Tier List Speculation

[Plum]

If your list keeps including Luigi as a better character than Sheik, maybe the flames will never quell!

Luigi is allowed to be SSSSSSS+++++++ tier until 1/1/2014.
I mean, this is his year after all.

 

[Nausicaa]

True^

Why not just 'whoever stands out as better than the rest' and 'whoever stands out as worse than the rest'

Just speculate whatever quantities of whatever that you prefer.

 

[ELI-mination]

Luigi is really not that good

 

[9bit]

Luigi was and always will be in Luigi Tier, which exists in a parallel dimension to the other tier list. It has no relative position, either high or low.

 

[DMG]

Can I get a wha wha?

 

[MrBigstuff]

Luigi was and always will be in Luigi Tier, which exists in a parallel dimension to the other tier list. It has no relative position, either high or low.

So if the tier list is a representation of slope on an xy graph, does wavedash length extend into the z axis?

 

[DMG]

Is this really gonna be the Luigi only page?

Edit: damn the shy guys came out ugly. I had a nice pattern going too. Oh well...

 

[KayB]

Why do we never talk about Diddy Kong

 

[DMG]

What a sucky and gimmicky character

Luigi is

 

[Scythe]

That's where everyone put him in the first couple months of 2.1...
Like a bunch of NOOBS!!!
I got flamed so hard by like 10 people after telling Lucien and about 10 other 'note-able' players he was good then...

Now I get flamed for Lucas and Luigi stuff...
WHEN WILL IT END?!?!?

Screw you, Tier-Lists Don Exist

some of the system changes after 2.1 actually made wolf way more viable.

 

[SpiderMad]

some of the system changes after 2.1 actually made wolf way more viable.

que

 

[Nausicaa]

I'm not sure knock-back stacking and input delay were exactly Melee Mewtwo-Tier to Melee Fox-Tier life-changing for the character...
Maybe who knows? Maybe it was magically all he needed and everybody was smurf and I'm naught.
Can't wait for Light-Shields too. BROKEN!!!

 

[EddyBearr]

So P:M's top tier is basically the same as Melee's?

That's very saddening. I wouldn't play P:M to play as F/F/S/M/P/J. I'd play P:M to play as someone new.

 

[Ace55]

I'm not sure knock-back stacking and input delay were exactly Melee Mewtwo-Tier to Melee Fox-Tier life-changing for the character...
Can't wait for Light-Shields too. BROKEN!!!

Who the hell argued that Wolf (or any char) has been Mewtwo-tier bad...? I'd say were working between melee Fox and melee Ganon.[/quote]

 

[Oro?!]

So P:M's top tier is basically the same as Melee's?

That's very saddening. I wouldn't play P:M to play as F/F/S/M/P/J. I'd play P:M to play as someone new.

Undeveloped metagames are a huge portion of that. There are several new characters thought to be on par with Melee top as well now.

 

[Nausicaa]

Who the hell argued that Wolf (or any char) has been Mewtwo-tier bad...? I'd say were working between melee Fox and melee Ganon.

Bottom to Top
2.1 to 2.6
Check out the change-log, and if you can figure out why, let me know. Sure, nobody was as bad as Melee-Mewtwo, but bottom to top is still a difference worth noting... when NOTHING happened to change it.

Underdeveloped meta-games are a funny thing to consider when regarding Tier-Lists, and technically irrelevant, especially since it implies ignorance being a factor in truth. lol

Nice paradox is nice.
No wonder everyone thought Wolf/Lucas/etc were bad... nobody started off in PM playing them well, and despite how a silly person could see how good they are, they were blocked from the average human-brain due to not having footage of Side-B/general maneuvering being used regularly until several months later.
lololol :D

 

[EddyBearr]

Undeveloped metagames are a huge portion of that. There are several new characters thought to be on par with Melee top as well now.

Random Ivysaur makes me question how undeveloped it is.

Plus melee's earlier tier lists had most all the better characters listed as better. F/F/S is timeless.

 

[trash?]

melee's older tier lists also called samus one of the best characters in the game, period

metagame development is a funny thing like that

 

[Archangel]

I believe some character in Melee that were top 8 are still top 8. Others aren't.

 

[Nausicaa]

Or we could just put it differently...
Top 8 in Project M is more like Top 16
Same proportionally in the cast, the difference between the Top 8 and Top 16 just isn't even worth noting.

 

[Archangel]

Or we could just put it differently...
Top 8 in Project M is more like Top 16
Same proportionally in the cast, the difference between the Top 8 and Top 16 just isn't even worth noting.

That's kinda what I've been saying for awhile. I got **** for putting Peach in A tier...even though my A tier extends into the top 16. So I had her at like...14th or something...but it's pretty much exactly where she is in Melee...just more characters around.

I think Fox/Falco's strangle hold on the top spot is over. I believe there are a handful of characters between F/F and Sheik. I also believe that there may be some characters between Fox and Falco...but since that's taboo around here I'll wait for everyone else to catch up.

 

[Scythe]

Bottom to Top
2.1 to 2.6
Check out the change-log, and if you can figure out why, let me know. Sure, nobody was as bad as Melee-Mewtwo, but bottom to top is still a difference worth noting... when NOTHING happened to change it.

Underdeveloped meta-games are a funny thing to consider when regarding Tier-Lists, and technically irrelevant, especially since it implies ignorance being a factor in truth. lol

Nice paradox is nice.
No wonder everyone thought Wolf/Lucas/etc were bad... nobody started off in PM playing them well, and despite how a silly person could see how good they are, they were blocked from the average human-brain due to not having footage of Side-B/general maneuvering being used regularly until several months later.
lololol :D

i dont really recall people thinking wolf is bad and lucas is quite different now lol

 

[Archangel]

Or we could just put it differently...
Top 8 in Project M is more like Top 16
Same proportionally in the cast, the difference between the Top 8 and Top 16 just isn't even worth noting.

That's kinda what I've been saying for awhile. I got **** for putting Peach in A tier...even though my A tier extends into the top 16. So I had her at like...14th or something...but it's pretty much exactly where she is in Melee...just more characters around.

I think Fox/Falco's strangle hold on the top spot is over. I believe there are a handful of characters between F/F and Sheik. I also believe that there may be some characters between Fox and Falco...but since that's taboo around here I'll wait for everyone else to catch up.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

So P:M's top tier is basically the same as Melee's?

That's very saddening. I wouldn't play P:M to play as F/F/S/M/P/J. I'd play P:M to play as someone new.

well uh yes fox and falco are still good unfortunately, but you're wrong. Wolf does what sheik does better. Marth isn't nearly as dominant

Spoiler

marth is low tier

as in melee. Peach is still okay, but the advancing of the rest of the class means she's not dominant. Jiggs has some issues in P:M as characters have a lot of responses to the tools that made Jiggs great in melee. Also yeah Wolf, Ivy, Snake, Wario, Bowser, and Mario are pretty dominant. Plus the rest of the cast isn't much lower, if at all.

And weegee is weegee

 

[1MachGO]

Mario is probably as good as Fox, Falco, and Sheik. Wolf is really good, but a little worse than the other spacies.

And everyone is sleeping on Zelda. Zelda's options in the neutral game far exceed many other characters. And if you want to count it, Sheilda is probably better than Fox and Falco. From what I can tell, the pair cover the other's bad MUs and stage counterpicks.

 

[Archangel]

Mario is probably as good as Fox, Falco, and Sheik. Wolf is really good, but a little worse than the other spacies.

And everyone is sleeping on Zelda. Zelda's options in the neutral game far exceed many other characters. And if you want to count it, Sheilda is probably better than Fox and Falco. From what I can tell, the pair cover the other's bad MUs and stage counterpicks.

you can probably quote me saying this since 2.0

****** is sleeping, The more I play/play against Zelda the more familiar I am with her as a character....and I've come to the realization that her only major weakness is that she's too slow in some situations. A weakness that's easily covered by just being decent with Sheik. With that said, it's probably not going to be a very good zelda with a decent sheik alt that does the damage. It'll probably be a very good sheik with a decent Zelda alt that does the damage.

 

[Castro42]

Making a huge tier list with everyone seems rather pointless to me.

I think it is more constructive to identify who people think are the top 5 characters and bottom 5 characters and tweak from there and leave everyone in the middle unchanged for the time being. /opinion

I kind of feel that, but hey, if Im willing to put in more effort, why not?

 

[esoterics]

[It's] probably not going to be a very good zelda with a decent sheik alt that does the damage. It'll probably be a very good sheik with a decent Zelda alt that does the damage.

I agree 100%. Being able to counter-pick mid-game is something that will become incredibly valuable once Zelda's metagame develops.


I think it's safe to say Zelda/Shiek is now Nayru tier.

 

[Burnsy]

i dont really recall people thinking wolf is bad and lucas is quite different now lol

I've mained Lucas since 2.1 and since then he hasn't really changed much. His tweaked aerials are better, but they aren't so drastic to move him from lots of peoples C and D tiers to high B and As. He has always been good.

 

[Deleted member]

why not just be good at sheik to begin with if you need it to cover zelda's weaknesses? i'd rather use sheik and have a mediocre zelda to cover weird MUs than the other way around.

 

[Archangel]

why not just be good at sheik to begin with if you need it to cover zelda's weaknesses? i'd rather use sheik and have a mediocre zelda to cover weird MUs than the other way around.

Having a Mediocre Zelda is like having a Mediocre anyone else. It's simply not good enough. That and Sheik always has been/still is easy mode even the top level AT's are easy. Zelda on the other hand is still being developed. She can Wavedash out of her Up-B etc.... She's got alot of development in terms of MU's and general how to play knowledge. I think Zelda has some MU's that she can play better than sheik especially on specific stages but only if you know what you are doing/are on top of your game. In other words, being above mediocre.

 

[Hylian]

I've mained Lucas since 2.1 and since then he hasn't really changed much. His tweaked aerials are better, but they aren't so drastic to move him from lots of peoples C and D tiers to high B and As. He has always been good.

His jump mechanics changes have done more for him than any of his move changes. In 2.1 he could get 0-deathed off a grab by over half the cast >_>. There is a bunch of other small stuff that's been changed to help him as well.

 

[Nausicaa]

His Grab boxes aren't stupid anymore, that's good.
He's still as good as ever, getting 0-deaths against him is still kind of a 'thing' but it's no different than a lot of characters with that 'issue', where Lucas has a WAY easier time of not-getting-hit while making and finding openings than almost all of them, as well as getting 0-deaths off literally anything on anyone for himself in return.
His DD/WD game is/was/will be solid, and that's what makes or breaks characters of his nature.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Having a Mediocre Zelda is like having a Mediocre anyone else. It's simply not good enough. That and Sheik always has been/still is easy mode even the top level AT's are easy. Zelda on the other hand is still being developed. She can Wavedash out of her Up-B etc.... She's got alot of development in terms of MU's and general how to play knowledge. I think Zelda has some MU's that she can play better than sheik especially on specific stages but only if you know what you are doing/are on top of your game. In other words, being above mediocre.

I feel like Zelda has a really high theoretical skill ceiling, and right now she is nowhere near her potential. Once she's developed she may be a sleeper top tier like puff was in melee.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

fuq u lagboards

 

[Spiffykins]

Lucas' meh recovery and poor OOS options hurt more than anything else imo. Getting comboed hard is nothing new or that detrimental when the character is balanced around that, as Lucas is.

Also, his new back air is a HUGE improvement. His old one was garbage. Came out slow, had a puny hitbox, didn't last long, and had lots of end lag. His aerial game sorely lacked a reliable, versatile finisher/kill move, and now that that gap is gone he feels like a much more solid character.

 

[trash?]

at first his new-technically-old dair was weird, but then it still spikes properly anyway and it's a bit more proper in doing so, so yeah that was a buff definitely

PK kids are going to get higher over time, bowser is going to go lower. I call it the zangief effect, whoever can kill an unknowledged player the fastest is top tier at the beginning of a meta game, and will always go worse, whereas on the flip side, a character that requires huge amounts of knowledge will look mid-tier at best, and get better over time

 

[Scythe]

I've mained Lucas since 2.1 and since then he hasn't really changed much. His tweaked aerials are better, but they aren't so drastic to move him from lots of peoples C and D tiers to high B and As. He has always been good.

i seem to remember him getting edgeguarded way harder before because his head would pop up. that was a huge buff.

 

[Burnsy]

Lucas' meh recovery and poor OOS options hurt more than anything else imo. Getting comboed hard is nothing new or that detrimental when the character is balanced around that, as Lucas is.

Also, his new back air is a HUGE improvement. His old one was garbage. Came out slow, had a puny hitbox, didn't last long, and had lots of end lag. His aerial game sorely lacked a reliable, versatile finisher/kill move, and now that that gap is gone he feels like a much more solid character.

Combos into his old bair were easy because juggling with him is easy. His new one is better in *almost* every way though, I agree.

Anyone who thinks his recovery is anything less than "pretty good" hasn't seen all of his possible recovery mix ups.

 

[Zwarm]

In all fairness, though, his up B is god awful. I've never seen it win a trade ever, it has like, 0 priority.

His tether on the other hand, amazing.