Vashimus
Smash Master
Real talk, I would love if M2K picked up Meta Knight.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
You know he's not going to.
No, but I will. And I'll tell you how bad I'll do with him at the tourney in two weeks, lol.
I keep hearing people say Mario is super good, yet in all the tourney footage Ive watched no one seems to want to counterpick Marth/Ike or Link against him. His biggest weakness is his range, why has no one exposed that yet?
To add to Oro, Wolf loves the higher shield pushback, because that ****ing trolls people on shield (mostly with DA and DACUS and sometimes Dsmash) and makes them miss IDK how many times. He's like artificially safe doing some of this sometimes, it's kind of annoying. I've blatantly shielded a ton of DA's to the face, only to find out HIS LITTLE CLAW had so much force, it pushed me back and I can't freakin shield grab him now. Thank god for Marth and huge grab range char in general.
I dunno about his bad MU's, but Marth feels very comfortable against Wolf. His overall kit is well equipped to handle Wolf. I wish I was used to his Uthrow CG timing on Wolf (I suspected the CG didn't start at 0, but chalked it up to me sucking/bad timing), he flops in the air SO JANKY! DO YOU HEAR ME RAT, HE FLOPS ALL JANKY LIKE AND IT MAKES ME MISS! GAH
I dunno about his bad MU's, but Marth feels very comfortable against Wolf. His overall kit is well equipped to handle Wolf. I wish I was used to his Uthrow CG timing on Wolf (I suspected the CG didn't start at 0, but chalked it up to me sucking/bad timing), he flops in the air SO JANKY! DO YOU HEAR ME RAT, HE FLOPS ALL JANKY LIKE AND IT MAKES ME MISS! GAH
Pwnz0rz Man
Smash Lord
Link isn't much of a Mario counterpick, from my experience. People probably don't counterpick him because they don't play as the counterpicks. Hell, the very notion that you would need to counterpick Mario, should be proof enough that he's good.
NeonApophis
Smash Apprentice
I'm pretty sure the chain throw really doesn't start at 0, since Wolf has such a high fall speed (the fastest in PM).
I also doubt that Marth has any substantial edge on Wolf. Wolf is better at getting out of Marth's combos than the other spacies because of his faster fall speed and better aerial mobility, which lets him get farther away during combos and helps him get back to the ground more quickly so that he can tech. He's better at recovering as well since his side b can be angled up and his up b is much faster than the other spacies, making him less susceptible to getting gimped. His physical shield pressure isn't quite as good as Fox's or Falco's, but his blaster is pretty problematic for Marth, since it eats shields and Marth doesn't want to roll through them or jump, since this makes him vulnerable (Marth really doesn't want to be above Wolf). Powershielding isn't even that great since Wolf can fire multiple layered shots so that the powershielded shot clanks with the second shot, or the second shot can just hit Marth if he tries to attack and clank with the first shot. FSmash is also a serious issue for Marth because it outranges all of Marth's moves. It is not that difficult to stay out of range, especially when Marth is recovering, and just Fsmash once he's vulnerable. Aside from these things, I think the general dynamic of the match is pretty similar to the other spacies vs Marth matchups. Wolf can be more aggressive due to his good frame pressure, while Marth generally wants to bait mistakes with good movement and then punish as hard as possible. It's not a bad matchup for Marth, but I think Wolf probably has the advantage considering that spacies probably had a slight edge on Marth in Melee, and Wolf's unique tools seem particularly good against Marth.
D
Deleted member
Guest
because mario's weakness to range is marginal at best. it's better to play what you know and to try to outplay the mario player than it is to try to capitalize on some margin that's debatable in its utility.
1. Marth has no long lasting aerials or hitboxes, meaning that Marth has to go through extra effort trying to space Mario away, especially considering he is a very fast character and has an excellent projectile. Mario also combos Marth very well, so its difficult to consider this a Mario counter-pick. Imo the MU is 55-45 Marth, but its not a counter-pick.
2. Both Ike and Link are too slow and limited to really be considered a counter-pick. Not to mention both get comboed by Mario hard.
3. Range is his largest problem, but in actuality it isn't that much of a flaw considering the different tools he can use to make up for it. He has very fast moves, an above average wavedash, an insanely good combo game, a very good edgeguarding game, an effective projectile, and so on and so forth.
Basically, my point is that Mario has some sort of answer for many things to the point where he doesn't have a distinct opposite. Instead of switching characters, imo you're better off playing with the character you're the best with and trying to outplay your opponent. While Mario has no counter-picks, he isn't a counter-pick himself.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Umbreon
If Marth does a combo that you can get out of, then yes Wolf has a better time landing/getting away than the other spacies usually. That's not very common though... Like those traits help out nothing at all when you're getting Utilted/uthrown, tech chased, or put off stage. Onstage, that mobility difference is something to differentiate him from Fox and Falco, but as far as getting combo'd goes, Wolf is basically in the same boat. As for being above Wolf, I'd like to slightly correct that: being directly above Wolf seems fine, but being above and diagonal to Wolf is where it goes bad because the threat of stuff like Side B or Fair or DACUS is much stronger than getting down from his Uair/vertical. The vertical aspect isn't what's scary, it's being diagonal. That's the one area he covers that's pretty unique to him and is quite dangerous.
Blaster is not an issue for Marth, there are plenty of ways to clink with it or deal with it. PSing it is probably the most effective answer because you can move towards Wolf immediately with say a WD and have his own projectile work with you. It's a catch 22, because you obviously want some space when starting the blaster so that Marth doesn't come up and hit you, but because of how slow the projectile travels you want it to be close enough to generate pressure of some kind. Something kind of cheesy and lame you can do, is also mix up certain SDI and options once you're about to get hit, to make it harder for Wolf to follow up on. One example I'll give is jumping into/on top of the laser (if you come to the conclusion that it's probably gonna hit), and SDIing up. Wolf sees that you got hit, and goes for say a Fsmash, but you're too high up now. The correct punish in that case would be Fair or DACUS, but those punishes would lose to other options like if you just fully held shield, if you did SDI away or were fully grounded and DI'd down, if the person threw out an attack to clink with it, etc. If you're not fast enough or don't expect the person to get hit in that moment, they tend to recover in the air decently fast as well and can "panic" Peach Nair/Marth Fair/etc move to stuff things. The same thing doesn't happen to Falco nearly as much, because he smoothly approaches with laser with much less lag than Wolf has to worry about.
Wolf's blaster game (against good characters) does not limit them as much as Falco, and requires better reads/follow throughs. That should be the basic takeaway you get.
Fsmash does not have more "range" per se than Marth's moves. He just moves his body far while doing it. If you stick out an attack and he goes into it, he usually loses that trade. Because it shifts your whole body forward instead of using a limb or weapon to cover that entire distance, you also get into more trouble with shield grabs and simultaneous counter attacks/OOS options. Wolf has more range than the other spacies, but he's still decently out-disjointed by Marth in some key areas and you can't make up for it by being able to punish some things with flying Fsmashes (or DACUS, aka God's Wrath put on Earth). His recovery is better and worse than the other spaces, it's a trade off. Worse sweetspotting is the con, and Flash in general is the buff. The main thing to take away though, is that he's still basically a spacie offstage. It's the super danger zone, and Wolf doesn't want to be there against his opponent. Surely not against a Marth of all choices lol.
I think Marth wins, with the main difference being that Wolf doesn't lock down or limit Marth as much in Neutral. Both sides can do bad things to the other, Marth tends to have it easier though. Just my 120,000,000 cents on the matter
Blaster is not an issue for Marth, there are plenty of ways to clink with it or deal with it. PSing it is probably the most effective answer because you can move towards Wolf immediately with say a WD and have his own projectile work with you. It's a catch 22, because you obviously want some space when starting the blaster so that Marth doesn't come up and hit you, but because of how slow the projectile travels you want it to be close enough to generate pressure of some kind. Something kind of cheesy and lame you can do, is also mix up certain SDI and options once you're about to get hit, to make it harder for Wolf to follow up on. One example I'll give is jumping into/on top of the laser (if you come to the conclusion that it's probably gonna hit), and SDIing up. Wolf sees that you got hit, and goes for say a Fsmash, but you're too high up now. The correct punish in that case would be Fair or DACUS, but those punishes would lose to other options like if you just fully held shield, if you did SDI away or were fully grounded and DI'd down, if the person threw out an attack to clink with it, etc. If you're not fast enough or don't expect the person to get hit in that moment, they tend to recover in the air decently fast as well and can "panic" Peach Nair/Marth Fair/etc move to stuff things. The same thing doesn't happen to Falco nearly as much, because he smoothly approaches with laser with much less lag than Wolf has to worry about.
Wolf's blaster game (against good characters) does not limit them as much as Falco, and requires better reads/follow throughs. That should be the basic takeaway you get.
Fsmash does not have more "range" per se than Marth's moves. He just moves his body far while doing it. If you stick out an attack and he goes into it, he usually loses that trade. Because it shifts your whole body forward instead of using a limb or weapon to cover that entire distance, you also get into more trouble with shield grabs and simultaneous counter attacks/OOS options. Wolf has more range than the other spacies, but he's still decently out-disjointed by Marth in some key areas and you can't make up for it by being able to punish some things with flying Fsmashes (or DACUS, aka God's Wrath put on Earth). His recovery is better and worse than the other spaces, it's a trade off. Worse sweetspotting is the con, and Flash in general is the buff. The main thing to take away though, is that he's still basically a spacie offstage. It's the super danger zone, and Wolf doesn't want to be there against his opponent. Surely not against a Marth of all choices lol.
I think Marth wins, with the main difference being that Wolf doesn't lock down or limit Marth as much in Neutral. Both sides can do bad things to the other, Marth tends to have it easier though. Just my 120,000,000 cents on the matter
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Luigi becomes bottom tier when he jumps.
Then he becomes broken tier when you do a neutral air.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
****in' Nair.
But I don't know what he needs necessarily. I remember someone arguing about it before about Luigi being better than Mario and it was broken down into how Mario has significantly better mobility giving him the edge despite Luigi having arguably a better moveset. His air speed is definitely his biggest problem, but I don't particularly recommend altering character physics to buff them so I don't know what specifically to look at with him.
But I don't know what he needs necessarily. I remember someone arguing about it before about Luigi being better than Mario and it was broken down into how Mario has significantly better mobility giving him the edge despite Luigi having arguably a better moveset. His air speed is definitely his biggest problem, but I don't particularly recommend altering character physics to buff them so I don't know what specifically to look at with him.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
There's a guy who recommended buffing his fireballs. I think that is the easiest way to make him better. Basically he just needs to be able to angle his fireballs down a little and he will be golden. I think he said you would do that by holding down b for a longer period of time.
JUMP CANCELABLE FIREBALLS
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Lol. Like Falco's lasers amirite?
Mario is one of Links hardest match-ups. The fireballs are a pain and Marios superior movement options and his insane combo game on Link make it really hard for link, especially if mario gets grabs on you often.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Hylian you should make Link uber tier. The Hero of Time has been held down by the plebeian masses long enough.
I'm not a fan of giving my character unnecessary buffs
. I think he's viable, good enough for me.Edit: Unless you mean I should push his metagame to the limit in which case...maybe.
Nguz95
Smash Lord
Pwnz0rz Man
Smash Lord
Sounds about right. Link is never that much of a struggle with Mario.
Spiffykins
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 31, 2012
- Messages
- 547
In addition to his poor grab range, his up throw/down throw is one of the worse DI mixups in the game when it comes to grabs. Good DI = little to no follow up potential on most chars past low percent. Personally, I'd rather see the angles on his u/d throws steepened than his grab range increased.
I'm not a fan of the bigger hitboxes idea. Aura charges are limited in use but the fun lies in finding creative ways to apply them, and deciding whether to use them for extending combos, approaching, edgeguarding, or killing.
As for the neutral game, getting rid of his silly impractical nair for something more reliable would be fine. And of course the standard, obligatory compaints, down b and aerial mobility. I would be 100% okay with trading some invincibility on down b for something closer to the old speed back.
yeah, but luigi would have an actual drawback to those fireballs
that being, in order to do this trick, he would have to jump at some point
RIP JUMPING LUIGI
still the worst, 1973
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
I totally had an on topic post! Recently in fact. I asked a very similar question as you. Look closelier... (South Park reference)
I would argue Toon Link needing a slightly faster animation on his boomerang, and a slightly faster grab. End lag for grab should be the same.
Pikachu also may need something. Axe suggested making his dash attack something that wasn't worthless.
DDD may need something small, but I'm not sure what. (I still love the NZA's idea of sliding on his belly like a penguin as a fast movement option, but I understand that that would be difficult.)
R.O.B. may need that thing Oracle talked about back.
Ganon looks like he might be getting some things based on...I think it was Oro's stream.
Lucario may need something small, but again, I'm not sure.
Luigi may need a faster misfire, like Melee.
I think those are the only characters that aren't good enough (Even if only by a small margin). I may have forgotten somebody, but I don't think I did.
I'm just looking for something more innate to Lucario, like an improvement to having an Aura Charge so being without one is made up for a little more. Basically, improving his neutral in some way WITH it > improving his neutral in some way WITHOUT it. I like the dynamics between the 2, but maybe that's where things like making his specials even BETTER (more speed on Down-B for example) with Aura Charges.
Yeah I know, you mentioned my question which was simply me mentioning a question someone else made. There's a train going at least. It worked!
Revert TL's grab back to 2.1 and he's fine.
Dash Attack on Pika is a simple thing to change in terms of 'oh it's a bad move, let's make it better' but it's just another tool and it's not tools that he's lacking. If anything, something like quickening the start-up on Up-B to allow for quicker escapes/faster maneuvering/faster edge-game as well as on-stage application of it, that might actually do something for the character. As well as hurt-box fixes too. PS: Axe is silly, I wouldn't ask him about balance change significance. hehe
Dedede is funny... he could use more tools, in a way, but it's totally not his thing so should be very carefully considered if that's the direction to go.
ROB would be fun with angled Side-Bs XD
Ganon's Up-B, I've always dreamed, would be fun and amazing as a crazy-good finisher or combo move... somehow... OOS too.
Lucario all about dynamics and keeping him VERY unique (bad Neutral but becomes half-broken when he DOES get a hit)
Luigi misfire faster what? Like traveling? It's fine, it's already stupid-good.
Who the **** jumps with Luigi outside of combos or other niche situations where that doesn't even play a factor?
Range, speed, and utility on F-tilt, Grab, U-smash, U-tilt, D-smash, Jab, Down-B, and one of the best DD/WD ground maneuvering games for precision to help this, he doesn't even need aerials in neutral.
So this might as well be saying Marth is bottom tier when he mis-spaces aerials on shields. lol
Give me more! I want to know how people would improve Luigi/think he's bad.
Luigi has some decent traits, but is too conflicting of a character. His wavedash helps him with spacing and retreating, but it's basically an inferior dash dance a lot of the time because you have landing lag and can't fluidly change directions on a dime. Ofc it has useful applications for wavelanding on platforms and similar things, just talking about onstage neutral stuff. Because of that, it's much harder to use it as a precise tool to break through someone's spacing and get in. Even with different wavedash angles, you still can't adjust very quickly and that's a problem. You can on the fly pick a different wavedash angle, but once you choose it you are set in that angle and that landing lag.
There are certain spacing situations that feel like a lose-lose if you choose first or don't pick the absolutely perfect option. Like if a character out ranges you, and you are placed just outside that spacing. Say a MK Ftilt or something. If you do a stronger wavedash, you'll reach his body very quickly but be in harm's way of any attack he may have chose. Now lets say you did this good Wavedash. If you chose something afterwards like jab or Dsmash or a tilt, and he shielded, your body is scooting at him and will probably give that character an easy shield grab. Your best option is probably to grab if you are getting that close with your wavedash, maybe shielding as well. If you wavedash in as the other guy is retreating, the grab will probably miss.
So say you picked a weak wavedash angle. You want to slide in a bit, but not as far as normal. If you chose this option, stuff like grab is out of the question, while stuff like Ftilt becomes much better. While you will be safer on shield if you whiff an attack, you also risk getting outspaced easier if the other person happens to be backing up (because you aren't sliding as far or as fast towards them).
Now take it a bit further: you're in neutral with some guy who is DDing around. You're just outside of their range. You read that the person will try to DD retreat back a bit, and you intend to WD in and clip them with a quick Ftilt. You both execute your plan: you WD in like a manly man and the other dude is dragging his DD away. All of a sudden, he cancels that DD into any action. Grab, attack, shield, etc. No matter what action he picks, there is one common advantage he will always have over a Luigi who's WDing in. The advantage is that if he picks an adjustment or action to take, it happens immediately in that moment without any lag or restrictions. Whether the person was DDing, standing 100% still, or walking around, he doesn't have the wavedash lag handicap. This lets you fix any "attribute" on the fly that you aren't comfortable with. Feel like you might get hit out of your DD because you misjudged how far away they were? Cool, you can immediately shield or roll or spotdodge out of it. Think the other guy might not attack as fast, and you want to get a hitbox out first? Sure thing, pick a move and it should come out. Don't like your spacing and want to preemptively get away from pressure? Start dashing away. Etc
What it all leads to, is that other characters are playing a relatively free and open game, while Luigi is artificially restricted a bit whenever he chooses to WD. Without using that option however, he's a fairly mediocre character in his own right. He has some very bad defensive traits... I don't think we have to mention how far he flies if strong stuff hits his shield or how far he slides if he tries to CC attacks. Not necessarily the best range to stuff opponents or defend himself, and without WDing he would be nearly incompetent on offense. You would have to play ridiculously well without it to win. This reliance on WDing is a problem though, and is preventing the character from playing the same "game" that a decent character is playing.
Negative traits that don't involve WD:
Bad Air speed/not too great fall speed
Averagish range
Combos on non FF's are hard to pull off with proper DI (and get hard to follow up on when factoring in his normal sliding on the ground. If you running Usmash someone, maybe if Luigi stopped his butt in place you could follow it, but no he keeps sliding)
Is susceptible to CC at lower %'s on a lot of moves
Recovery could be a bit smoother
There are certain spacing situations that feel like a lose-lose if you choose first or don't pick the absolutely perfect option. Like if a character out ranges you, and you are placed just outside that spacing. Say a MK Ftilt or something. If you do a stronger wavedash, you'll reach his body very quickly but be in harm's way of any attack he may have chose. Now lets say you did this good Wavedash. If you chose something afterwards like jab or Dsmash or a tilt, and he shielded, your body is scooting at him and will probably give that character an easy shield grab. Your best option is probably to grab if you are getting that close with your wavedash, maybe shielding as well. If you wavedash in as the other guy is retreating, the grab will probably miss.
So say you picked a weak wavedash angle. You want to slide in a bit, but not as far as normal. If you chose this option, stuff like grab is out of the question, while stuff like Ftilt becomes much better. While you will be safer on shield if you whiff an attack, you also risk getting outspaced easier if the other person happens to be backing up (because you aren't sliding as far or as fast towards them).
Now take it a bit further: you're in neutral with some guy who is DDing around. You're just outside of their range. You read that the person will try to DD retreat back a bit, and you intend to WD in and clip them with a quick Ftilt. You both execute your plan: you WD in like a manly man and the other dude is dragging his DD away. All of a sudden, he cancels that DD into any action. Grab, attack, shield, etc. No matter what action he picks, there is one common advantage he will always have over a Luigi who's WDing in. The advantage is that if he picks an adjustment or action to take, it happens immediately in that moment without any lag or restrictions. Whether the person was DDing, standing 100% still, or walking around, he doesn't have the wavedash lag handicap. This lets you fix any "attribute" on the fly that you aren't comfortable with. Feel like you might get hit out of your DD because you misjudged how far away they were? Cool, you can immediately shield or roll or spotdodge out of it. Think the other guy might not attack as fast, and you want to get a hitbox out first? Sure thing, pick a move and it should come out. Don't like your spacing and want to preemptively get away from pressure? Start dashing away. Etc
What it all leads to, is that other characters are playing a relatively free and open game, while Luigi is artificially restricted a bit whenever he chooses to WD. Without using that option however, he's a fairly mediocre character in his own right. He has some very bad defensive traits... I don't think we have to mention how far he flies if strong stuff hits his shield or how far he slides if he tries to CC attacks. Not necessarily the best range to stuff opponents or defend himself, and without WDing he would be nearly incompetent on offense. You would have to play ridiculously well without it to win. This reliance on WDing is a problem though, and is preventing the character from playing the same "game" that a decent character is playing.
Negative traits that don't involve WD:
Bad Air speed/not too great fall speed
Averagish range
Combos on non FF's are hard to pull off with proper DI (and get hard to follow up on when factoring in his normal sliding on the ground. If you running Usmash someone, maybe if Luigi stopped his butt in place you could follow it, but no he keeps sliding)
Is susceptible to CC at lower %'s on a lot of moves
Recovery could be a bit smoother
^That's why one of the things that defines a good Luigi from a great Luigi is the application of DDing.
For some reason, it's neglected entirely as a Neutral-base to his game, even when his DD grab/u-smash/d-smash/pivot/f-tilt/etc game is great on its own, let alone in combination with WDing.
It's good Luigi has that commitment issue on WD, and that's why it shouldn't be so liberally used (saying it's a weakness is like saying Fox/Pika/other N-air planes suffer because N-air approaches are committing)
I'm pretty sure we've discussed this before (or at least I have with many), but this is why a good pivot game was BnB for top level Luigi in Melee, simply because it negated WD > DD > lack of control following up. This is also why it's so easy to navigate in Neutral in PM. You don't ever have to over-extend anything off WD's in PM. You can walk the other direction for a single frame and it halts all movement. He's not 100% focused around Wavedash (> Pivots) to space/create offense, and it's naive to think he is, this is kind of the bane of insight to Luigi-hood. His WD > DD Grab is the BnB approach, NOT WD > attack/grab/whatever straight away. DD is the Neutral, it's the approach, the offense... the WD just makes it a little scarier since he has the option IF it comes up to use it.
With shield push-back in PM, Luigi U-smashing or D-smashing an opponents shield will actually push him out of punishing range, oddly enough. It's really tricky to hit a Luigi if he Smashes your shield and isn'tsliding towards you with full momentum from a WD, which is silly and he shouldn't be doing that anyway. With momentum-halting on WD's, it's easy to space this, and even F-tilt becomes literally 100% safe on shields off any WD approach. This isn't off direct WD's (the 10 frame lag isn't a factor here), it's the moment after. The WD is a bait at most (sometimes can be the raw approach, but only when appropriate), given that it IS an option he can come at you, but the halt, the instant STOP at any point on the way, and the DD Grab/Smash threat to follow, THAT is Luigi's Neutral. AFTER the WD.
If WD is considered as Luigi's Neutral, than that's simply not talking about proper Luigi play. If WD isn't appropriate for the occasion (close quarters neutral game), then the DD Grab/F-tilt/Smash game is the Neutral, and the WD away (followed by a halt after a short distance, or a DD slightly back, or a WD back to the spot to bait or approach again) is simply a reset-option-WD and nothing more. WD is NOT core of the character's Neutral game, it's simply another tool he has. You might as well call it a short distance teleport. Not an approach, simply a long-distance positioning tool. Note: NOT an offensive or defensive tool, simply a tool to position himself FOR the Neutral game.
With that in application, ^ how would you consider his Neutral game, or what factors into it then? As most of the statements you (and many others about this character) commonly mention them, and yet they actually do NOT apply to the Luigi meta-game fore-front in terms of what makes the character good/bad. His neutral-game seems to be a very ill-conceived thing for most people.
Very true though, that is for sure the downfall of having such a fundamental reverse of WD/DD tool-functions when you're stranded to the ground with no aerial options. Pretty niche and cool to have a character like that. :D
Edit:
Other things.
- Grab, Smashes, and spaced F-tilts don't really make CC a good option against him, that's actually quite dangerous and I wouldn't suggest someone to do that against any decent Luigi. lol
- Combo's are easy on all of the cast. Down-B/U-air changes make free Up-B finishes and any mid-% on most characters, and simple throw > aerial chains like N-air > D-air/Misfire lead to good positioning and damage/kills at all % otherwise.
For some reason, it's neglected entirely as a Neutral-base to his game, even when his DD grab/u-smash/d-smash/pivot/f-tilt/etc game is great on its own, let alone in combination with WDing.
It's good Luigi has that commitment issue on WD, and that's why it shouldn't be so liberally used (saying it's a weakness is like saying Fox/Pika/other N-air planes suffer because N-air approaches are committing)
I'm pretty sure we've discussed this before (or at least I have with many), but this is why a good pivot game was BnB for top level Luigi in Melee, simply because it negated WD > DD > lack of control following up. This is also why it's so easy to navigate in Neutral in PM. You don't ever have to over-extend anything off WD's in PM. You can walk the other direction for a single frame and it halts all movement. He's not 100% focused around Wavedash (> Pivots) to space/create offense, and it's naive to think he is, this is kind of the bane of insight to Luigi-hood. His WD > DD Grab is the BnB approach, NOT WD > attack/grab/whatever straight away. DD is the Neutral, it's the approach, the offense... the WD just makes it a little scarier since he has the option IF it comes up to use it.
With shield push-back in PM, Luigi U-smashing or D-smashing an opponents shield will actually push him out of punishing range, oddly enough. It's really tricky to hit a Luigi if he Smashes your shield and isn'tsliding towards you with full momentum from a WD, which is silly and he shouldn't be doing that anyway. With momentum-halting on WD's, it's easy to space this, and even F-tilt becomes literally 100% safe on shields off any WD approach. This isn't off direct WD's (the 10 frame lag isn't a factor here), it's the moment after. The WD is a bait at most (sometimes can be the raw approach, but only when appropriate), given that it IS an option he can come at you, but the halt, the instant STOP at any point on the way, and the DD Grab/Smash threat to follow, THAT is Luigi's Neutral. AFTER the WD.
If WD is considered as Luigi's Neutral, than that's simply not talking about proper Luigi play. If WD isn't appropriate for the occasion (close quarters neutral game), then the DD Grab/F-tilt/Smash game is the Neutral, and the WD away (followed by a halt after a short distance, or a DD slightly back, or a WD back to the spot to bait or approach again) is simply a reset-option-WD and nothing more. WD is NOT core of the character's Neutral game, it's simply another tool he has. You might as well call it a short distance teleport. Not an approach, simply a long-distance positioning tool. Note: NOT an offensive or defensive tool, simply a tool to position himself FOR the Neutral game.
With that in application, ^ how would you consider his Neutral game, or what factors into it then? As most of the statements you (and many others about this character) commonly mention them, and yet they actually do NOT apply to the Luigi meta-game fore-front in terms of what makes the character good/bad. His neutral-game seems to be a very ill-conceived thing for most people.
Very true though, that is for sure the downfall of having such a fundamental reverse of WD/DD tool-functions when you're stranded to the ground with no aerial options. Pretty niche and cool to have a character like that. :D
Edit:
Other things.
- Grab, Smashes, and spaced F-tilts don't really make CC a good option against him, that's actually quite dangerous and I wouldn't suggest someone to do that against any decent Luigi. lol
- Combo's are easy on all of the cast. Down-B/U-air changes make free Up-B finishes and any mid-% on most characters, and simple throw > aerial chains like N-air > D-air/Misfire lead to good positioning and damage/kills at all % otherwise.
Walking to stop your momentum only works well (IIRC) if you are walking against the direction the Wavedash is going. Preferrably without turnaround as well, since that slows you down from walking. That doesn't really help for being precise when going in, but lets you try to space Ftilt tricky or reset yourself quicker if you WD backwards while facing forwards. You can DD after the WD in to stop yourself mostly, or pivot something, but not walking the same way.
WD is the core of his game. If you were to tell someone to use Luigi with no WD whatsoever, and try to beat a hard MU with merely DDing, pivots, and anything else he could muster, the character would utterly fail. He doesn't cover ground fast enough, or have a dominant DD --> Grab like Marth or Sheik, or enough range on his own to fly swat people that get near him. A character who thrives at hardcore close up combat, who stinks at physically getting to people, is not a good combination. It's his poor misfortune that the tool he has to do so isn't an amazing dash or air mobility, but a WD instead.
Everything you said about Pivots can be applied to other characters as well to add depth to their game. Marth with Pivot Dtilts and Fsmash, Sheik with very precise Pivot Ftilts out of dashes, etc. I mean, if we really were to go down the theory craft gauntlet and assume people are playing at a microscopic clean level, where you can near perfectly take into account your own positioning and theirs, and on the fly choose between pivots and non pivots without execution errors, Luigi would still be disadvantaged in many of these scenarios for needing the WD to compensate for his mobility issues (and to a lesser extend his range issues). For every tricky approach/pivot/mcsmashwavedashhashcrash Luigi has, I could probably craft a similar one for x character that wins.
As for CC, a lot of what he does you can CC at low %. Ftilt being kinda safe when spaced doesn't change that you can CC it and go punish. Same with aerials, jabs, Utilt, etc. You can also decide to get floored vs certain stuff instead of getting knocked up/juggled (usually vs his launchers). It's def something to take into account and can stop him from getting decent hits early on that would snowball in his favor quick. Misfire combos are scary if you have the charge, which is not the easiest thing to build up unless you're a cheesy guy onstage or something.
The depth he has in neutral could be 5x better if he didn't need to WD and was given greater mobility elsewhere. That's ultimately what it boils down to. You can't use the tools that every other character has (trying to bait with DD, pivot to space/trick, etc) to completely make up for the tools he lacks. Least not imo.
If I had to place him on the tier list, I would have him somewhere in the 20's out of our 30+ whatever characters. I'll take him any day over D3 or current ROB and stuff like that, but he's definitely struggling to be a breakthrough character.
WD is the core of his game. If you were to tell someone to use Luigi with no WD whatsoever, and try to beat a hard MU with merely DDing, pivots, and anything else he could muster, the character would utterly fail. He doesn't cover ground fast enough, or have a dominant DD --> Grab like Marth or Sheik, or enough range on his own to fly swat people that get near him. A character who thrives at hardcore close up combat, who stinks at physically getting to people, is not a good combination. It's his poor misfortune that the tool he has to do so isn't an amazing dash or air mobility, but a WD instead.
Everything you said about Pivots can be applied to other characters as well to add depth to their game. Marth with Pivot Dtilts and Fsmash, Sheik with very precise Pivot Ftilts out of dashes, etc. I mean, if we really were to go down the theory craft gauntlet and assume people are playing at a microscopic clean level, where you can near perfectly take into account your own positioning and theirs, and on the fly choose between pivots and non pivots without execution errors, Luigi would still be disadvantaged in many of these scenarios for needing the WD to compensate for his mobility issues (and to a lesser extend his range issues). For every tricky approach/pivot/mcsmashwavedashhashcrash Luigi has, I could probably craft a similar one for x character that wins.
As for CC, a lot of what he does you can CC at low %. Ftilt being kinda safe when spaced doesn't change that you can CC it and go punish. Same with aerials, jabs, Utilt, etc. You can also decide to get floored vs certain stuff instead of getting knocked up/juggled (usually vs his launchers). It's def something to take into account and can stop him from getting decent hits early on that would snowball in his favor quick. Misfire combos are scary if you have the charge, which is not the easiest thing to build up unless you're a cheesy guy onstage or something.
The depth he has in neutral could be 5x better if he didn't need to WD and was given greater mobility elsewhere. That's ultimately what it boils down to. You can't use the tools that every other character has (trying to bait with DD, pivot to space/trick, etc) to completely make up for the tools he lacks. Least not imo.
If I had to place him on the tier list, I would have him somewhere in the 20's out of our 30+ whatever characters. I'll take him any day over D3 or current ROB and stuff like that, but he's definitely struggling to be a breakthrough character.
metroid1117
Smash Master
Just curious, how do you (or any other player, for that matter) define "viable"? Do you mean that he has the capabilities to win a tournament by himself (no secondaries) or that he has no severely disadvantageous match-ups against characters that are common in the current metagame? Both statements go hand in hand to some extent, but IMO they're different enough to separate between the two.I'm not a fan of giving my character unnecessary buffs
Edit: Unless you mean I should push his metagame to the limit in which case...maybe.
Also, we need to record more videos so that you can show off how tricky your Link is to edgeguard >.>.
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
Characters with tethers SHOULD be tricky to edgeguard. I really need to work on my tether game.
Link should probably not win a tourney all by himself. Then again, BOOZER TO THE FACE! Link prob fits the second definition: have a hard time thinking of MU's that are so rough you would recommend not using Link
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
Why shouldn't any character be able to win a tourney by themselves? Isn't that sort of the goal?
DDD is trollish and funny, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't give him more tools.
Luigi's misfire is overall better in PM due to the roulette system PM has, but in Melee, it traveled faster. Changing it back to that speed would help him.
DDD is trollish and funny, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't give him more tools.
Luigi's misfire is overall better in PM due to the roulette system PM has, but in Melee, it traveled faster. Changing it back to that speed would help him.
DDD could probably be loads more viable solely on having some extra situations where waddle dash can get use
like, not TOO much b/c I don't want a waddle dash nerf train later on, but just some more spacing options with it would do wonders
like, not TOO much b/c I don't want a waddle dash nerf train later on, but just some more spacing options with it would do wonders
ItalianStallion
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, I love waddle-dashing with him, and it is really useful for his game, but maybe helping it out further would do the trick.
Hylian's link is not tricky to edgeguard because of tethers, but because of AGT bomb jumps. He's a beast at that ****.
I never want to edgeguard hylian out of fear that I will be frustrated beyond belief.
PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP
Hologram Summer Again
ugh how the **** do I waddle dash, I haven't been able to figure it out myself or find a decent tutorial