Tier List Speculation

[KayB]

Wolf doesn't need to be better. Its Fox and Falco that need to be toned down.

 

[Nguz95]

Wolf doesn't need to be better. Its Fox and Falco that need to be toned down.

You should read my post and make a response... Please don't state opinions without backing them up with evidence. Conversations flounder that way.

 

[Spiffykins]

So we're not going to talk about my thoughtful, informative post that defended the spacies' status as the best in the game?

Jk. To be serious, I think Wolf lacks a move with crazy priority (Falco dair) and doesn't have an incredible projectile. He does, however, have longer, more nuanced recovery than both of the other spacies, so there is that. He's a dirty character, but he's just one peg below Fox and Falco.

Wolf's lasers can lock you down way harder than Falco's, clanking be damned.

 

[KayB]

You should read my post and make a response... Please don't state opinions without backing them up with evidence. Conversations flounder that way.

I was sort of under the impression that most people want Fox and Falco nerfed, and that it would be silly to create another character at that same level. But I'll elaborate. I think people will agree with me that Falco's priority on dair and lasers are among some of the more broken things in his tool set. That's sort of what I believe what we're trying to avoid with other characters; something that's broken. Besides, Wolf still has a very good projectile. Rat and Scythe both exclusively used Wolf and nearly made it to Top 8 in Big House 3. Both players also fought Mew2King in Big House 3, but only Rat beat Mew2King. The main difference between the matches were the use of projectiles. Rat's laser was able to help his approach and spacing game, while Scythe rarely used any at all and was beaten in the end. I also think that an insane priority move would help, but I don't think its necessary. Wolf is very fast, has a projectile, has a pretty good recovery, and has a very good combo game. He already has enough; giving something with that much priority would honestly at this point break him, especially considering how high Wolfs placed in BH3.

So yeah, there's my evidence I guess.

 

[Nguz95]

I was sort of under the impression that most people want Fox and Falco nerfed, and that it would be silly to create another character at that same level. But I'll elaborate. I think people will agree with me that Falco's priority on dair and lasers are among some of the more broken things in his tool set. That's sort of what I believe what we're trying to avoid with other characters; something that's broken. Besides, Wolf still has a very good projectile. Rat and Scythe both exclusively used Wolf and nearly made it to Top 8 in Big House 3. Both players also fought Mew2King in Big House 3, but only Rat beat Mew2King. The main difference between the matches were the use of projectiles. Rat's laser was able to help his approach and spacing game, while Scythe rarely used any at all and was beaten in the end. I also think that an insane priority move would help, but I don't think its necessary. Wolf is very fast, has a projectile, has a pretty good recovery, and has a very good combo game. He already has enough; giving something with that much priority would honestly at this point break him, especially considering how high Wolfs placed in BH3.

So yeah, there's my evidence I guess.

Looks good to me. I personally think Wolf is well balanced and is pretty close to being a finished product. Falco's lasers definitely lock down people more than Wolf's by virtue of their range and speed, and Falco's dair is about as good as it gets in terms of aerials. In these categories, Wolf is very sensibly balanced. His lasers occupy a large amount of space, but they move slowly and have slow range. They are clearly intended to apply pressure through their presence rather than providing a quick, difficult to avoid bout of hitstun. Wolf's dair is a meteor, which is important because it can be canceled. Falco doesn't have to worry about this, as his dair is a spike. These are sensible aspects of his game that keep him from being broken. His combo game, as you alluded, is very strong, and I think we have yet to see his full potential in that category. I personally like where he is now.

Many members of the PMBR have said that characters are all about design, not viability. They have said that strength comes from good design, which is why they aren't so focused on relative character strength. I think that Wolf is a character that falls under the category of good design. Fox and Falco unfortunately don't fall under that category, but, as I've stated before, I don't think changing them significantly is healthy for the game.

 

[KayB]

Looks good to me. I personally think Wolf is well balanced and is pretty close to being a finished product. Falco's lasers definitely lock down people more than Wolf's by virtue of their range and speed, and Falco's dair is about as good as it gets in terms of aerials. In these categories, Wolf is very sensibly balanced. His lasers occupy a large amount of space, but they move slowly and have slow range. They are clearly intended to apply pressure through their presence rather than providing a quick, difficult to avoid bout of hitstun. Wolf's dair is a meteor, which is important because it can be canceled. Falco doesn't have to worry about this, as his dair is a spike. These are sensible aspects of his game that keep him from being broken. His combo game, as you alluded, is very strong, and I think we have yet to see his full potential in that category. I personally like where he is now.

Many members of the PMBR have said that characters are all about design, not viability. They have said that strength comes from good design, which is why they aren't so focused on relative character strength. I think that Wolf is a character that falls under the category of good design. Fox and Falco unfortunately don't fall under that category, but, as I've stated before, I don't think changing them significantly is healthy for the game.

I pretty much agree with almost everything you said. I'm not sure where I personally stand in the whole Fox and Falco nerf debate, I'm sort of mixed.

 

[Deleted member]

It's called Project Melee for a reason. Not Exact Copy of Melee on Brawl. Otherwise just get out the GC man.

The name of it is Project M by the way.

I'm starting to think that MK's fsmash is a little too safe to reasonably deal with. I can't find a reliable way for half the cast to deal with it even from a poor position, which is a little suspect.

 

[CyberZixx]

The name of it is Project M by the way.

I'm starting to think that MK's fsmash is a little too safe to reasonably deal with. I can't find a reliable way for half the cast to deal with it even from a poor position, which is a little suspect.

How spacing dependent is that?

 

[Nausicaa]

Edge-guard Mario by reading my last couple posts. OR, grab the ledge and bait out the wall-jump, then punish him for it. Him (Ivy and others) have a good mix, but it's limited, abuse the limits.

Beat Bowser by reading my last couple posts. OR, throw him off stage and gimp, take away his positional advantages rather than combo him to oblivion, and hit him in the face with spaced stuff he can't deal with. He can't deal with much, btw.

It's funny how everyone playing Wolf is still terrible at Wolf, and yet my half-joking remarks about Wolf being the best spacie way back in the 2.1 days are almost being hinted at.

M2K spelled out Sheik again, but in a more specific weakness way. Combine his posts with mine about meta-game development, and you'll understand why Sheik is weak.

In other news, Lucas and Luigi are godly.

 

[Oracle]

^^^ thats what Im saying! if you can't hit him out of the startup you just have to wait for him to finish and reset. its almost never punishable

 

[Oracle]

ughhhhhh smashboards

 

[Nguz95]

The name of it is Project M by the way.

I'm starting to think that MK's fsmash is a little too safe to reasonably deal with. I can't find a reliable way for half the cast to deal with it even from a poor position, which is a little suspect.

It's like Mario's fsmash lol.

 

[jayeldeee]

The name of it is Project M by the way.

Yes, it is. I'm aware of that. I guess instincts of seeing Project M and Melee together made me think of calling it that I guess, lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

iirc SB once mentioned that wolf's what a balanced space animal would be. The more i play wolf, the less I think that's true. He's incredible.

Lots of people put him in the top 10. Imo He's better than Falco and probably top 3 or top 5. Atm, Wolf's meta is not quite there yet.

One thing holding him back is a fleshed out combo game. The optimal stuff has not been found or popularized yet. (Too many viable characters!) And what wolfs are doing now is already very strong.

But we'll see what happens. There's not a ton of anti-wolf tech yet. Especially with his recovery. His combo weight is a bit different than Fox/Falco and it catches people off guard.

Wolf is balanced not in how good he is at winning, but at whether or not the tools he has break the game. Fox and Falco's do (as I and many others have explained countless times before), Wolf's don't. Wolf is amazing despite this. And that's amazing.
I think he can be better than Falco if you're running a terribad stagelist. But good ones, no, Falco's definitely better.

Wolf's lasers can lock you down way harder than Falco's, clanking be damned.

I don't agree AT ALL. Falco's lasers are objectively less committal (5 frames less landlag and you can shoot them as high as you want to without worrying about timing your waveland) and they pressure from the entire stage's horizontal distance. Wolf's are solid when he's up close, but do approximately nothing from far away. And clanking with them is really good, depending on the MU you can pretty much punish him for event hinking about lasering especially if you're a sword character.

 

[Scythe]

I was sort of under the impression that most people want Fox and Falco nerfed, and that it would be silly to create another character at that same level. But I'll elaborate. I think people will agree with me that Falco's priority on dair and lasers are among some of the more broken things in his tool set. That's sort of what I believe what we're trying to avoid with other characters; something that's broken. Besides, Wolf still has a very good projectile. Rat and Scythe both exclusively used Wolf and nearly made it to Top 8 in Big House 3. Both players also fought Mew2King in Big House 3, but only Rat beat Mew2King. The main difference between the matches were the use of projectiles. Rat's laser was able to help his approach and spacing game, while Scythe rarely used any at all and was beaten in the end. I also think that an insane priority move would help, but I don't think its necessary. Wolf is very fast, has a projectile, has a pretty good recovery, and has a very good combo game. He already has enough; giving something with that much priority would honestly at this point break him, especially considering how high Wolfs placed in BH3.

So yeah, there's my evidence I guess.

rat didn't have to face m2k's fox : /
but yeah i should laser more, i've known this lol

 

[Spiffykins]

Wolf is balanced not in how good he is at winning, but at whether or not the tools he has break the game. Fox and Falco's do (as I and many others have explained countless times before), Wolf's don't. Wolf is amazing despite this. And that's amazing.
I think he can be better than Falco if you're running a terribad stagelist. But good ones, no, Falco's definitely better.

I don't agree AT ALL. Falco's lasers are objectively less committal (5 frames less landlag and you can shoot them as high as you want to without worrying about timing your waveland) and they pressure from the entire stage's horizontal distance. Wolf's are solid when he's up close, but do approximately nothing from far away. And clanking with them is really good, depending on the MU you can pretty much punish him for event hinking about lasering especially if you're a sword character.

Hmm. I didn't say anything about all that. I do think Falco's lasers are better because of the reasons you listed, but because Wolf can stack them as close as you want, he can (not necessarily 'will') lock you down harder than Falco if he hits with one.

This ties into a trend I've been seeing for quite some time, where Wolf is considered worse than Fox and Falco in every way. I think this attitude does not do the character justice, and I'd like to see more consideration for his positives in addition to his negatives in comparison.

 

[Oro?!]

Wolf's combo tree is much more versatile than a Fox or a Falco could ever be. The amount of threat moves he possesses at virtually every percent on virtually every character is insane. The problem is that all of his options are not broken to an extent (except dash attack and shine past CC percents) where he is able to basically force his will on his opponents as easily as Fox or Falco. So eventually I expect Wolf's punish game to surpass Fox/Falco overall, but his ability to start that combo or get that lead in won't come nearly as easily after people learn to deal with Wolf's better approaching options. Just my .02$

 

[Mew2King]

So what characters beat wolf and how'

and what are all the best strats to beat him

and the main things to look out for, counter, and how to counter them?

i do think he's mega mega mega underrated and super top tier (I have thought this since the first wolf I ever played in PM btw and never swayed in my opinion of him being top tier) but i also will admit I know more about fox/falco than wolf obviously so ill try to hear things first. I use like every melee character in PM pretty much (easier to learn fast), altho in the future we'll see what happens I don't rly know who to use in PM I generally messed around with every melee char mostly.

btw for my opinion on bowser, i think he's good, not great, but my favorite (fun-wise, the same as mewtwo/roy are for me in melee) to play since he edge guards well and feels good when you do it. I beat Bowser by camping/spacing and his recovery is freaking horrendous but he FEELS SO GOOD IF HE HITS YOU and if u dont know his gimmicks they'll get u.

 

[jayeldeee]

Well, Super Arcade is having a PM tourney on Oct 27th now, so maybe all your spacie talks might be more relevant after play here. Or not. We'll see.

 

[trash?]

does socal even play P:M consistently

like I'm pretty sure the only players I know of that came from there just play melee and thus play their melee characters to victory

 

[Shadow Huan]

for the record, when I say that I want Fox and Falco changed, I actually want them "normalized" and balanced rather than nerfed.

2.1 Ike was normalized, 2.1 Lucario was nerfed (pretty bigtime too)... to me there's a difference anyways lol

I have to look up Rat's Wolf, sounds amazing. maybe some strats to borrow lol

 

[Archangel]

for the record, when I say that I want Fox and Falco changed, I actually want them "normalized" and balanced rather than nerfed.

2.1 Ike was normalized, 2.1 Lucario was nerfed (pretty bigtime too)... to me there's a difference anyways lol

I have to look up Rat's Wolf, sounds amazing. maybe some strats to borrow lol

good point, Although 2.5 Ike seemed nerfed as well I think 2.6 Ike is normalized. Still a very good point probably the point I've been wanting to make myself.

Everyone's been saying they want Falco/Fox Normalized because their design is "Silly" Yet nobody is putting out in the open what changes they want to the character most of it is just nerf them they are dumb. What I'm asking is for some people to define normalization. I would rather avoid the backlash of a 3.0 release featuring fox/falco that are worse than current Sonic.

 

[Juushichi]

You must not be reading a bunch of threads, because they have already been posting potential changes to him so far for a long time, Archangel.

Umbreon has posted his changes that I honestly support a lot in multiple threads, most notably in the P:M Fox boards themselves.

 

[Archangel]

You must not be reading a bunch of threads, because they have already been posting potential changes to him so far for a long time, Archangel.

Umbreon has posted his changes that I honestly support a lot in multiple threads, most notably in the P:M Fox boards themselves.

the only thread I semi-read was that one I assisted in getting closed. Which became more or less a war of wills and anything constructive was lost in the shuffle.

I'll go check it out.

 

[DMG]

I have to look up Rat's Wolf, sounds amazing. maybe some strats to borrow lol

You have no idea. Dude is mad good and is getting better from what I saw/since I got to play him. Wolf's getting scarier as people flesh out his combo game.

 

[Nguz95]

It's all about Chilllindude.

 

[Viceversa96]

I also want to add that if this is your impression on the character, you must play against terrible Marios.

I do lol. But he isn't broken Kayb. While I agree there are characters who aren't up to par with him. He is well designed and I believe he should just stay how he is. Also I'm really sorry for assuming things about I'm not afraid to admit it. It's just there is this cycle where if a character does well he or she gets nerfs because there overpowered and it's not because of the player's skill. But I'm sorry for assuming that you are one of those people. Can you please forgive me?

 

[Plum]

You have no idea. Dude is mad good and is getting better from what I saw/since I got to play him. Wolf's getting scarier as people flesh out his combo game.

Personally, I think he has the scariest combo game among the entire roster.
It feels like regardless of the percent or opposing character, he has options to combo you.

I'm just thankful that his neutral game isn't Fox/Falco level.

 

[Deleted member]

mario's fsmash is pretty safe too, but it's much more spacing dependent and slower characters can still get in on it from poor positioning...decently. i seriously don't see how half the cast punishes MK fsmash.

 

[KayB]

I do lol. But he isn't broken Kayb. While I agree there are characters who aren't up to par with him. He is well designed and I believe he should just stay how he is. Also I'm really sorry for assuming things about I'm not afraid to admit it. It's just there is this cycle where if a character does well he or she gets nerfs because there overpowered and it's not because of the player's skill. But I'm sorry for assuming that you are one of those people. Can you please forgive me?

I still think his recovery is better than it should be. I think most will agree that his recovery is already above average with the distance he's able to cover and his ability to use fireballs to approach the ledge. Like I said, Mario's ground game is very good, and he needs a good recovery (which he already has before the wall jump-b), not an amazing one; at the very least, the timing of the wall jump should be stricter. The fact that he also gets such polarizing advantages in different stages isn't something I really think is a good trait to have.

 

[Viceversa96]

mario's fsmash is pretty safe too, but it's much more spacing dependent and slower characters can still get in on it from poor positioning...decently. i seriously don't see how half the cast punishes MK fsmash.

Do you mean it's hard to punish MK's and Mario's Fsmash on block? Because I think that has to do with the shield mechanics not working like Melee. Shields get pushed much farther in this game which is one thing M2K is complaining about.

 

[DMG]

Depends on what you mean by punish it. I'm guessing using Fsmash on shield or using it as an edge guard. In the right situations sure, it's a very limiting move. But it's not that bad to deal with overall onstage: you got 20+ projectile users and a few crazy people who can outrange it normally. Unless a character is stripped of a ton of options and is very limited in the scenarios you are talking about vs MK, it's not *that* crazy of a move to deal with. People would have spammed it awhile ago like Brawl Tornado if it was hard to deal with.

Like, the move is pretty safe in that vacuum moment after startup. But he can't maintain that safety by repeatedly using it or exploiting it in some way. You're possibly giving up free space and time for the person to maneuver around instead of pressuring them with a decently scary character. Idk, not what I would want to do onstage UNLESS again if we're only talking about situations like edge guarding with Fsmash or catching landings or x scenario that already constrains the other character. In those cases, it's purty gewd

 

[Deleted member]

Do you mean it's hard to punish MK's and Mario's Fsmash on block? Because I think that has to do with the shield mechanics not working like Melee. Shields get pushed much farther in this game which is one thing M2K is complaining about.

i'm not sure.

like i don't expect to be able to punish marth or mario fsmash tip on block, but thats the reward for good placement. i mean i can run up to MK, block the fsmash, and be unable to punish it despite putting myself in a good position to do so. jumping over it at SH height is equally precarious because it hits high. challenging it for a clash or a trade is...no. dashing in during lag is only possible for a few characters.

idk. move is devastating, cool, but it feels way too safe.

edit: throwing projectiles as your recommended way to punish a charging smash from neutral is more evidence that the move is stupid imo

 

[DMG]

No, the move would be stupid if you could use it repeatedly with little variation in timing or positioning, and the other guy being unable to punish it. If you're using Fsmash repeatedly in neutral, projectiles are a pretty decent answer to that. Heck if you do it too much/pattern, you could just whack him out of start up if you have cajones.

If you're using it at random, sure you can't always be prepared with a projectile or x option to beat it, but sporadic use wouldn't really strain the game would it? Like if you chose it 3-4 times throughout the whole match, you're probably not going to destroy some MU because you were totally safe (or most likely safe) for those few moments.

I'm not saying the move is easy to dismantle, but I can't think of a way to consistently abuse that in some way that makes the game unfun or hurts MU's or something lame.

 

[Viceversa96]

i'm not sure.

like i don't expect to be able to punish marth or mario fsmash tip on block, but thats the reward for good placement. i mean i can run up to MK, block the fsmash, and be unable to punish it despite putting myself in a good position to do so. jumping over it at SH height is equally precarious because it hits high. challenging it for a clash or a trade is...no. dashing in during lag is only possible for a few characters.

idk. move is devastating, cool, but it feels way too safe.

edit: throwing projectiles as your recommended way to punish a charging smash from neutral is more evidence that the move is stupid imo

He still has transcendent right? If he does I think projectile can punish but I do agree it needs a tweak. I think I'll do some testing.

 

[A Revelation]

i'm not sure.

like i don't expect to be able to punish marth or mario fsmash tip on block, but thats the reward for good placement. i mean i can run up to MK, block the fsmash, and be unable to punish it despite putting myself in a good position to do so. jumping over it at SH height is equally precarious because it hits high. challenging it for a clash or a trade is...no. dashing in during lag is only possible for a few characters.

idk. move is devastating, cool, but it feels way too safe.

edit: throwing projectiles as your recommended way to punish a charging smash from neutral is more evidence that the move is stupid imo

Couldn't you pressure after a whiff?
If he's still transcedent maybe you could swing a disjointed hitbox if you have any. You won't clank.
If he's spamming it maybe you should take to the air a little more to whiff punish from higher up.
Armor it if you can.
Hit him with a projectile.
Pull out his controller.
If you're a zoning/space type character couldn't you just take the time and get your optimal spacing?
Just because you can't hit him directly (which a lot of the cast can possibly do in theory) doesn't mean you can't punish him.
Not sure about project M because of shield pushback but you can always punish Marth's tip on block in Melee.
It might be possible if you have a fast spotdodget to spotdodge it and swing. (i.e: Fox spotdodges and Shines)
If it's safe on block at the tip then his spacing is rewarded. Nothing wrong with that.
Lol if he's charging it full jump fastfall. That isn't so hard unless you're trying to punish from 10 miles away.

A lot of these options aren't available to every character though so pick one that works and practice, instead of immediately thinking it's stupid.

 

[Yobolight]

Wolf is balanced not in how good he is at winning, but at whether or not the tools he has break the game. Fox and Falco's do (as I and many others have explained countless times before), Wolf's don't. Wolf is amazing despite this. And that's amazing.
But good ones, no, Falco's definitely better.

I definitely believe M2K more than you about Wolf since relative to him you are a low level player in Smash, and he got 4th at the Big House 3 in PM with very little practice.

It doesn't feel fair for a lower skilled player to make judgements about the game when it has reached the advanced levels of M2K.

You don't see me making grand statement about the tier list because I am way worse than M2K.

Long story short, just get better at the game and quit criticizing people for their opinion.

 

[Shadow Huan]

betcha Strong Bad is better than you lol

m2k asked for advice on how to fight Wolf, therefore implying that he doesn't know the matchup... actually, he outright stated that he doesn't know the matchup.

since he is the definition of "M2k level" as you put it, if once he learns the matchup/how to fight the character at the level that he fights the Melee spacies and he still thinks that Wolf is too good then it'll peak my interest at least, and likely the PMBR.

if he hasn't already gotten thier attention. no one but the PMBR knows lol

 

[Archangel]

Mew2king is by a far margin the highest level Melee player here nobody is arguing that. However, This isn't Melee this is Project M. Mew2king probably knows everything about Melee I don't think you should favor his words in a game that he admittedly knows little about. As he said, placing 4th was all a matter of carry over melee skills and info. He is by no means an expert in Project M.

With that said, It doesn't mean he should be dismissed entirely. Since Melee is the foundation PM is being built on it might be a good idea to at least look into things that Silent Wolf/M2K players say.

 

[Shadow Huan]

also @ Metaknight fsmash discussion, can't you grab trade, or sidestep OoS -> grab to punish? or would that be character dependant?

and yeah, M2k is amazing lol. Wolf players should beware once he gets fighting one down