Tier List Speculation

[Zwarm]

Ganon needs no changes as long as the Arty vortex exists

 

[Scythe]

If you mean tilts or WL options are underused, then I totally agree. Ftilt for like Best Ganon Move lol.

it's the vortex! arty is so ahead of the meta-game right now.

 

[Archangel]

marth absolutely has a crappy OOS game.

not to nitpick but yeah not even close.

I think his OoS game is limited. If he had bad range and grab range then it would be crappy.

 

[Nausicaa]

And at last we come to the inevitable prime example of why I rarely bother reasoning with people around here. Next time I'll just do what everyone else does and pass the time with snide remarks until the next update comes.

Have fun baiting someone else next time. Home-slice.

That wasn't a bait of any sort, I'm simply trying to help.

Here's what I was trying to point out in very simple terms.
1) Falcon cannot land straight Knees in the Neutral game at a top level of play. (There's just no way this ever happens outside of very rare/niche situations)
2) Falcon landing straight Knees is easier (for formality sake I'll use this word) than Lucas landing straight B-airs. (Everything from having less speed to being more limited in utility/risky if missed/etc plays a role here)
3) Lucas landing straight B-airs at a top level of play being less functional than Knees, which are already not functional, is simply indicating that there's no way that it's their place. (Outside of those very rare/niche situations, though for him they would be in pressure rather than raw free punishes/hard reads < even rarer)

With that, if you genuinely think B-air is a Neutral tool based off what you've seen/what you've thought, more than a finisher of sorts, that's completely fine, whatever floats your boat.
If you catch up and see some more modern play, or ever use/see it used in some other form (Reverse B-air or Magnet-Turn B-air as a finishers, which have are just as consistent through all patches so far) then cool. I'm just suggesting that you keep you eyes open for it, as this is something people are only recently seeing at all. Just because people didn't see it then, doesn't mean it wasn't there. That's all.

We're on the same team. Don't get so huffy. <3

Nausicca: What hasn't sunk in with the Ganon meta? Because Aerial Side B is overall a pretty crappy option.

Because Ganon moves so slow horizontally in the air in general, and takes time to do the "usual" options when jumping, people tend to pay attention the second you leave the ground. There's not many viable mixups or variable timings you can apply in neutral, that should scare the other person or pressure them into getting hit by the move. Late Nairs are probably more viable overall than that option because you at least cover decent range very quickly, instead of covering no range for a short time and then "floating" at them with a hand that may or may not get them (with tons of lag afterwards)

If Aerial Side B landing lag was buffed, it would still be pretty risky to throw out and would still tend to lose to a lot of simple things like rolling (if you don't have a sucky roll). Ganon already has such a hard time with people repositioning back when he picks a movement option, that I feel like you'd be hard pressed to land the move more unless he travelled faster or acted quicker. Those are buffs I would be scared to give his Aerial Side B.


If you mean tilts or WL options are underused, then I totally agree. Ftilt for like Best Ganon Move lol. Angle it downwards and give people the "Stanky Leg".

I'm pretty sure WL Tilts/etc are being incorporated slowly. A LOT of 'good' stuff is underused (see Lucas discussion above even) with all characters for the most part though.

I'm mainly talking about using it once you DO get some form of positional advantage. Side-B while coming down from a jump, similar to an empty SH > WL > Tilt/Grab, but the tool being use-able as an Grab while still visually in the air gives some dynamics beyound Aerial/WL Attack vs WL Grab. It's like the 4th block he's missing, and it's awesome that it's there now, but all too often people are in that 'too far to Aerial' position but 'too close to WL safely into something' area, and Aerial Side-B breaks shields. It's just an option, and even if most stuff (if not everything by Ganon because he takes 2 years to do anything) is easy to react to, at least having his tools safer to use is still in Ganon-flavor, RATHER than "That ONE option that you can't react to" which would totally be not his 'thing' haha. Leave that to Dash-Attack. XD

If anything, having that as a somewhat safe option that gives him that horizontal threat will be the thing that actually applies the 'pressure' needed to land everything else.

Otherwise, if Ganon needs help, what to do?
What to do that does NOT break the flavor of the character. (The last thing I want is a Ganon that can Wizard Kick horizontally mid-air and combo from it... like the Side-B buff-style you just mentioned)


Edit: Archangel put it well for the Marth OOS thing. He has solid OOS options, WD, Grab, F-air, and Up-B alone, given that's literally 100% all he'll ever want to do when he's NOT in his Shield, is limited on paper, and all he could ask for in the world in practicality.
What more could he want? Something that blows people up behind him and combos/sets up tech-chases for free like a Peach N-air? A fast hard-hix-box that hits upward and instant KO's like a Fox U-Smash? Like seriously...

 

[Deleted member]

when you block, you're trying to mitigate your opponent's potency against you because you're at a minor positional disadvantage. what you ideally want is a safe move to get you out of that position like sheik's nair or fox's shine OOS. marth has nothing like that, just lots of risky ways to OOS that are all very punishable. since it's better for marth to move than it is to block, he ends up using lots of shield mechanics but actually using his shield to block very little. if your character never wants to have to block to begin with, that's pretty indicative of a poor shield game imo.

 

[DMG]

^^^

It's not too bad since Marth has the big wang sword and positioning, but he doesn't want to be forced shielding. Your best option is grab or roll away which could be said for a few people.

 

[Archangel]

Yeah, well worded that way then I agree it does become terrible. Considering his best usages of shield involve shielding very little. Peach can wait all day and time a DJC Nair OoS.

Marth can Jump Fair/Bair OoS but it doesn't compare. He can also Wavedash OoS instead of rolling to give himself a better chance....but aside from that he's nothing special. I'll put it this way. He's got the worst OoS game of any of the best characters in Melee. Issues like this make me believe that as new characters and buffed melee characters figure out the Marth MU...he's in trouble.

 

[DMG]

More like he has to try harder, instead of being in massive trouble. It's not suddenly as if the existence of MK or X character completely flipped him on his side! (Charizard can die tho, Oracle is the future ACCEPT IT)

Marth still feels pretty comfortable vs a lot of MU's. Don't write him off as the inevitable decline people like Jiggs and Falcon faced: they don't have l33t swerds

 

[Plum]

marth can't even ph1r3 though
it's like why even bother

 

[DMG]

Roy fired all over the screen, in a blazing glory















And then he pulled out his sword

 

[Archangel]

More like he has to try harder, instead of being in massive trouble. It's not suddenly as if the existence of MK or X character completely flipped him on his side! (Charizard can die tho, Oracle is the future ACCEPT IT)

Marth still feels pretty comfortable vs a lot of MU's. Don't write him off as the inevitable decline people like Jiggs and Falcon faced: they don't have l33t swerds

I didn't say massive trouble I said trouble. Trying hard isn't an issue at all. In fact you could say Marth's position has been threatened even in Melee as a result of other people trying harder with other characters. In the past few years the top Marth's world-wide have dropped games to the likes of Link, Bowser, DK, Kirby, Luigi, Doc, Ganon, Samus, Peach, Falcon,Yoshi and IC's. and this is in Melee where he sits at a somewhat uncomfortable 5th place. Tradition seeming to keep him at fixed top 5 spot but the feeling is Marth is underperforming as a character compared to everyone near his level or below him in Melee. The last hope for a Marth only player is PPU and we'll see how that goes....

Now, Considering he's largely unchanged....I believe that once the PM's ball gets rolling Marth players will have to try harder although it's more likely that they'll pick up someone else. After all, when you have to try 2 times as hard as the next guy with your character that usually implies that said character isn't that good right? I'm not saying Marth sucks because he doesn't. If you no how to use Marth he does extremely well again the baby development of most characters in PM. Characters that at a high level gave him trouble are now buffed(Mario/doc fusion and Captain Falcon come to mind along with peach, ganon, link..etc). I also think that he has a far easier time tech-chasing in this game than he does in melee...but that's do to something that as far as I know is being worked on. Once techs work the way they do in melee, once light-shields or something like them show up....suddenly things get more complicated for Marth. I think his current course has him destined to be lower mid-tier.

 

[NeonApophis]

Tether (iow slow) grab + slow up smash + up b that's useless OOS + 5 frame jump start + no super fast aerial option = bad OOS game. Having a great wavedash is pretty much the one thing he has going for him, but he's still really susceptible to shield pressure.

He's not the best at getting out of shield pressure, but he has pk burst as long as you've charged your OU (which you should do at the start of every stock unless you are likely to kill your opponent with your invincibility, in which case you still charge once you've killed them). His jump squat is actually 4 frames, and the burst gives you intangibility on frame 2, so you're only vulnerable for 5 frames when you time this correctly. Magnet out of shield isn't the fastest (first hitbox on frame 9 after starting your jump), but it has pretty good range and leads into all of Lucas's ridiculous combos, so it can be a good option if your opponent's character doesn't have amazing shield pressure.

 

[Babatunde]

Yeah, well worded that way then I agree it does become terrible. Considering his best usages of shield involve shielding very little. Peach can wait all day and time a DJC Nair OoS.

FC Nair oos @ lowpercents doe, Can you say free 40% Guarenteed followup with Dsmash ^_^

 

[| Kailex |]

How about, everyone is right on the internet? Is this discussion over? Did I win?

 

[Nausicaa]

I approach with Shield using Marth, and worse, Falcon (lol) all day.
Love the stuff. Dare people to try spacing a Grab on reaction against my in-coming elimination of their stocks.

Superlateedit: 2 things

1) Poor Penguin
Why does it seem like every conversation is indirectly implying that Dedede sucks?
Poor OOS options, because all he has is Grab + kind of Aerials... basically just like Marth but without the whole mobility chunk. Which factors in (along with being huge) that he can get stuck in his shield a lot WITHOUT choice, and can't actually get an advantage from it since it actually hinders whatever mobility he DOES have since access to WD isn't exactly something he cares about regarding Neutral.
It's like... is there a contest on linearity and being limited (especially on paper)? Another Trophy for Dedede.

2) Ooh a piece of Candy
I don't think there's a more distinguished thing in all of Smash that you can literally see people go 'Ooh a piece of candy, Ooh a piece of candy, Ooh a piece of candy' with their ACTIONS alone, then Falcon going Dash > Shield > Dash in Neutral.
Like really, if that bubble shows up even for a flash-moment while he's moving around... it triggers something in people. lol
If there's a more effective (safe, tempting/attention grabbing of the opponent, and eerily threatening to fall for) bait in the entire game, someone needs share it with me. I'm sure there are, but I can't think of them right now, and I love me one of them Smash-induced inward-laughs Oon a piece of candy... AHHHH GRABKNEEGRABKNEEBLASTZONE!!!

 

[Archangel]

So, Who's got a new/updated 2.6 list since 2.6 is coming to an end soon. Should I post mine?

 

[Archangel]

So, Who's got a new/updated 2.6 list since 2.6 is coming to an end soon. Should I post mine?


goddamn it! double posts!

 

[RPGsFTW]

So, Who's got a new/updated 2.6 list since 2.6 is coming to an end soon. Should I post mine?

We still have all of November until the next update, so I think you've still got time to think. All I know is I'm really tired of Fox and Falco's stupid neutral game going from ******* around to them destroying you in the blink of an eye with little effort.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

All I know is I'm really tired of Fox and Falco's stupid neutral game going from ****ing around to them destroying you in the blink of an eye with little effort.

Well, what is "little effort," exactly?

 

[DMG]

PRESS DOWN B WIN

I guess?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is "little effort," now that I think about it--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzGFooXC-1U

 

[DMG]

What about SDI away instead of up? Wouldn't that be a bit safer? I knew about PSing already because Atomsk consistently does it (can even do it 70% of the time on Wifi) and it annoys me to no end lol

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That's probably even more effective, yeah. You don't even have to worry about gravity in that scenario. I was specifically asked about SDI'ing up being possible before making that video, is the thing.

 

[DMG]

ic ic. Rolling away should also take care of aerial Side B

 

[Nausicaa]

Any knock-back growth on that allowing it to have less effect (regarding CCing) or something at higher%? (those this would make it easier for upward SDI)

 

[Oracle]

Sdi up is risky because if ness knows youre gonna do that he can stomp you back into the fire and youre back at square 1. Most effective imo is to shield and buffer a roll, which can be baited out but at least youre not on fire.

Go figure people in awestins region are good at not getting pk fired (unless im zard)

 

[Babatunde]

Ness stomps people in the nuts, den into hell. It's too stronk.......

 

[ELI-mination]

Hey guys Ness is overpowe..... oh wait.

 

[DMG]

Ness op wins tournaments buff Fox nerf Roy

 

[Tlock]

All I know is I'm really tired of Fox and Falco's stupid neutral game going from ****ing around to them destroying you in the blink of an eye with little effort.

You do not know much apparently.

 

[Nguz95]

You do not know much apparently.

Hey hey, lets not do that kind of thing around here ok?

 

[Archangel]

We still have all of November until the next update, so I think you've still got time to think. All I know is I'm really tired of Fox and Falco's stupid neutral game going from ****ing around to them destroying you in the blink of an eye with little effort.

Fox and Falco are good in the neutral position. They destroy me though...not really. I don't see how spacies are considered...almost better in PM then they are in Melee. Learn the MUs man...it's beyond doable in PM.

 

[DMG]

Fox *might* overall be better in PM than Melee for having easier execution and more stage CP's (the points people have made about boundaries, especially ceilings, is one we should probably address).

 

[Archangel]

Fox *might* overall be better in PM than Melee for having easier execution and more stage CP's (the points people have made about boundaries, especially ceilings, is one we should probably address).

I've was bedeviled by fox, falco, and even the other great characters for a long time because they had the ability to play around my understanding of the game when in the hands of someone I didn't feel was as good as me. However, when taking a closer look I realized I was the problem. As good as fox/falco are. As ahead of most characters their designs seem to be in the end it comes down to who is holding the controller. The opponent and yourself are to blame for the outcome in the end. Especially in PM where there is no more Pichu, there is no more "BAD" to hide behind. Most of the characters in this game are currently on par with the top 8 in melee. That considering half of those characters are extremely new and some unlike any we've seen before in a melee setting. Fox, Falco...yeah they win alot but they lose more. For every 1 spacie that places top 10 in a big event 50 of them don't make it out of pools. They cast a wide net and they are designed better than anybody else in Melee. I've yet to see hard evidence of their dominance in Project M continuing aside from a few disgruntle and frustrated people who refuse to look in the mirror and face the fact that they are being out played not out picked.

Maybe in 2.0-2.1 you could've made the argument. Next to Ike, Spacies had won many PM events but PM was still very new. techniques and strategies were/are still being learned and many people were slow to put their feet in the water when it came to the new characters. I'm even guilty of that, As I pursued improvement with pit I ran into trouble often and when I did I retreated to safety, what was known. Fox, Falco, Sheik, Falcon, and my melee main Marth more than anyone else. However after over 1 year and 1/2 I've reached a point where I'm more comfortable with Pit than I am with Marth who I've main'd in melee since 2008. We've seen many before and since the release of 2.6 who play non spacie or even non melee characters and have not only rivaled their success but done BETTER in tournament.

so once again...I remain baffled by this notion that spacies still beat everyone easily when It isn't actually happening. Hax running a train on many players that are considered Elite while having not really played the game suggests to me that you(when I say you I mean the PM community) need to study and train. Work as hard as you can to improve yourself and advance your characters because Hax stomped on everyone with a man who many see as mid tier or lower. This once again confirmed my thought that it's not just M2K with fox it's a skill gap between the perhaps good and the very good. I suggest working to close that gap yourself, not trying to manipulate the game to give your character an edge over something that you don't have the fortitude to overcome.

my 2 cents.

 

[DMG]

I'm not saying Fox or Falco are impossible to beat. Falco is worse off than his Melee self (I don't think anyone has argued that he's better besides minor points like DACUS or RAR), Fox may be better off than his Melee self though strictly as a character. Not talking about MU's spreads or other characters, just game compared to game. Fox in PM feels easier to use, and tends to enjoy the larger/diverse stage list. If you want to make a point that Charizard or Ike or X character has been given the tools to beat Spaceis, I'm not contesting that or even talking about that. Fox does feel like a better character/easier character in PM, and if the rest of the cast is catching up that's dandy.

 

[Deleted member]

Fox *might* overall be better in PM than Melee for having easier execution and more stage CP's (the points people have made about boundaries, especially ceilings, is one we should probably address).

PM fox is definitely better than melee fox, but there's enough of a cast re-balance where i personally don't think it's problematic. if we were going to nerf fox though, i've already posted ideal changes and explanations for those changes several times. i think we can comfortably say that fox is accounted for overall.

 

[Scythe]

honestly i've felt that people have overrated falco a bit in this game but fox def is the best no question. His momentum on running up smash is nuts.

 

[DMG]

Shield pushback makes Usmash so much safer than it should be. I can't wait for pushback to be fixed in general.

 

[KayB]

Pushback is probably the thing I hate the most about PM right now. Imo, it's one of PM's largest flaws.

 

[Xebenkeck]

This is "little effort," now that I think about it--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzGFooXC-1U

Yes, waste your Double Jumps, your all falling into the master plan, tehehehehehehehe.