's my opinion though i'm open to input from better Marth's.
Wolf - His main advantage over the spacies imo is that he's got some crazy priority on hit-boxes that don't seem connected to his body or they have amazing priority enough to match the sword or at times they are quick enough to get to Marth without putting Wolf at serious risk. His unique combos and at times very tricky attacks are at times difficult to counter when you are use to the same song and dance from Falco/Fox. Nair-shine-destroy-repeat. The bad news for Wolf is that he's slower, aerials don't have the same combination of Range, priority, and lingering hitboxes when stacked up against Fox and Falco. His lasers vs Marth are like....whatever. If you've been shot at by characters like Falco,Pit,Ivy...etc then Wolf is kinda cake to deal with. It can be difficult when recovering but on stage it's not nearly as overwhelming as the other spacies lasers at all. Wolf also feels the easiest to 0-death as well but that could be because he's the easiest to grab. Last but not least is the punishable predictability. Do to reasons already explained in this thread Wolf is limited in what he can do to Marth compared to the spacies. What Wolf can do also seems more....I'll say fair for lack of a better word. He doesn't do anything that feels unstoppable and most of it is so...linear and straightforward that once you get a read on what your opponent is trying to do like noob fsmash spams or trying to set you up for a grab throw-side B or Fair/Uair it just feels...so easy to NOT get caught by it. This isn't to say Fox/Falco aren't predictable even thought they have more options. It's just....well it's alot easier to avoid death vs Fox where you KNOW he's fishing for an Usmash or an Uthrow-Uair but there is little to do about it when he's faster than you and constantly shooting you in the face. Again, Not saying Wolf is easy to beat. He's just easier to beat both mentally and in terms of practicality. He doesn't have that extra he's just got enough.
Fox - main issue is dealing with the mobility, and lasers that chip away at you slowly. His combos when performed by a high level player are damn near inescapable and he can cover all of your options almost all the time. Your best best is finding a random slip up and making sure each slip up is a stock that you take. Aside from that Fox is better at everything minus range advantage Marth has in grab and in his attacks. The hardest part of the MU is keeping a cool head. It's the feeling that fox can make mistakes and still beat you but you have to be perfect. It's my believe that M2K was/still is so good in this MU because he aims at being perfect, still even he's opted for Sheik alot lately because fox's like to camp it up so he just hangs out on the ledge and up-b stalls to avoid taking needless damage. Something Marth can't do. I still feel Marth vs Fox is very slightly in Fox's favor unless you are a master of FD Chaingrabs and you are allowed to play on that stage during the set(it could be struck/banned) in which case it's even.
Falco - His lasers are feared by everybody however Marth vs Falco isn't that bad once you've learned to powershield. during your dash dancing and crouching it's super easy to Powershield. From there the MU really evens up because you can play your game of spacing and dashdancing without 100% conceding to falco in the neutral. You even turn one of Falco's biggest strengths into a weakness so mentally this MU becomes alot easier to play. That's the good news. The bad news is falco is STILL ****ing great and his combo's usually end up dealing at least 40% at a time if you manage to escape them at the right times. If the Falco player is on point though the follow ups from started combos....well, we've seen PP/Shiz no need to go into it. Falco is a little ***** off stage as usually but overall I feel Falco vs Marth is even or very very slightly Marth's favor. that's my opinion though i'm open to input from better Marth's.
Wolf - His main advantage over the spacies imo is that he's got some crazy priority on hit-boxes that don't seem connected to his body or they have amazing priority enough to match the sword or at times they are quick enough to get to Marth without putting Wolf at serious risk. His unique combos and at times very tricky attacks are at times difficult to counter when you are use to the same song and dance from Falco/Fox. Nair-shine-destroy-repeat. The bad news for Wolf is that he's slower, aerials don't have the same combination of Range, priority, and lingering hitboxes when stacked up against Fox and Falco. His lasers vs Marth are like....whatever. If you've been shot at by characters like Falco,Pit,Ivy...etc then Wolf is kinda cake to deal with. It can be difficult when recovering but on stage it's not nearly as overwhelming as the other spacies lasers at all. Wolf also feels the easiest to 0-death as well but that could be because he's the easiest to grab. Last but not least is the punishable predictability. Do to reasons already explained in this thread Wolf is limited in what he can do to Marth compared to the spacies. What Wolf can do also seems more....I'll say fair for lack of a better word. He doesn't do anything that feels unstoppable and most of it is so...linear and straightforward that once you get a read on what your opponent is trying to do like noob fsmash spams or trying to set you up for a grab throw-side B or Fair/Uair it just feels...so easy to NOT get caught by it. This isn't to say Fox/Falco aren't predictable even thought they have more options. It's just....well it's alot easier to avoid death vs Fox where you KNOW he's fishing for an Usmash or an Uthrow-Uair but there is little to do about it when he's faster than you and constantly shooting you in the face. Again, Not saying Wolf is easy to beat. He's just easier to beat both mentally and in terms of practicality. He doesn't have that extra he's just got enough.
2 replies, and both Wolf, Wario, Mario, Pit, and Snake?
Interesting.
DMG, some of your posts are really weird. A lot of detail about things, but aren't really accurate as being things in favor/not in favor of what you're saying they're in favor/not in favor of.
Both Luigi and Wolf, hard to understand what point you're trying to make, but you discuss it as if you're trying to make a point about favoritism. It's just stuff as it is, but you attach a quality of good/bad to it. Your posts don't have to always have to be favoring one character over another, and can simply be the nuances of the game rather than things that make or break it. The game/match-up/whatever is played a certain way, and these are the factors < accurate... then you say it's good or bad, and it's almost never accurate. It's like a weird unconscious bias.
Just figured that was worth mentioning, as your posts are good, but they seem to have purpose beyond being useful. Just post useful stuff, without that added opinion, and it would be just as good without lots of rinse/cycle/repeat discussions about the same thing over and over.
I'm sure I've mentioned this before anyway. Good stuff, just interesting consistency with this in your posting, as well as many others, but you post more often/articulately than most so hopefully you get this where others may not.
Falco vs Fox vs Wolf (Edit in these)
Falco = You have to find the holes in him while not letting him pressure and choke you. (if you don't find the holes to hit him, his pressure will find a hole in you, and he'll get a free connected hit every time)
Fox = You have to snag him while not letting him get into the holes of your maneuvers. (if you don't cover your holes, his speed will snag you in the neutral, and he'll get a free connected hit every time)
Wolf = You have to out-maneuver him while not letting him trap you and snag you at all. (if you don't out-maneuver him, he'll get in a position you can't cover, and he'll get a free connected hit every time)
That's it in a nutshell.
CONCLUSION?
Marth just DD-Grabs in all situations, and gimps in all situations.
Pretty standard.
Interesting.
DMG, some of your posts are really weird. A lot of detail about things, but aren't really accurate as being things in favor/not in favor of what you're saying they're in favor/not in favor of.
Both Luigi and Wolf, hard to understand what point you're trying to make, but you discuss it as if you're trying to make a point about favoritism. It's just stuff as it is, but you attach a quality of good/bad to it. Your posts don't have to always have to be favoring one character over another, and can simply be the nuances of the game rather than things that make or break it. The game/match-up/whatever is played a certain way, and these are the factors < accurate... then you say it's good or bad, and it's almost never accurate. It's like a weird unconscious bias.
Just figured that was worth mentioning, as your posts are good, but they seem to have purpose beyond being useful. Just post useful stuff, without that added opinion, and it would be just as good without lots of rinse/cycle/repeat discussions about the same thing over and over.
I'm sure I've mentioned this before anyway. Good stuff, just interesting consistency with this in your posting, as well as many others, but you post more often/articulately than most so hopefully you get this where others may not.
Falco vs Fox vs Wolf (Edit in these)
Falco = You have to find the holes in him while not letting him pressure and choke you. (if you don't find the holes to hit him, his pressure will find a hole in you, and he'll get a free connected hit every time)
Fox = You have to snag him while not letting him get into the holes of your maneuvers. (if you don't cover your holes, his speed will snag you in the neutral, and he'll get a free connected hit every time)
Wolf = You have to out-maneuver him while not letting him trap you and snag you at all. (if you don't out-maneuver him, he'll get in a position you can't cover, and he'll get a free connected hit every time)
That's it in a nutshell.
CONCLUSION?
Marth just DD-Grabs in all situations, and gimps in all situations.
Pretty standard.
I'mma blow your miiiiiiiind.
Wolf's neutral game isn't quite at the same level of Fox and Falco. Like really, I feel like this is most of what needs to be said. His lasers aren't nearly as omnipotent as Falco, he doesn't have those meaty lingering hitboxes, he's not quite as fast, some of his key tools can be CC'd... blah blah blah, Wolf just isn't as overwhelming in the neutral.
Marth vs spacies is all about Marth's punishment game, and because Wolf has a weaker neutral game than the other spacies Marth has an easier time opening up his punishment game.
a zip zop gobbledy goop
Wolf's neutral game isn't quite at the same level of Fox and Falco. Like really, I feel like this is most of what needs to be said. His lasers aren't nearly as omnipotent as Falco, he doesn't have those meaty lingering hitboxes, he's not quite as fast, some of his key tools can be CC'd... blah blah blah, Wolf just isn't as overwhelming in the neutral.
Marth vs spacies is all about Marth's punishment game, and because Wolf has a weaker neutral game than the other spacies Marth has an easier time opening up his punishment game.
a zip zop gobbledy goop
lagboards is killing me softly with his song
Archangel
Smash Hero
pretty much what I was trying to say in less words.
don't worry i got chu
Simplified, yay.
Though that's part of why Wolf players still all suck. They shoot lasers like they're Falco (who needs to shoot less-and-less even), and over-extend like they're Fox (who needs to camp more-and-more even)... etc...
As this quote says...
Falco's Neutral is a ball of pressure and presence, choking people out with spacing and hit-boxes.
Fox's Neutral is a cat-and-mouse game where he finds his way in through the wall of presence from the opponent.
Wolf's Neutral isn't going to have massive presence and crush the opponent, and it's not going to be a task of walling him out. It's probably best-compared to someone like Sheik. You can clobber her if you get in, but she'll clobber you if she catches you. She has the tools to keep you out almost indefinitely, or let you catch her at great risk through all the baits and maneuvers. She also has the tools to catch you without a way to avoid it, but you can make it very risky for her as well. Hence, Sheik matches at any decent level of play, become forms of Stalemates.
Wolf won't crush the Neutral, he'll STALEMATE it. He can Stalemate it like a BOSS too.
His Neutral is by no means 'worse' than the other spacies. It's just not as high-impact. It may seem that Marth can try more attempts at opening his punishment game (take risks to get rewards and it's worth it), but only because he's not looking for it through pressure (Falco), and not trying to bait his opponent to get anything (Fox), but it goes the same the other way. That comfort-zone belongs to Wolf just as much, since he doesn't have to look for openings through pressure (like the way Marth forces Fox to find holes or lose ground), or force openings while covering holes by staying offensive (like the way Falco has to choke people constantly or lose ground).
Wolf vs Marth looks like Sheik vs Marth when they both actually know what they're up against. Scary. As. F***. For. Both... yet somehow both comfortable with/without much room.
It's sweet, and exciting!
Shadow Huan
Smash Champion
in other words, a reasonable spacie lol
Shadow Huan
Smash Champion
wish I could delete stupid, laggy mobile double posts =\
Archangel
Smash Hero
Reasonable is open to interpretation. some find his claw attacks to be pretty nonsensical
I think that more Shiek players should try picking up wolf actually. Even though they differ in execution in more than a few ways, the basic bait and combo/punish playstyle is still the same. I think that eventually Wolf's meta will evolve him into more of a Shiek than a Space Animal, which I agree holds some rather exciting possibilities.
For me I'd currently say...
S: Ivysaur (fun fact, air down links into air down)
A: Falco, Marth, Shiek, Mr Game & Watch, Charizard, Fox, zelda, diddy, Luigi, Pikachu
B: Metaknight, Ganon, Snake, toon link, Jigglypuff , Captain, DK, Lucario, Ike, Mario, ROB, Lucas
C: Wolf, Sonic, Link, Squirtle, zero suit, Peach, Pit, Dedede, Wolf, Wario, Ness
I don't think Im missing any one...
Anyway's Ivysaur has insane priority, attack speed, reach and my least favorite thing is that he hits high percents with ease. His ranged attack can do 10-30% depending on character size. His recovery is just down-air upwards until you reach the ledge, so annoying.
Also is it a bug that as Mr Game&Watch I can just spam A infinitely and they wont be able to get out?
S: Ivysaur (fun fact, air down links into air down)
A: Falco, Marth, Shiek, Mr Game & Watch, Charizard, Fox, zelda, diddy, Luigi, Pikachu
B: Metaknight, Ganon, Snake, toon link, Jigglypuff , Captain, DK, Lucario, Ike, Mario, ROB, Lucas
C: Wolf, Sonic, Link, Squirtle, zero suit, Peach, Pit, Dedede, Wolf, Wario, Ness
I don't think Im missing any one...
Anyway's Ivysaur has insane priority, attack speed, reach and my least favorite thing is that he hits high percents with ease. His ranged attack can do 10-30% depending on character size. His recovery is just down-air upwards until you reach the ledge, so annoying.
Also is it a bug that as Mr Game&Watch I can just spam A infinitely and they wont be able to get out?
Don't edit this post. Please. Like, ever. You're going to want to look back on this someday.
As for the Game&Watch thing, look up smash di. Its very easy to get out of jab once you know about it.
For anyone wanting to learn about DI, see this: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/...-teching-and-crouch-cancelling-updated.60218/
Archangel
Smash Hero
so...Wolf is so bad that he has to be mentioned twice?
That's where everyone put him in the first couple months of 2.1...
Like a bunch of NOOBS!!!
I got flamed so hard by like 10 people after telling Lucien and about 10 other 'note-able' players he was good then...
Now I get flamed for Lucas and Luigi stuff...
WHEN WILL IT END?!?!?
Screw you, Tier-Lists Don Exist
Like a bunch of NOOBS!!!
I got flamed so hard by like 10 people after telling Lucien and about 10 other 'note-able' players he was good then...
Now I get flamed for Lucas and Luigi stuff...
WHEN WILL IT END?!?!?
Screw you, Tier-Lists Don Exist
SO BE IT!!!
I can accept this eternal punishment, though I'm not sure I would stand by anything as concrete as if that statement has no ignorance behind it on either side.
**** I need a simpler dialect/vocabulary for the internet.
I can accept this eternal punishment, though I'm not sure I would stand by anything as concrete as if that statement has no ignorance behind it on either side.
**** I need a simpler dialect/vocabulary for the internet.
Haha yes. Oops didn't mean to post him twice. I knew I screwed up in there.
Making a huge tier list with everyone seems rather pointless to me.
I think it is more constructive to identify who people think are the top 5 characters and bottom 5 characters and tweak from there and leave everyone in the middle unchanged for the time being. /opinion
Bottom 5 to me in 2.6 are(no specific order)
Luigi
Zelda
Toon Link
Dedede
Sonic
And top 5(again no specific order)
Fox
Falco
Ivy
Wario
Shiek
I think it is more constructive to identify who people think are the top 5 characters and bottom 5 characters and tweak from there and leave everyone in the middle unchanged for the time being. /opinion
Bottom 5 to me in 2.6 are(no specific order)
Luigi
Zelda
Toon Link
Dedede
Sonic
And top 5(again no specific order)
Fox
Falco
Ivy
Wario
Shiek
Archangel
Smash Hero
Top 5 is so much harder to do than the bottom 5. Why don't we try doing Top 10 and bottom 5?
Personally I think less is more in a already remarkably balanced game. Adjusting/tweaking characters people "generally" agree on as being top/bottom 5 is the best tact at preventing knee jerk reactions to balancing.
The fact that top 5 is hard to determine is a good thing because that shows greater balance IS being achieved, as its hard to distinguish who is the best/worst.
But from what I gather from this thread, most people think Fox/Falco/ Ivy are for sure in the top 5.
The fact that top 5 is hard to determine is a good thing because that shows greater balance IS being achieved, as its hard to distinguish who is the best/worst.
But from what I gather from this thread, most people think Fox/Falco/ Ivy are for sure in the top 5.