Tier List Speculation

[Yobolight]

Hey man, I don't want to step on anyone's toes, but M2K ridiculously good at Smash in general (like he can pick up a Smash 64 controller despite never ever playing the game and still win tournaments against everyone except the game's super elite players). Smash is all pretty much the same, with different risk reward ratios for various situations and different technical aspects and mechanics. In the end though, it can all be stripped down to a basic "Smash theory".

Therefore, M2K being the Smash savant he is (99% of players would get crushed by him every Smash game (Melee, 64, Brawl, PM, Smash Flash)) he can better determine the metagame implications more quickly.

Watching him play a game like PM is expressive of the degree to which he is incredible. He has to learn matchups on the fly against players who have spent more time in the game, thereby illustrating his grasp of basic Smash theory as opposed to hours of experience (which most PM players have 100x (some maybe 500x) more experience in the game than he has)

What I am trying to say is that M2K sees things we (even Strong Bad) cannot possibly see because he is just that incredible at Smash in general.

 

[Deleted member]

I do play characters that are more dependent on spacing and finesse, but I tested a good range of characters. Going for start-up was the best I could find, but that's fundamentally a bad strategy because it's inherently risky. When I was on Marth specifically, I was pretty much never able to punish MK fsmash no matter how poorly positioned it was. I was able to punish whatever the player did AFTER the fsmash, but that doesn't make it less stupid. The move is just really, really safe in a way that charging a smash in no-man's land shouldn't be.

 

[Shadow Huan]

interesting. I'm gonna go test that myself. sounds silly

 

[Scythe]

Get off m2ks ****, yer hurting him

 

[HyperrCrow]

I definitely believe M2K more than you about Wolf since relative to him you are a low level player in Smash, and he got 4th at the Big House 3 in PM with very little practice.

It doesn't feel fair for a lower skilled player to make judgements about the game when it has reached the advanced levels of M2K.

You don't see me making grand statement about the tier list because I am way worse than M2K.

Long story short, just get better at the game and quit criticizing people for their opinion.

wat

 

[Hylian]

I guess Shiek is low tier in PM because M2K thinks she's awful.

M2K also said GW was the best character in brawl at one point, as well as saying falco is broken in brawl many times etc etc. M2K tends to have knee-jerk reactions to thing and this has been true over the years. Just because someone is amazing at a game doesn't inherently mean they understand how it should be designed/balanced or that their opinions aren't skewed like anyone elses would be.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

M2K Hype.

If M2K were the savant you claim him to be, instead of just being good from lots of practice in Melee/Brawl, he'd have been able to pick up on Mario's play when he ditto'd Pikachad at The Big House and win dittos from his own savant level skill instead of needing Sheik and Fox and his old Melee experiences to stand a chance.

You can theorize and study theory all you like, but basic understanding won't help you to understand new match-ups or new characters that you don't get unless you get the experience with it. He's basically admitted to only really having experience in the game with the Melee vets, so there's no reason to assume that he knows everything about a character like Wolf, or anyone else at this point.


Anyways, I agree with Umbreon that MK's Fsmash feels a little silly. It's lightning fast, has pretty nice range and it seems to have very little punishing lag at the end. It feels like most of MK's ground game works like this, asides from his dash attack.

 

[Strong Badam]

I definitely believe M2K more than you about Wolf since relative to him you are a low level player in Smash, and he got 4th at the Big House 3 in PM with very little practice.

It doesn't feel fair for a lower skilled player to make judgements about the game when it has reached the advanced levels of M2K.

You don't see me making grand statement about the tier list because I am way worse than M2K.

Long story short, just get better at the game and quit criticizing people for their opinion.

like what even is this?
was i talking to mew2king?
is "i don't agree because x and y" criticizing someone?
what kind of nonsensical appeal to authority is this post?
big house 3 is literally the only major i haven't placed top 8 at in over a year. stop taking 1 tournament as the be all end all ranking of player skill. if you did, Kirk and Chad would be the only people we can listen to, and Hbox is absolutely trash at smash bros. neither of those statements are true.

 

[KayB]

I definitely believe M2K more than you about Wolf since relative to him you are a low level player in Smash, and he got 4th at the Big House 3 in PM with very little practice.

It doesn't feel fair for a lower skilled player to make judgements about the game when it has reached the advanced levels of M2K.

You don't see me making grand statement about the tier list because I am way worse than M2K.

Long story short, just get better at the game and quit criticizing people for their opinion.

Guy who designed the game VS Guy who plays it

Not exactly sure what the argument here is.

 

[Yobolight]

Guy who designed the game VS Guy who plays it

Not exactly sure what the argument here is.

LMAO, I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or not, but if you need proof that game developers are bad at their own games look up Sakurai playing Smash on Youtube.

Developers have a poor record of predicting the outcomes of their design choices (See Sonic in Project Melee 2.5)

 

[SpiderMad]

I think the correct answer to all of this is to ride MY ****. I predicted like 92% of everything that ever happened in P:M ever and even predicted Kirk winning BH3 as well as 3 other prominent leelue peso placed bets that came true. Plus I own a Wii

 

[Sarix]

That's also because in the production pipeline for a game there is no room for an active prototyping phase for ideas. Time constraints and budgets don't have the flexibility to accommodate it outside of using testers.

Most developers won't be good at their own games because they have to spend far more time improving their skills for the production pipeline and staying on top of technology's constant updates. None of them can hope to get a job without pushing their craft to the limits over playing games.

Anyone who seriously thinks game developers spend a lot of time playing games and can manage to make great assets, design massive worlds properly, or write a compelling story need a HUGE reality check.

Long story short, we DON'T and NEVER will have time to play or practice games like the average player and must make design choices based on what could work and only hope things go well post production.

 

[KayB]

LMAO, I am not sure if you are agreeing with me or not, but if you need proof that game developers are bad at their own games look up Sakurai playing Smash on Youtube.

Developers have a poor record of predicting the outcomes of their design choices (See Sonic in Project Melee 2.5)

My point is not if Strong Bad has more or less credibility than M2K (which honestly is a stupid argument to begin with), its the fact that you're completely disregarding someone's opinion even though he has enough experience for his to be more than valid.
Honestly,

It doesn't feel fair for a lower skilled player to make judgements about the game when it has reached the advanced levels of M2K.

You don't see me making grand statement about the tier list because I am way worse than M2K.

Long story short, just get better at the game and quit criticizing people for their opinion.

Why are you so afraid of saying you're own opinion? If this community was filled with people like you who won't state their judgements in fear of being criticized, the Smash scene would never have reached where it has now.

 

[GP&B]

Taking anyone's word as authority especially in a game with a severely underdeveloped meta is just a terrible idea in general. M2K is a smart guy who pours hours into his interests, but it doesn't suddenly make everyone else's opinion wrong. Everyone has a different way of approaching characters and the meta in general so we're inclined to agree and disagree on a lot of different things. I remember Mow used to hate the **** out of the Sheik changes, but he's come around to finding them overall better than the vanilla DThrow. It's really clear that everyone is responsible for pushing the metagame forward so it's counterproductive to be dismissive.

 

[Vashimus]

The word of Mew2King the Great is flawless and absolute. We know this because it says so in The Great and Infallible Book of M2K's Best and Most Truest Things that are Definitely True and Should Not Ever Be Questioned.

 

[Oro?!]

"Sheik is trash" "I know nothing about anything in this game besides melee characters because I can rely on fundamentals and 12 years of metagame that works on every character in Melee" "Wolf is the best character in the game"

Why would you listen to him lol.

 

[DMG]

Because... Melee?

 

[GHNeko]

Man.

I'd hate to get in the middle of all this, but this thread is terribly off track and it'd be nice if we could get back to the topic on hand.



Wolf has the potential to be really good, but how good? I mean, his moveset is plenty cohesive. Works super well, but it doesn't go to the same lengths that Fox and Falco do, like with how they dominate neutral for example, or how much easier it is to score kills. I also feel like Wolf requires more effort than those 2 to be successful, because his moveset doesnt reach such extreme length's of "really ****ing good"

 

[Nausicaa]

Taking anyone's word as authority especially in a game with a severely underdeveloped meta is just a terrible idea in general.

Hence why people ask for credentials from me when I post something even mildly critical or helpful in the form of a blanket statement about things as they are...
I mean... vids or not listening!

Your quote is truth though, for real.

 

[Deleted member]

I definitely believe M2K more than you about Wolf since relative to him you are a low level player in Smash, and he got 4th at the Big House 3 in PM with very little practice.

It doesn't feel fair for a lower skilled player to make judgements about the game when it has reached the advanced levels of M2K.

You don't see me making grand statement about the tier list because I am way worse than M2K.

Long story short, just get better at the game and quit criticizing people for their opinion.

This is the worst post I've seen in a long time because I can tell that you actually believe what you're saying.

I remember Mow used to hate the **** out of the Sheik changes, but he's come around to finding them overall better than the vanilla DThrow.

To be fair when I was saying this, it was right after Sheik was given PAL downthrow over her regular NTSC downthrow from melee but before the animation was sped up and her backthrow alteration was added. This meant that her throw game was 100% non-threatening in a game where a solid throw game is a necessity. She went from top tier to non-viable immediately. Had the character remained that way, I would still have that opinion. I only started playing PM again when I noticed that her throw game was fixed at APEX 2013. Prior to then, I promised not to play the game until the character was fixed, a promise I kept to the letter.

M2K also said GW was the best character in brawl at one point, as well as saying falco is broken in brawl many times etc etc.

To be fair, Brawl Falco is actually broken.

 

[Ariyo]

I vote Sheik gets falco's laser, Falco gets needles.

 

[GP&B]

EDIT: Strong Bad'd.

 

[Strong Badam]

there was no public release in which Sheik did not have either NTSC dthrow (demo 1.0) or PM's current implementation of dthrow/bthrow mixup (demos 2.0 and on). kind of annoying when people threaten to quit over things that are still "subject to change," even when they aren't even in a public release.

 

[Deleted member]

i had no idea what version it was since i never had the game prior to june this year, i just played it with other people when invited over or whatever. either way, i can still dislike something for what it is.

 

[Mew2King]

I actually would consider myself a top expert at PM, but it's due to the fact that I understand a lot from Melee/Brawl. The only thing I really lack is time spent with the differences (example: according to Plup, Ivysaur is the best character right now by far, but I never attempted to try to learn a character that I didn't already play super good in melee, so I never attempted to learn Ivysaur).

I spent about 8,000 hours playing all the characters in Melee in total give or take, and I understand MElee as a whole by far better than anyone in the world and I am 100% sure of this statement. Since so many characters are Melee characters with buffs/nerfs, I can come very close to complete mastery with them very quickly. I think Fox/Falco/Bowser are great characters for example (Bowser is my favorite to play fun-wise atm), but based off the Wolves I've fought (even before the Big house tourney, this just more solidified my opinion), I absolutely think Wolf is without a doubt a top tier character right now.

I'm basically saying if you guys are going to nerf the shine of Spacies then do the same exact thing to Wolf too because I think he's at least just as good as them (same for if you're nerfing attack power then do it for all 3 at least).

(But I kind of think just making the characters just slightly lighter would balance them without needing to change how they play.)

The problem is that we melee players already have such extensive mastery over fox/falco from melee that some of the top melee players are already close to complete mastery of our characters, yet can still fall short a lot. I've already logged like 1,000+ hours into fox easily and PM is so similar that it's easy to have super great mastery over him in PM for me already. I shouldn't be punished for this (Fox is definitely better in melee than PM btw but he's still very solid in PM; but the main reason I use him is because I already have played that character for 10 years now; the skill transfers, so I started at a great starting point in skill, and I invested into that character from there on because of it).

If these characters are nerfed too much, less Melee players will pick up the game. This is especially important with the common top tiers that would just enter anyway but only cuz they can play their best character the same. I know some people that have quit PM just because of their characters being nerfed too much in an update, or the spamming of nerfs in general.

This is a reason I believe sheik is so overrated (Sorry umbreon but I absolutely 100% disagree with your view on her, I only use sheik to 3 stock other sheiks in dittos in PM mostly or people that are really bad in the MU like dj nintendo). I feel like I'm almost at 100% complete mastery of Sheik but her risk/reward ratios in general just fall short. So many characters in PM simply outclass her, where as in Melee only spacies/puff outclass her. If you're not going to make her as good as she used to be then fine but what I am saying I definitely know is true after playing with her a lot. I'm mostly interested to see how Roy/MEwtwo are anyway since they're my favorite low tiers in Melee, although i feel mewtwos main buffs are to benefit the way taj plays (a more Nair-based style, a move i rarely ever use myself tbh), where as I do up smashes OOS and grabs and that style may not suit me well in project M, so we'll see what happens with that, but based on the footage i saw, the buffs benefit taj's style over mine although I haven't actually played him myself so it's hard to say right now obviously.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

That word you used a lot. "Master". I do not think you know what it means. I mean, you're a smart guy, and a hell of a smash player, but a complete "master" of all things smash, you are not. I saw Big House 3, and it's not like you won it. You can't even blame that on characters either, because you have a Bowser, and a Bowser player won the whole tourney.

I mean, how long did it take you to beat Hungrybox? Years? Surely it will take you some more time with PM before you actually have the wealth of knowledge you claim to have, after having only spent several hours with the game.

EDIT: There's also the fact that the game changes from update to update, so it's entirely possible that there are things you believe to be true (because maybe they once were), that aren't anymore.

 

[Mew2King]

Honestly it was mostly due to tourney choking. The reason I never use fox in melee is cuz I often care too much and then choke (hands do not do what I want). Big House was the first tourney in a long while where I didn't even care about losing, and just tried to play my best, and I played the same as in friendlies. I would have won many more sets in the past tbh if I just have been doing that all along, instead of caring about the money.

Btw Hylian, I also said Olimar/Diddy was top tier when others were putting olimar in low tier, right after the game came out, and I've been saying marth is 5th best in melee for a long time when he was put first almost solely due to me/ken for a period of time, and DDD was put 2nd/3rd by azen/chillin and others just because I was winning all the tourneys with him, and I said he was far worse than that, so it works both ways for sure.

I've spent a lot more than several hours, I've been to like 10 tourneys and I'm usually playing the game all day, and I've played it at 2 smashfests. It's hard to learn the game and MUs when it keeps changing all the time and players are punished for winning a lot, or people don't consider the fact that if you make a character idential or very similar to how they are in melee, and said person (like me), has played that character for 100/1,000ss of hours already, they would already start with near complete mastery of the character a lot of the time, as opposed to the other new characters (ZSS/Ivysaur/Wolf/etc) who are basically completely remade and probably still have untapped potential (despite how good they are right now already).

 

[batistabus]

I'm basically saying if you guys are going to nerf the shine of Spacies then do the same exact thing to Wolf too because I think he's at least just as good as them (same for if you're nerfing attack power then do it for all 3 at least).

To quote the official post about the nerfs to spacies:

1) Frame 1 invincibility on shines has been removed. As a note, this is also applied to Wolf.
2) Fox and Falco's laser damage decays with distance. Bear in mind, most lasers fired from short distances will see no change in damage. Since Wolf's laser already performs this way it has not been changed.

These are the only changes to spacies (aside from a few Falco Brawl things that haven't been fixed/attended to yet). Frame 1 invincibility means that the shine is still as fast as before except instead of being invincible, if a spacie is attacked on the same frame shine comes out, attacks will be traded instead. The shine will still work, you'll just get hit also.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Fair enough, but the point is that while you may be right about many things, you have been wrong before.

 

[Mew2King]

That word you used a lot. "Master". I do not think you know what it means. I mean, you're a smart guy, and a hell of a smash player, but a complete "master" of all things smash, you are not. I saw Big House 3, and it's not like you won it. You can't even blame that on characters either, because you have a Bowser, and a Bowser player won the whole tourney.

I mean, how long did it take you to beat Hungrybox? Years? Surely it will take you some more time with PM before you actually have the wealth of knowledge you claim to have, after having only spent several hours with the game.

EDIT: There's also the fact that the game changes from update to update, so it's entirely possible that there are things you believe to be true (because maybe they once were), that aren't anymore.

master means to do the best you can. I believe from playing Sheik so long that I can do the best I can with her already in many different situations, and, if necessary, I can write out IN DETAIL why and for different situations and throw a **** ton of numbers and risk/reward ratios at you if needed. I love bowser, I think he's good, not great. It would actually benefit me to say he should be nerfed since I'll probably be in seattle right after apex and gimpyfish would be one of my competition, but since I don't actually believe that, I'm not going to say something I don't believe. I wish I got to play him and didn't stupidly go sheik a lot (Except on fountain) or try to mario ditto (I thought I was good at it cuz of this even though I think I played slightly better here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1QNs48oeP0

My problem for years is caring about the money and hands choking cuz of caring too much, (mostly hand errors). It can be seen often with my marth/fox in any close game with armada all the time. It's easier to handle in Brawl by far since that game is mostly how lame you want to play and things buffer 9 or 10 frames and there's less tech skill so that happens far less in Brawl. I've known what to do for a long time but my mental blocks and caring too much have messed me up for a long time. I've always had that ability in friendlies though for years, and I say that with complete confidence.

Several hours is completely wrong since I played in like idk 10 tourneys and I play almost only PM for the entire day in friendlies, and been to 2 smashfests and watched some vids. It's also hard to learn the game when there's all these updates all the time to change everything and no one to play, but when it comes to smash theory I definitely can explain this in detail if needed (and I have in some places such as here - http://clashtournaments.com/?p=669

(I can link a lot more if you need me to).

batistabus - I already know of those things, but I hear they are being nerfed more and all I'm saying is do the same to wolf if that is what is going to happen otherwise he's going to become significantly better unless that's what you're all aiming for which is kind of lame to melee players that wanna pick up the game and stay using characters they've played for a long time

PrivateJoker - I never said I'm always right (but I am usually) but I am definitely willing to back my my statements with reasons, facts, and experience.

 

[Mew2King]

"Sheik is trash" "I know nothing about anything in this game besides melee characters because I can rely on fundamentals and 12 years of metagame that works on every character in Melee" "Wolf is the best character in the game"

Why would you listen to him lol.

didn't i beat you with a MU you've practiced a lot, in a MU I've never played before (literally).

 

[Zwarm]

didn't i beat you with a MU you've practiced a lot, in a MU I've never played before (literally).

The Oro classic suicides too strong

But yes, you did.

 

[Mew2King]

yea but if he's going to make a response like that "why would you listen to him", I must say that I understand smash to a far better degree than him I'm sure, so if he will make a post like that, I can respond in just the same way

(also most matches i see him he is SDing so this is normal for him, but he said "thank you" for going bowser then i said why and he said "zss destroys bowser", so I just played off of smash fundamentals and won).

 

[#HBC | Joker]

M2K, do you have any sort of tier list in mind for this game? Or at least a top10?

 

[Oro?!]

If you couldn't win off of fundamentals, then it wouldn't be a very good smash game, now would it?

Also I would MM that matchup for any amount of money next time I see you.

 

[Mew2King]

from what I've heard from plup, Ivysaur is the best, but PERSONALLY I have barely played that character so I can't say. Sheik is mid at best, Wolf is top (I think fox/falco are high/top), Lucas/Mario are definitely really good, Bowser is good, Sonic was nerfed too much, and it's hard to say after that because I haven't personally played many characters or don't have a strong opinion on many of them atm. Eventually in the future, if Roy/Mewtwo are good enough, I'll try to main those two and do cool stuff with them (assuming they stay good enough). I will probably do this right after Apex 2013 when i move to seattle with Vidjo (Which means I won't be traveling nearly as much anymore).

on that note we want to make two types of video games
1) 2D platformer (can use either 2d art or 3d art/models).
2) Smash type of fighter.

Vidjo is a game designer/programmer/modeler/artist (specializes in programming though), and if we get the necessary people need (mostly Artists) then we can make some pretty awesome games.

if you guys are interested, or know anyone interested that would want to make games with us, send us a message

www.facebook.com/mewtwoking
www.facebook.com/vidjo (2d and/or 3d can both work)
https://www.facebook.com/shephardlima (2d artists only)
https://www.facebook.com/AirDashOnline (3d modelers only)

and I'll get back to air dash online when mike lau realizes asking 300,000 dollars is too much

anyone interested should message all 4 of those pages I linked above (and tell your friends also).

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

didn't i beat you with a MU you've practiced a lot, in a MU I've never played before (literally).

Is that really grounds to believe blanket statements without any information informing them given with any degree of depth? I get that you're a really good player, but as mentioned, you're not infallible.

Just going by what you've said, shows that you've played Project M for about ten days, not ten full days, but ten days give or take with tournaments and friendlies. I'd estimate that to be around, what, maybe six to seven hours per tournament? I'm being generous, but I've no idea how long friendlies can go at these events. So you've played for maybe a work week plus overtime hours, over the course of the game's development? I'm not sure exactly what build you began playing Project M at, so you'll have to fill that blank in.

You've also mentioned that much of the time you're just playing with Melee vets, often with melee tops in tournaments because your skill transfers 100% or 90% depending on the characters, build, and changes said character might have received. Everytime you start stating things like "I beat you, therefore I know better than you" or "I'm the best", you come across like a know-it-all and it seems more than a little condescending. Honestly it sounds like you're trying to be the Kanye West of Smash Bros. Converse, don't assume that your Melee status transfers 100% to Project M, because it's a different game with different matc-ups and different characters.

Sure, Sheik isn't as good as she was in Melee, but she's also not as polarizing and damning to much of the cast as she was in that game, which makes what was once a game of "Don't get grabbed", into a game of Smash. It's more fair and better for the game as a whole to not have one character that can shut down more than half of the cast with one simplistic gesture. Not being able to do this certainly changes the manner in which she gets her kills, but does it really make her much worse?


Anyways....

What's the consensus of Ivysaur's kit? The little flower dino feels more than a little stupid to me, whether I'm playing against it or playing as it. I don't want to say Ivysaur feels broken, but it feels like it pushes the boundaries more than just a little bit with the way it fights.

 

[Mew2King]

No dude, it was in response to oro's post on me, saying stupid things then saying "Why would we listen to him", so I simply responded in the same condescending manner back to him, DELIBERATELY for that reason ALONE. I don't play ivysaur - ask Plup not me.

 

[ItalianStallion]

With 3.0 coming this winter, what do people think are the characters that may need some buffs? I think it was Nausica that said we should concern ourselves with characters that are too good, or not good enough. Characters that don't fall into those categories should be examined. I'm curious as which characters people feel need buffs.

 

[Oro?!]

You have valid opinions M2K... but thinking you are infallible because the beat people is the wrong way to approach it, don't you think? That's my main point of contention. You are drawing conclusions about characters with minimal metagame development out of the blue. Why is it that Kels who is not nearly as prolific in Melee as you are, beats Rat and Scythe with Sheik and Fox regularly. If you ask people who play PM regularly, they all believe Fox to be literally the best character in the game, and in fact better than Melee(sans I guess shine now but that hardly has an effect on most situations). It's also popular opinion that Sheik is one of the best characters in the game.

I honestly don't care to draw this out any further. You are clearly better than me, but if that's your contention for drawing conclusions on tier placement or matchup analysis, then I really don't want to waste my time arguing.