Tier List Speculation

[Nausicaa]

Believe in Batman
Nice list.

 

[ItalianStallion]

Zard is too low on that list.

 

[DMG]

Some tier lists have peach placed low and some have her placed high. I don't know what to believe!

Believe in the heart of the cards!

My 2.6b tier list.

Top
1 Fox - Good man very good
2 Falco - Flaco slightly overrated in this game but I weel accept dis
3 Wolf - Wolf lacks some of the same dominant traits in neutral that the other Spacies have, drop a bit
4 Snake - Solid character but he's not this strong. Has hard MU's with plenty of characters listed under him, and doesn't have strong approaching tools. I would place him under Sheik, Marth, Ivy, and MK in a revised list.
5 Shiek - Up goes the Sheik
6 Wario
7 Mario - Near perfect spot once 2-3 people move over him
8 Marth - I would put him over Mario
9 Peach - Ivy is def better than Peach at this point

High
10 Ivy - Swap Peach and Ivy, and move Ivy + Marth over Mario
11 Pit
12 MK - Possibly better than Pit and Peach
13 Falcon
14 Lucas
15 Bowser
16 Lucario
17 Sonic

Mid
18 Puff
19 ZZS
20 Rob - Not that decent, a bit gimmicky at this point. DK and Ike over ROB
21 Ike - ^^^
22 Donky Kong - ^^^^
23 Luigi
24 Link
25 Ness
26 G&W

Low
27 Zelda
28 Charizard - Bit low, should be closer to Lucario
29 Pikachu - Should be closer to Luigi/Link
30 Diddy Kong - I dunno if he's this poopie but
31 Toon Link
32 Squirtle
33 DDD
34 Ganondorf

Don't have comments on the rest really. Just added my thoughts to the side of characters I felt deserved it.

 

[Szion]

I'd put falco top tier
Lucario high tier
charizard mid tier
GW bottom tier

 

[Phaiyte]

Bowser def doesn't belong near the bottom lol

 

[DMG]

Um, what lists in the past 2 pages have placed Bowser near the bottom? I see lists putting him above the average cast placement.

 

[Nguz95]

I think Bowser is really unique, and a lot of people just haven't figured out how to play him. Once a lot of people start picking him up, I think the metagame against him will start to develop more and we'll see him drop some.

 

[Scythe]

that's what people said like a year ago

 

[Nguz95]

I still see people going spacies on him expecting that to work, so I don't think they have tried to adapt too much.

 

[Scythe]

spacies do work tho

 

[NightShadow6]

Ganon/Charizard/Falcon would probably be solid counters as well.

 

[Nausicaa]

Your avatar is too high to be listed.

 

[SixSaw]

I'm not seeing what Falcon has in PM to warrant being above average, honestly. Sure, his solid matchups with fellow melee high tiers remain relatively intact, but I feel like he has too many match-ups with newcomers that border on hard counters (Lucario, ugghhhhh), plus some new mechanics like increased shield pushback and more prevalent crouch canceling do a real number on his general usefulness.

At least he absolutely bodies Bowser, for what that's worth.

 

[GP&B]

Shield pushback is something that's intended to be fixed down the line.

 

[Cuccu Maestro]

I hope the fact that that nerfs the **** outta diddy isn't overlooked.

Edit: I am referring to shield pushback, in case that wasn't obvious. Diddy relies on this for shield pressure with grounded bananas in order to maintain momentum, quite a bit.

 

[Nazo]

Sonic is a tad bit too high.

 

[Viceversa96]

I'm a bit new to the meta game :] but I like PM and I waaaaant to help.
3. Kirk played a bowser that was really taking advantage of bowser's strengths and that's great. However, a lot of his opponents were not prepared to fight a bowser and fell into some situations that I think can avoided. Good super armor usage is something that did not exist in melee.

I think things might be harder for our hero kirk in the future simply because bowser is not as well equipment to fight as say fox or marth but he is very well equipment to surprise you.

I am no master of strategy. I am excited to see what you guys think and how this game develops over time.

I completely agree. I really feel that most of the players losing to Kirk didn't know what they were doing. Kirk is good but I know that if Hbox or M2K knew the MU they could've won. Bowser is so easy to bait.

 

[| Kailex |]

I still know nothing about mu's other than the fact that there are fast fallers, floaties, and others in between

 

[KayB]

Bowser is so easy to bait.

Woah, slow down there.

 

[Viceversa96]

Woah, slow down there.

 

[Burnsy]

I think Bowser is really unique, and a lot of people just haven't figured out how to play him. Once a lot of people start picking him up, I think the metagame against him will start to develop more and we'll see him drop some.

What exactly is there to "figure out" about an up-b that is invincible frames 1-4 and hits frame 5. Bowser has plenty of very positive attributes on himself and his moves that are completely solid and are intentionally designed as tools for dealing with his weaknesses.

Just because Bowser isnt like any other character thats been successful in smash, doesnt mean that what he is relying on is necessarily gimmicky. Maybe the brute force tactic is just stronger than its ever been?

I agree that he could drop from peoples high tiers, but I have seen plenty of people say that they expect him to drop all the way to low tier and to me that claim just ignores a lot of Bowsers positive qualities or their usefulness.

*Edit*
Regarding Tlocks list, I disagree with a few things, but in particular I wanted to mention that Luigi is too high. He should be top of your low tier at best. Ridiculously disadvantaged at Neutral, and he probably isn't going to be comboing you to death very consistently if you have any inkling of how to DI. He also lacks an adequate edgeguarding/gimping game to make up for his ****ty neutral.

 

[Juushichi]

I think in TLock's list, Bowser is about 6 spots away from where he'll probably end up.

Falcon is probably on the border between mid and mid high in terms of a tier list, I think. GnW's placement is pretty much perfect.

I still have to think on Low Tier, but there are some characters in TLock's that probably don't deserve being there. Ganondorf is definitely down there, though.

 

[Burnsy]

Squirtle doesn't belong in low tier either, he should be behind Link in that list. People will probably keep putting him in the lowest positions until a top Melee player loses to one on a national stream because the player lacked MU experience. Or until people stop ignoring his positive qualities because "muh range" and "SDing is so easy, he's impossible to control !"

Also, there is no way Luigi has a better MU spread than Squirtle.

 

[Scythe]

I completely agree. I really feel that most of the players losing to Kirk didn't know what they were doing. Kirk is good but I know that if Hbox or M2K knew the MU they could've won. Bowser is so easy to bait.

Kirks beaten hbox two years in a row and hbox plays against plup down in florida. Also Kirk didn't even face m2k. Aaand wekcome to pm where people hardly know matchups anyway

 

[TheReflexWonder]

No, Squirtle's just...not so hot. I would generally agree with the idea that people will stop putting him low when a top Melee player loses to him in a national, because I don't ever see that happening. :x

 

[Burnsy]

Can you be more in-depth? Its been a while since I've seen an opinion from you on the matter that is more than simply "Squirtle sucks."

 

[KayB]

Can you be more in-depth? Its been a while since I've seen an opinion from you on the matter that is more than simply "Squirtle sucks."

I think he said before the Squirtle relies to much on gimmicks.

I sort of agree to an extent. Squirtle has plenty of good moves, but some others after some time will substantially wear down in effectiveness.

 

[Burnsy]

Examples of gimmicky Squirtle moves (other than Dsmash, which I know is solid despite the fact that I use it in a gimmicky way)?

If you are talking about moves with armor, I dont see anything gimmicky about armoring through up-bs with a semi-spike Nair.

Do people get hits with his side-b in neutral way too often in this metagame? Oh hell yes. Sometimes they get hit by it from full stage lmao. Does it mean that none of his other moves are worth using, or that once people know how to deal with side-b they'll never fall for it again? Not at all.

 

[Strong Badam]

Kirks beaten hbox two years in a row and hbox plays against plup down in florida. Also Kirk didn't even face m2k. Aaand wekcome to pm where people hardly know matchups anyway

I still feel like Kirk beating Hbox twice isn't indicative of much about Bowser other than he has an even or slightly advantaged MU against Jigglypuff, which isn't really new information. Hbox's Mario is definitely solid but clearly not on par with his Puff. And Kirk is godlike. Armada has beaten Hbox like 3 times with Young Link before, it doesn't make YL a good character.
Bowser's solid and has a chance against most of the good characters but yeah I think there's a decent number of better characters at the moment. I'm not sure if the "Bowser is going to go down as people learn how to fight him" sentiment is entirely true, but it's certainly accurate to state that his metagame at the moment leaves little room for improvement, and that the same cannot be said about the anti-Bowser metagame or metagames of other characters in general.

 

[Viceversa96]

I still feel like Kirk beating Hbox twice isn't indicative of much about Bowser other than he has a even or slightly advantaged MU against Jigglypuff, which isn't really new information. Hbox's Mario is definitely solid but clearly not on par with his Puff. And Kirk is godlike. Armada has beaten Hbox like 3 times with Young Link before, it doesn't make YL a good character.
Bowser's solid and has a chance against most of the good characters but yeah I think there's a decent number of better characters at the moment. I'm not sure if the "Bowser is going to go down as people learn how to fight him" sentiment is entirely true, but it's certainly accurate to state that his metagame at the moment leaves little room for improvement, and that the same cannot be said about the anti-Bowser metagame or metagames of other characters in general.

Fierce *****!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, I was just asked about it via Skype, so, I figure I can at least copy-paste that much. Of course, this is all my opinion, and I speak as a PM player, rather than a PMBR member.

[1:58:23 PM] I think he's bottom 5, no doubt.
[1:59:21 PM] A lot of it feels like he doesn't get enough off successful exchanges.
[1:59:51 PM] A lot of it is that I feel his ability to misdirect for approaching is very limited against a competent player willing to lame Squirtle out.
[2:01:03 PM] His dash speed and dashdance stuff blows.
[2:01:40 PM] I think the current Squirtle has some potential, but not in the way that people are playing him.
[2:02:07 PM] I think his niche is playing what would be primarily a camping game.
[2:02:32 PM] His misdirection stuff seems way more effective when you're making the opponent come to you.
[2:03:12 PM] Because people can move backward way more effectively than he is able to move forward, but his spacing tools work really well when he's on the other side of that.
[2:04:16 PM] His B moves are incredibly good for playing defensively, and he gets a lot of mileage on them that way.
[2:04:40 PM] His general poking tools have low lag and set up for stuff well, but he struggles to get in to do that.
[2:04:54 PM] But making people come to him mitigates a lot of those glaring weaknesses.
[2:06:40 PM] He doesn't hit particularly hard, he has bad range, inflexible approach tools, he doesn't have a very good recovery, he's light...
[2:08:05 PM] A lot of the nuances that made him good in Brawl no longer apply, whether it's because his moves were changed or because the rest of the game changed.
[2:09:03 PM] And he doesn't -have- to play like Brawl Squirtle to be good, of course, but I don't feel like he's gotten any killer apps in exchange. He's just...there.
[2:16:48 PM] He loses in many situations to opponents' superior hitbox placement, and he loses to superior speed/mobility, so I feel that bruteforcing through most offensive Squirtle stuff is actually a reasonable option for opponents.
[2:17:22 PM] But it's way more reliable to wait for Squirtle to bumble his way toward you and then pick him apart with your tools.

 

[DMG]

I like that description. "Wait for Squirtle to bumble his way".

What I would do with Squirtle? Leave 80% of the character alone maybe, and start buffing small things about him. By that, I mean please take away Water Gun or revamp it to be something useful.

Possibly buff Bubble Beam on the ground or give it some use besides niche "I'm in the air and I don't like you".

(The below text is stuff that would change Squirtle quite a bit. Would not be minor at all. Just clarifying)



Make his aerials... different from each other. I don't know how to exactly put it, but his aerials seem way too similar to each other in general terms. I'll go down the list:

1. None of his aerials spike or meteor (not that he necessarily needs that, but it's something a lot of characters get on an aerial)

2. Bair, Nair, and Fair all kind of send people... away... a bit. Strong and Weak hits don't feel drastically different from each other move to move (Weak hit Fair vs Weak hit Bair for example, look at how similar it feels). He has 3 different moves to accomplish just about the same thing. SURE, there are teeny tiny nuances between the moves, but for the most part he has 3 extremely similar aerials in those 3 choices.

3. Dair and Uair both send people... kind of up. This is a bit unusual in the cast: even disregarding the spikes and meteors, Dair's and Uairs tend to be a lot different from each other. You can press Uair and hit them up, or press Dair and do a crazy blender dance all over their face AND SEND THEM UP!

4. No deathly strong aerial. Again, you could argue you don't need this per se, but it's another thing he lacks that keeps his aerials feeling too similar. Everything hits decent. Nothing incredibly strong, nothing incredibly weak, just a bunch of averageish hitting moves.


When it comes to his aerials, there's not enough nuances/niches/different properties to make you think and be rewarded for choosing something different. Even for aerials that are "crappy" like Bowser's Dair, it's at least something different. Squirtle's **** is literally 3 degrading sex kicks and 2 juggles/upwards knockback. It's not bueno. Change it please.

I don't think we have to do drastic things like give him more range, or give him a Falcon Knee, but we can certainly improve the fun people have with the character and make his players feel like they truly have different options for scenarios, instead of making it a pissing contest to see how tricky you can be with shelldancedashpooping into the world's most obvious RAR Bair.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

I greatly look forward to the 3.0 changes to existing characters. And for people to never be able to make a tier list for a demo.

 

[Burnsy]

Nair has armor and a horizontal/sligthly downward trajectory that's useful in offstage edgeguarding and facilitates the transition from aerial juggles to techchasing.
Fair sweet spot is the strongest of his aerials, but is very exposed and loses to almost everything, so its better saved to end combos or out of a shell shift jump to punish a high % opponent's mistake at long range.
Compared to the first two, bair isn't quite as strong but squirtles long and invincible tail means that it has pretty respectable priority given the characters size.
Dair is incredibly useful for the sole fact that it beats CC. Tails invincible on that too, so its another move with pretty decent priority and covers a different part of his body from the others.
Uair sweet spot now kills and is pretty reliable to set up with good high % launchers like Dsmash, dtilt, and sourspot ftilt.

They seem different enough to me.

 

[DMG]

Make them different. Give Squirtle a Fire Sword.

 

[MVP]

Mario is one of Links hardest match-ups. The fireballs are a pain and Marios superior movement options and his insane combo game on Link make it really hard for link, especially if mario gets grabs on you often.

imo, the hardest mu for link is Ivy

 

[Hylian]

imo, the hardest mu for link is Ivy

I agree with that.

 

[MVP]

I agree with that.

my bro's main is link. he can wreck me almost every time until i play ivy

 

[DMG]

Wait what? I'm surprised because Light likes that MU as Link, and does pretty good against Denti whenever they play. It sounds fine if you camp your balls off. In fact, I think I faintly hear Light giggling in the horizon at the thought of camping Ivy to death. The man got a blister last tournament from mashing the B button so much for projectiles.

Really though, I'd be interested if either of them posted more about it. I only hear good things about that MU for Link. Ivy and Awestin were the talk of the tournament, and someone posed a question of who are the "official" Ivy counters, and Link was like 3rd in the running behind Falco and Sheik.

 

[Hylian]

Wait what? I'm surprised because Light likes that MU as Link, and does pretty good against Denti whenever they play. It sounds fine if you camp your balls off. In fact, I think I faintly hear Light giggling in the horizon at the thought of camping Ivy to death. The man got a blister last tournament from mashing the B button so much for projectiles.

Really though, I'd be interested if either of them posted more about it. I only hear good things about that MU for Link. Ivy and Awestin were the talk of the tournament, and someone posed a question of who are the "official" Ivy counters, and Link was like 3rd in the running behind Falco and Sheik.

Link has no follow-ups on Ivy, especially an Ivy who SDI's. What exactly is he camping ivy with? Link is slower than Ivy, he doesn't have the speed to keep ivy from getting into mid-range. Link is a mid-range character, but so is Ivy and Ivy excels at mid-range more than pretty much any other character. Link is basically playing brawl against Ivy *hit -> reset to neutral -> repeat* while Ivy has viable pressure and combo options against link(really..really good combo options that denti probably doesn't utilize like footstool stuff) as well as being able to edgeguard Link better than most characters.