Tier List Speculation

[XalchemistX]

I had eggs breakfast. Woops wrong thread. Actualy it's relevant

 

[Ace55]

Let's hope the PMBR doesn't nerf Boozer in reaction to this.

If he ends up with a huge list of nerf-tweaks but blue fire on his neutral-b to compensate I'll be severely disappointed .

 

[Ripple]

I wish people got to see more of my DDD at big house. Top 16 for never practicing this game

 

[Viceversa96]

Yeah but I think Mario's wall jump recovery is too good. He gets an overwhelming advantage when playing on certain stages compared to others.

No they just don't know how to edgeguard it. At least it's not broken when he could INFINITELY wall jump. Plus Mario's up b has lag unlike Fox or Falco where as soon as they land they have almost no endlag.

 

[Spoon~]

Ripple with that inhale technology.

 

[DMG]

My friends saw you play on stream, they wondered what top 3 D3 player decided to show up.

 

[Shadow Huan]

But Sheik better watch out for Mewtwo. I've lost to too many Sheiks in my Melee days with Mewtwo. I can't wait to get my hands on PM Mewtwo to start my path of revenge.

you and i can finally agree on something for the first time in forever lol

since I was known in NE as a Mewtwo player (even though I always felt my Marth and Sheik were better) I would get requests to play.

overall how dumb is Sheik vs Mewtwo? I was playing casuals with a Sheik, I forget who, but he was loosing. after I won 4 or 5 games he finally asked for advice. I replied to stop thinking and just "do Sheik things". and he beat me the next 5 matches in a row.

I look forwards to vengance, beating Sheik players with Bowser before I stopped travelling didn't cut it

 

[KayB]

No they just don't know how to edgeguard it. At least it's not broken when he could INFINITELY wall jump. Plus Mario's up b has lag unlike Fox or Falco where as soon as they land they have almost no endlag.

You can't honestly say that Mario doesn't get the same recovery options on Dracula's castle compared to like Pokemon Stadium 2 and Battlefield.

 

[SpiderMad]

If MK had an element, it would probably be Light/Lightning

I would see a Darkness effect like Ganon's but in Cyan color with more Tron-likeness, and then a bit of yellow electricity mixed in

Every single person in the BR has a Wii.

I feel more qualified every day

 

[XalchemistX]

Let's hope the PMBR doesn't nerf Boozer in reaction to this.

If he ends up with a huge list of nerf-tweaks but blue fire on his neutral-b to compensate I'll be severely disappointed .

Boozer is so under powered. When I smash someone, it takes about 1.5 seconds for them to fly off the stage and die. It needs to be cut down to 0.0001 seconds

 

[Rat]

iirc SB once mentioned that wolf's what a balanced space animal would be. The more i play wolf, the less I think that's true. He's incredible.

Lots of people put him in the top 10. Imo He's better than Falco and probably top 3 or top 5. Atm, Wolf's meta is not quite there yet.

One thing holding him back is a fleshed out combo game. The optimal stuff has not been found or popularized yet. (Too many viable characters!) And what wolfs are doing now is already very strong.

But we'll see what happens. There's not a ton of anti-wolf tech yet. Especially with his recovery. His combo weight is a bit different than Fox/Falco and it catches people off guard.

 

[SpiderMad]

iirc SB once mentioned that wolf's what a balanced space animal would be. The more i play wolf, the less I think that's true. He's incredible.

Lots of people put him in the top 10. Imo He's better than Falco and probably top 3 or top 5. Atm, Wolf's meta is not quite there yet..

Really? Well now the question is then, what do we name his horror movie parody?

 

[Viceversa96]

After the end of PM grands and the Mewtwo trailer, the Melee commentary guys came on and immediately said that they think PM Bowser is clearly OP and should be toned down. It's like someone can't win a PM tourney because they are the best entrant, they can only win because of their character.

Melee purists. What can you do? Having only Fox and Falco as top tiers is the only way to please them

If Mario's recovery were to see a nerf, I'd just give it it's Melee walljump timing back. Perhaps a less ridiculous hitbox on the hand, and more proportional animations would do good as well. As for Falcon.....whoo boy. He feels like he was Sonic all this time, the way he just runs of like the "Boiling Man-Sauce", entity he is. I just really have learned to hate Falcon fights, and I just don't get that awesome power surge so many yearn for when they play him. It feels like nothing more than grab, down air, dash dance, neutral air, up air, back air, and knees. This may seem like a good list of moves, but most of his evasion, and defense in general, is just dashing around, and these moves make combos feel run of the mill to me. : /

(Just Do It from Kjab is still a good watch though, I don't know why.)

How come nobody wants to learn ****ing matchups. Mario is NOWHERE near being broken. His range is abysmal and he relies on grabs and fireballs which are predictable. Mario needs the good recovery he has now or else he'll fall down. There is this weird cycle where if this character does this good then they should get nerfed and I HATE THAT. Learn the matchup and stop ********.

 

[Viceversa96]

I'll still hold true that Mario's up-b wall jump recovery is stupid.

No. No it isn't. Again since people don't want to put in the work to LEARN how to edgeguard him. Everything has to easy huh? "Oh too hard to edgeguard nerf pls!" I HATE THAT LOGIC.

 

[Oro?!]

People call me crazy when I say Wolf is a lot of characters hardest matchups. I'm a Wolf main now, *******. Hawoolinois Wolf Pack rises again.

 

[trash?]

MK doesn't care too much about most space animal matches

except for wolf. kill all slow lasers forever

e: for context, wolf's lasers are clankable, but every single move except for dash attack is unclankable on MK, meaning you're staying to the ground and hoping you can approach properly via DAs and f-tilts, which is about as fun as it sounds

 

[BJN39]

Speaking of MK, I heard that if MK's sword moves were not transcending priority, they wouldn't work right.

How exactly do they not work, and how/why does one even code a character like that? It's just stupid. Also, is there any way around it see-able?

 

[Shadow Huan]

so what you guys are saying is that the balanced spacies would be amazing anyways if they were on Wolf's level.

take that melee players who are allergic to change

 

[Deleted member]

i think you guys over-estimate the people that don't want to see fox or falco change simply because of how they are in melee. maybe people don't want them changed because they think it's unnecessary, but i would say that the number of people that actually want PM to be melee 2.0 is alarmingly lower than these forums make it out to be.

 

[Viceversa96]

This thread is now confusing me.

 

[Archangel]

i think you guys over-estimate the people that don't want to see fox or falco change simply because of how they are in melee. maybe people don't want them changed because they think it's unnecessary, but i would say that the number of people that actually want PM to be melee 2.0 is alarmingly lower than these forums make it out to be.

^ this.

 

[GunBlaze]

i think you guys over-estimate the people that don't want to see fox or falco change simply because of how they are in melee. maybe people don't want them changed because they think it's unnecessary, but i would say that the number of people that actually want PM to be melee 2.0 is alarmingly lower than these forums make it out to be.

Based Umbreon is based.

 

[MagnesD3]

I like Melee 2 (PM), not Melee 2.0.

 

[jayeldeee]

It's called Project Melee for a reason. Not Exact Copy of Melee on Brawl. Otherwise just get out the GC man.

 

[Archangel]

I don't understand why there is so much hate for a game that is in large part responsible for this game...more than in large part. Minus melee's existence I don't even think this forum would exist.

 

[CyberZixx]

I mainly see hate for the spacies over general dislike of Melee.

 

[jayeldeee]

I don't understand why there is so much hate for a game that is in large part responsible for this game...more than in large part. Minus melee's existence I don't even think this forum would exist.

Lol, for a second, I thought you were talking about Brawl Minus and I was thinking, "There should be a forum for it!" and then realized I read this completely wrong. Grammar my man (although I suck at it, LOL). And it was my fault too. But I got all excited for a Brawl Minus forum.

 

[Archangel]

I mainly see hate for the spacies over general dislike of Melee.

well it's hate for melee hidden behind hate for spacies. At least that is the way it comes out. Might as well start calling people the N word or something. It's like this...

"We think spacies are too much and can't be beat in the highest level of PM" ~ Person 1

"I don't agree, I think spacies as they are have enough competition in PM and more is on the rise as new characters and buffed characters emerge. So far, they haven't proven themselves unbeatable" ~ Person 2

"SHUT THE **** UP YOU ****ING MELEE PLAYER!!!!!" ~Person 1.

Honestly it's starting to make me kind of sick to my stomach. If I were a mod I'd take things like this more seriously. Instead, many of them have joined in....smh.

"If you want to destroy a community, allow hatred to flourish." ~ Archangel 2013

 

[Nguz95]

Honestly I would have been fine with Melee 2.0. However, the PMBR decided to go above and beyond that. To me, all the rest is gravy.

That being said, the success of this game depends on its relationship with Melee's success. If Melee were to fall off the face of the earth like many fighting games have done over the years, Project M would be damaged horribly. Melee is currently at its height of popularity. It's surge in participation and stature has propelled Project M to the forefront of the competitive scene. While this is encouraging, it is important to note that Project M's success is inherently tied to Melee. Because of this, Project M is in a unique position. It needs to offer everything Melee does and more. That means keeping the most successful, popular Melee veterans as close to their roots as possible while still keeping them viable is essential. This also means making the transition between the two games as painless as possible. Moving from Melee Mario to PM Mario is easy and refreshing. Every strength of Melee Mario has been retained, but he has had his weaknesses mitigated. For characters that have very few weaknesses (read: Melee top 3), keeping the transition smooth is equally important. However, this entails simply replicating the character instead of mitigating his weaknesses.

In my opinion, altering those characters significantly endangers the relationship between the two games. Whether this is a good thing or not is difficult to say; however, I believe that maintaining the status quo is necessary until the game has acquired an identity that doesn't hinge on Melee's success. Time will tell if Melee continues to be a strong force in the fighting game community. It could be argued that Melee's metagame is close to being exhausted, and once players discover all there is to discover about the game interest will begin to wane. I personally feel that Melee will continue to grow for as long as the current top 4 (M2K, Hbox, Dr. Pee Pee, Mango) are still playing. How long this will be, I don't know, but I am almost certain that Melee will either see a plateau in interest or will begin to decline once they retire. For now, I think it is in Project M's best interest to maintain its relationship with Melee so it can feed off of its popularity. Once Melee hits a wall, I think it will be time for Project M to assume the mantel of the premiere smash game. Then the PMBR will have complete control of the metagame, and will be free to bring the Melee top 3 back down to earth. In the meantime, I think any changes to the top 3 will only be detrimental.

Thoughts?

 

[CyberZixx]

well it's hate for melee hidden behind hate for spacies. At least that is the way it comes out. Might as well start calling people the N word or something. It's like this...

"We think spacies are too much and can't be beat in the highest level of PM" ~ Person 1

"I don't agree, I think spacies as they are have enough competition in PM and more is on the rise as new characters and buffed characters emerge. So far, they haven't proven themselves unbeatable" ~ Person 2

"SHUT THE **** UP YOU ****ING MELEE PLAYER!!!!!" ~Person 1.

Honestly it's starting to make me kind of sick to my stomach. If I were a mod I'd take things like this more seriously. Instead, many of them have joined in....smh.

"If you want to destroy a community, allow hatred to flourish." ~ Archangel 2013

I like melee more than PM overall and I think Spacies design is silly so I am on the change them camp. I don't like it when either side of a argument takes it to extremes and attacks the person instead of merely disagreeing.

 

[KayB]

No. No it isn't. Again since people don't want to put in the work to LEARN how to edgeguard him. Everything has to easy huh? "Oh too hard to edgeguard nerf pls!" I HATE THAT LOGIC.

It doesn't matter if its possible to edgeguard. The fact that you can recover from ridiculous distances and use fireballs to cover yourself is already hard enough to edgeguard. Is it possible to edgeguard? Of course it is. But Mario already has an incredible ground game and can already cover enough of a distance recovering without his up-b wall jump. There needs to be a balance between the two. I find it borderline insulting that just because I don't agree with you with this one thing (that I also supported with points I might add), I automatically think that everything in this game has to be easy mode and I don't know any better. That logic is even more disrespectful and I'd rather you just talk normally with written points instead of jumping to conclusions about my personality or the way I play.

Melee purists. What can you do? Having only Fox and Falco as top tiers is the only way to please them

If I remember, you were one of the first who complained when you found out that Fox and Falco lost their invincibility on their shines.

 

[MagnesD3]

I just wanted to say PM is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

[trash?]

Might as well start calling people the N word or something

internalized racism to happen over centuries upon centuries of time: basically the same thing as disliking a videogame character

 

[Viceversa96]

It doesn't matter if its possible to edgeguard. The fact that you can recovery from ridiculous distances and use fireballs to cover yourself is already hard enough to edgeguard. Is it possible to edgeguard? Of course it is. But Mario already has an incredible ground game and can already cover enough of a distance recovering without his up-b wall jump. There needs to be a balance between the two. I find it borderline insulting that just because I don't agree with you with this one thing (that I also supported with points I might add), I automatically think that I think that everything in this game has to be easy mode. That logic is even more disrespectful and I'd rather you just talk normally with written points instead of jumping to conclusions about my personality or the way I play.


If I remember, you were one of the first who complained when you found out that Fox and Falco lost their invincibility on their shines.

You got me there lol . But I agree that Fox/Falco need some tweaks. Mario already has the two weaknesses of range and very linear approach.

 

[CyberZixx]

You got me there lol . But I agree that Fox/Falco need some tweaks. Mario already has the two weaknesses of range and very linear approach.

A character having weaknessess does not exclud them from being altered. It is all about their overall design. Last patch characters such as Charizard got tweaks and he is much worse than Mario.

 

[Viceversa96]

A character having weaknessess does not exclud them from being altered. It is all about their overall design. Last patch characters such as Charizard got tweaks and he is much worse than Mario.

But there isn't anything overpowered about Mario. He seems to be the most balanced.

 

[CyberZixx]

But there isn't anything overpowered about Mario. He seems to be the most balanced.

Define balanced. I think Mario is easily one of the best characters in the game and far better than the lower characters.

 

[KayB]

How come nobody wants to learn ****ing matchups. Mario is NOWHERE near being broken. His range is abysmal and he relies on grabs and fireballs which are predictable. Mario needs the good recovery he has now or else he'll fall down. There is this weird cycle where if this character does this good then they should get nerfed and I HATE THAT. Learn the matchup and stop *****ing.

I also want to add that if this is your impression on the character, you must play against terrible Marios.

 

[Spiffykins]

People call me crazy when I say Wolf is a lot of characters hardest matchups. I'm a Wolf main now, *****es. Hawoolinois Wolf Pack rises again.

Who here thinks Wolf isn't high tier? Let's kick up some ****.

Also, no "chaingrabs + being worse than falco/fox = low tier" BS allowed.

 

[Nguz95]

So we're not going to talk about my thoughtful, informative post that defended the spacies' status as the best in the game?

Jk. To be serious, I think Wolf lacks a move with crazy priority (Falco dair) and doesn't have an incredible projectile. He does, however, have longer, more nuanced recovery than both of the other spacies, so there is that. He's a dirty character, but he's just one peg below Fox and Falco.