Tier List Speculation

[Yurya]

Gotta start droppin those bombs on recovering Ivys.

 

[Nguz95]

Mmmmkay. I'm gonna make a list so you can tell me why it sux

S Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Wario
4. Sheik
5. Wolf
6. Lucas
7. Mario
8. Snake

A Tier
9. Marth
10. Ivysaur
11. Peach
12. Metaknight
13. Pit
14. Jigglypuff
15. Donkey Kong
16. Zero Suit Samus
17. Bowser
18. Ike
19. Charizard
20. Diddy Kong

B Tier
21. Lucario
22. Link
23. Captain Falcon
24. Ness
25. ROB
26. Mr. Game and Watch
27. Sonic
28. Toon Link
29. Zelda
30. Luigi
31. Pikachu

C Tier
32. Squirtle
33. Ganondorf
34. King Deedeedee

C Tier is intentionally small because I think these characters lack certain abilities that make the neutral game a serious chore. I tried to order this list based off three factors: neutral game, recovery, and combo strength (ranked in order of importance). The only exception to this rule is Bowser, who I believe is very weak in the neutral game, but has the tools to effectively neutralize other character's approach options. If I were to weight the importance of each attribute, I think the ratio would be around 45% neutral game, 32% recovery, and 23% combo strength. Some characters, like Mario, lack slightly in the neutral game, but their recovery and combo strength are so strong that they bring up his composite. Very few characters (maybe even no characters) have really good neutral games but poor recoveries and combos.

 

[The_Altrox]

Here's a question... are Fox and Falco destined to remain the top of the top of this game? I mean, it's cool that they made them more like their Melee versions, but the fact that people credit them as being on top of the top tier... Are future edits to characters going to be to make said characters at the space animal level? I know it would be incredibly difficult to bring every character to the same level, but what is the standard of balancing the characters for PM?

 

[Deleted member]

fox and falco are good because of their neutral games. lots of characters like zss, pit, wolf, etc etc have the tools to match them but their play isn't as developed yet. give it time.

 

[The_Altrox]

Okay. I get that. I just had paranoia that there was some sort of agenda to make this game like Melee in the sense that those two characters would be built to be the top above everybody else, just because they were like that in Melee and people liked them for it.
That's not fair of me to think though, since the game is still in development and there are clearly other characters that can have developed tools. However, what I want to know is what is the standard for balancing/buffing/nerfing these characters? Are they being built to Fox/Falco's level? Or are they being built to a slightly lower level that Fox/Falco will recieve minor nerfs in order to match? Or is there a standard at all?

 

[Nguz95]

Well, Fox and Falco were poorly designed characters. From a design standpoint, they had too many strengths and too few weaknesses to capitalize off of. From what I have gathered reading thoughts from members of the backroom, Project M is trying to achieve design perfection in each character. They are trying to create a cast filled with characters that fit multiple archetypes or niches. For example, characters like DK, Ike, and DDD fit the grappler archetype; however, they each fill this niche in their unique way. The challenge is to make each archetype viable. In a game that rewards aggression, designing a viable projectile character can be difficult. A perfectly designed character not only fits a niche but also has drawbacks and weaknesses to keep him from being overly dangerous. Fox and Falco do not fit this description, which means that most characters in the PM cast will never be quite as dangerous as them.

 

[The_Altrox]

So should they be fit into a niche then so that they aren't overly dangerous? Would this mean nerfs down the line?

 

[GP&B]

I imagine they'd probably look into the more ridiculous aspects like Falco's lasers and his braindead Dair or Fox's USmash (which is extra safe due to Brawl shield pushback that they'll fix down the line), but retain the other aspects of them.

 

[Nguz95]

Perhaps. Fox and Falco are currently essential for maintaining the health of this game. Like all fringe communities, Smash depends on interest to survive. As PM is a relatively small subset of an already small community, maintaining ties to the rest of the community is essential. That means keeping the top 5 characters form Melee intact. Project M is currently riding of the success of Melee, which I think is a good thing. When it has developed a large enough community, it will be safe to change Fox and falco significantly. Until then, however, it is not safe to change them.

 

[The_Altrox]

Okay. I know they'll want to keep aspects of them, but if they remain in a league of their own above the others with little conceivable weaknesses in comparison with the others, that's just silly.

Also, I kind of which they let Falco keep a few of his Brawl aspects, or at least put those things on other characters. I get why they changed Falco to his Melee form, but some of the Brawl things were cool (given that he was good, but for different reasons.) I was kind of hoping they'd give the kick reflector to somebody else, but whatevs.

 

[Nguz95]

Maybe they will. I doubt it though. PM has made a point of changing Melee vets as little as possible. Most of the changes have had to do with timers and hitboxes. Most of the Brawl characters, however, have been changed significantly in order to fit in with the Melee cast. In my opinion Fox and falco aren't nearly as far ahead of everyone else in PM. A lot of characters have been given moves that really mess with spacies' recoveries, and lots of them are not too hard to play effectively. Fox and falco have still retained their really high skill floor, so in practice I don't think they are nearly as dangerous as before.

 

[The_Altrox]

I understand. But then, I was hoping that somebody else would get the kick reflector. As a move, I feel like it could have potential in this game if tweaked the right way. Hell, I would have given it to Wolf, since a lot of the new characters got revamps. They could have given it to the fresh slate and allowed him to apply it in his game. But since he doesn't have it... it'll probably be lost in vBrawl. Too bad. I feel like it could have been incorporated somewhere, if not on Falco. But at the end of the day, it's not a huge deal.

 

[Nguz95]

It's a really cool move, but I think it doesn't really fit well with what the shine is supposed to be. I could totally see a variant of it going to Olimar or somebody new. He could use a pikmin instead of a reflector though. Anyways, lets get back to tier list placings.

 

[Giygacoal]

Okay. I get that. I just had paranoia that there was some sort of agenda to make this game like Melee in the sense that those two characters would be built to be the top above everybody else, just because they were like that in Melee and people liked them for it.
That's not fair of me to think though, since the game is still in development and there are clearly other characters that can have developed tools. However, what I want to know is what is the standard for balancing/buffing/nerfing these characters? Are they being built to Fox/Falco's level? Or are they being built to a slightly lower level that Fox/Falco will recieve minor nerfs in order to match? Or is there a standard at all?

No, several members of the PMBR are actually really bothered by Fox and Falco. The standard (from what the fans can tell) is meant to be below the current Fox and Falco since it's been proven that making every character as ridiculous as Fox or Falco is a bad idea. There's a lot of talk about nerfing the two, so we'll see what happens.

 

[Plum]

Here's a question... are Fox and Falco destined to remain the top of the top of this game? I mean, it's cool that they made them more like their Melee versions, but the fact that people credit them as being on top of the top tier... Are future edits to characters going to be to make said characters at the space animal level? I know it would be incredibly difficult to bring every character to the same level, but what is the standard of balancing the characters for PM?

Unless their neutral game is nerfed I don't see them really going anywhere.
The rest of the cast may catch up in time as new characters develop their metagame though.
Like, maybe it won't be clear that Fox is the best character in the game anymore, and there will just be an ambiguous top tier where all the characters in that tier are relatively even... But I don't see them going anywhere as they exist in the game right now.

#FreePMSocial

 

[KayB]

No, several members of the PMBR are actually really bothered by Fox and Falco.

Any player that doesn't use Fox or Falco as mains generally have problems with the spacies lol

 

[Giygacoal]

I use Fox and Flaco, and I still want nerfs. lol

 

[Vashimus]

Huh. A spacie player who has no problems with having them nerfed.

You know what that means.

A WITCH!!!!!!

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I use Fox and Flaco, and I still want nerfs. lol

flacco is an elite qb
fox hasn't even been to the playoffs
so flacco>fox

Actually I feel like falco is better just because of lasers, but maybe that's just the DDD matchup, as DDD can be immobilized by lasers while he can just run through the puny light beams fox fires.

 

[Nguz95]

I guess nobody cares about my tier list then...

 

[Plum]

flacco is an elite qb
fox hasn't even been to the playoffs
so flacco>fox

Actually I feel like falco is better just because of lasers, but maybe that's just the DDD matchup, as DDD can be immobilized by lasers while he can just run through the puny light beams fox fires.

The stage variety in PM in particular goes a long way in alleviating Falco, and if anything bolstering Fox. IMO at least.

#FreePMSocial

 

[KayB]

I guess nobody cares about my tier list then...

That's right. Noone cares. All your hardwork = NOTHING
Life of a tier list maker.

 

[Plum]

Tier list maker tier list.
Top Tier
Strong Bad
Mid Tier
Other people who bother to do it
Low Tier
Nguz95

#FreePMSocial

 

[Nguz95]

 

[Archangel]

Any player that doesn't use Fox or Falco as mains generally have problems with the spacies lol

That's not true. I do not have a problem with either of them. Not in melee and certainly not in PM.

Then again...I suppose if I still used bad characters I'd have a problem with them.

 

[Giygacoal]

I guess nobody cares about my tier list then...

I care about what you have to say because you have Scraggy as your avatar.

 

[Giygacoal]

Actually I feel like falco is better just because of lasers, but maybe that's just the DDD matchup, as DDD can be immobilized by lasers while he can just run through the puny light beams fox fires.

Two of the proposed reasons that Fox is overall better than Falco in PM are that more stages support Fox's methods of killing and Falco's lasers at least have counters... sort of.

 

[metroid1117]

I understand. But then, I was hoping that somebody else would get the kick reflector. As a move, I feel like it could have potential in this game if tweaked the right way. Hell, I would have given it to Wolf, since a lot of the new characters got revamps. They could have given it to the fresh slate and allowed him to apply it in his game. But since he doesn't have it... it'll probably be lost in vBrawl. Too bad. I feel like it could have been incorporated somewhere, if not on Falco. But at the end of the day, it's not a huge deal.

For what it's worth, a little-utilized attribute that Falco retained from Brawl is his ability to DACUS and gatling combo.

 

[Spiffykins]

Wait wait wait, Falco still has the gatling combo? Why haven't I seen anyone using this? Being able to turbo mode from dash attack to up smash is a pretty big deal...

 

[Plum]

Because Brawl tactics in general are woefully underused in general aside from the clearly obvious ones like RAR.

#FreePMSocial

 

[Cuccu Maestro]

Squirtle aerial bubble is a ridiculous move, semi spikes, hits far through platforms, is quite strong as general neutral game tool with wavebouncing and shield pierces like crazy. Follow up with dtilt a lot of the time. With all due respect I wouldn't consider it niche at all.

 

[Bryonato]

My updated (2nd) tier list. Don't kill me pls

S:
Fox

A:
Sheik
Falco
Wolf
MK
Peach
Snake
Ivy

B:
Mario
Pit
Wario
Marth
ZSS
Ike
Bowser
Link
DK
Falcon
Zard
Diddy
Lucas

C:
GnW
Ness
D3
Puff
Weegee
ROB
Squirtle
Lucario
Ganon
Sonic

D:
Tink
Zelda
Pika

 

[metroid1117]

Wait wait wait, Falco still has the gatling combo? Why haven't I seen anyone using this? Being able to turbo mode from dash attack to up smash is a pretty big deal...

From what I've seen, most of the people who play Falco in PM were those who played him in Melee, and those who played Melee typically have little to no knowledge of Brawl ATs.

 

[Deleted member]

does anyone else think that MKs moves are really, really stupid?

 

[Zwarm]

I don't get why people consider Squirtle gimmicky or niche. Yes, people can just pick him and Bubble and dsmash a lot, but if you know how to beat it, Squirtle is free.

But on the other hand, I have a very good grasp of Squirtle as a character, and I know when to use the moves (for the most part) and even people I play with all the time, that I know for a fact know how to beat it, still get hit. It's about knowing what move to use when. Bubble is a great utility in the neutral game, in some MUs, it's nice to safely pressure shields while keeping yourself safe by using slingshots and wavebounces, in others, it's useful to gimp recoveries or keep the opponent away. And in some MUs, it's not useful whatsoever and I barely ever even use it except on tech chases.

Squirtle is the kind of character that in the neutral game, he's not looking to just play super left and right bros, his dash dance leaves a lot to be desired, but his incredible wavedash and shellshift options keep him constantly on the move, darting in and out, and keeping up general pressure. Camping does not beat Squirtle, and he can get around most character's spacing tricks because he's so fast.

And the armor on his nair is negligible, the armor on Withdraw can be utilized so much more, especially in MUs against characters who like to have projectiles flying around everywhere.

I dunno. All I ever hear at tournaments is people saying how good Squirtle is. I was constantly getting compliments about my Squirtle at TBH3, and I think I showed people the character is actually really good. His only major weaknesses are his terrible techroll, and very low knockback growth on his fair, which can make it hard to kill sometimes, but you just have to be creative with him. If they don't tech bubble, free up smash, that kinda thing.

Also, although I love his dair, I completely support the idea of making it a spike, similar to Lucas' old dair from 2.5, but smacking them with his tail or something. Just an idea.

 

[Oro?!]

They are beyond incredible. MK top 5 tbd soon.

 

[Archangel]

Metaknight has some stupid moves in both senses of the word. Some moves are stupid good and others are stupid bad.

 

[Cuccu Maestro]

What MK moves are stupid bad?

 

[Spiffykins]

Jab, side b, neutral b, down air, and neutral air are all pretty janky imo. Not that any of them are entirely useless, but they all seem less useful than they're supposed to be.

 

[Bryonato]

neutral air.... useless....
does not compute