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Tier List Speculation

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Wait wait wait, Falco still has the gatling combo? Why haven't I seen anyone using this? Being able to turbo mode from dash attack to up smash is a pretty big deal...
Gatling combo is pretty meh overall in PM. The main reason is that if you were close enough to land the beginning portions of DA (which is where you can cancel it into Usmash, can't cancel delayed dash attack hits iirc), you were already close enough for an option like SH Dair which is probably 5x better. Dair on shield when timed/done correctly is mucho safer than gatling, and you already *assume* that you are hitting their character or shield when you go for gatling. If you completely miss or mistime, you are boned much harder doing dash attack.

DACUS on the other hand could have some legit uses to punish people rolling away from his laser game, or rolling away in tech chase. That's underutilized definitely. Gatling combo though is overrated on Falco in dis game.


My updated (2nd) tier list. Don't kill me pls
The only note I have, is that Fox doesn't deserve to be in S tier all by himself. I would group the top 3-5 characters in the same tier, and give Fox a little crown next to his name that says "Usmash"

They are beyond incredible. MK top 5 tbd soon.
Idk. Sometimes I feel like MK is great, but his neutral game still feels odd. I feel like if someone wants to show that he's top 5, they would have to master all of the intricacies with cancelled Down B attacks, pivot tilts/options from Dashing forward, etc to improve his neutral. He does plenty from Dthrow, and people will get better with his edgeguarding as they lose fear of plummeting like a rock, but I can't help to feel that something feels off with the *current* MK approaching tactics and baits.

Jab, side b, neutral b, down air, and neutral air are all pretty janky imo. Not that any of them are entirely useless, but they all seem less useful than they're supposed to be.
Jab winz. Side B is jank only recover. Tornado is jank only recover. Dair is OK but overrated onstage as an approach/tool. Most useful option from it is landing safer after a juggle where they can't reach you that easily. Nair is janky, but very good. How much end lag/how far he still falls once the move is done kind of baffles me, but I guess it's fairer that way.
 

Papa+Stone

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Give it back to him, cool overpowered moves like falcon knee fox uair and falco dair add flavor and fun anti character strats to the game. Also some of my favorite characters still need buffs. For the next update give mario and doc fire/lightning fx on their dunk punches its not fair that falcons knee has sick lightning graphics but mario has a boring big fist. Whenever i land it in game I reach the threshold of ecstasy but I can never go beyond it, put this buff in so I can have my release. While youre at that give lightning/fire properties to falcon and luigis nip/hip spikes and since luigi is a karate master, shouldnt he be able to break walls with his fair fsmash and karate kick ftilt? Give those moves shield damage
Edit: karate headbutt up smash needs brick breaking shield damage as well
 

Ace55

Smash Lord
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spacies do work tho

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Bowser is the closest thing to a hard Falco counter I've ever come across. Fox isn't such a hot matchup though (although laser nerf did help a bit, gives you much more time to carefully approach without eating tons of chip damage). Haven't played against Wolf enough to say anything about it.
 

TheReflexWonder

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It would allow him to jump toward Bowser safely and either start whatever he wants (if it's not Crawl Armor'd) or get a good position in his face (since the frame advantage would be pretty nice).

This would also be a crazy-good juggle tool, and it has good synergy with D-Air (which beats Crawl Armor after low percents are passed). It gives him a lot of safety and flexibility with landing and approaching, significantly easing the prediction game that Bowser currently gets a lot out of putting Falco into.
 

ELI-mination

Smash Champion
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I get tons of bowser practice and experience, and I don't really lose with spacies against bowser. I did at first, but then I stopped falling into stuff.
Also Wolf wrecks bowser hard.
 

Nausicaa

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NOBODY BEATS ANIMALS FROM SPACE

On a related note, how about that Mewtwo on FD? Direct-Counter? ;)
 

ItalianStallion

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NOBODY BEATS ANIMALS FROM SPACE

On a related note, how about that Mewtwo on FD? Direct-Counter? ;)
Well, in Melee, it sometimes would work out well when you got a grab and put on some percent. The new Mewtwo looks to have a better combo game, so that will probably ring true. The problem in Melee though, and perhaps even a bigger problem in PM due to shield pushback, is getting that grab on a good spacie. Because of that, I don't foresee Mewtwo on FD being a counter.

In general, I've always had more success with Mewtwo on stages with platforms because of his incredible wavedash. I could platform play and use wavelands off of platforms to aerials (Normally fair) to give him new angles to approach. Plus, it's perhaps easier to control a spacie when you have platforms due to the ability to get around lasers, as well as covering their options when they fall on a platform.
 

Papa+Stone

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Yeah people always seem to think that a low tier who had a decent matchup against spacies would become a spacie killer if buffed. However none of this has happened because the devs leave the gimmicks that made the low tiers work in the first place unchanged and instead add a bunch of extra tools that dont matter at all in the spacie matchups. If they just buffed the gimmicky spacie killing tools that they already had then we would see marth grab mewtwo and dtilt setup roy and spacies would drop to bottom tier.
 

Keatsta

Smash Apprentice
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Sep 16, 2005
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181
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Waterloo, Ontario
Here's my list... just so I can see how silly I seem years down the line.

I started doing writeups to explain but I don't have time right now. I'll try to justify any choices if you ask though.

S
Falco
Fox
Meta Knight
Mario

A
Wario
Zero Suit Samus
Snake
Ivysaur
Sheik
Marth

B
Pit
Wolf
Game and Watch
Lucario
Charizard
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong

C
Lucas
Peach
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Link
ROB
Bowser
Jigglypuff
Toon Link

D
Zelda
Luigi
Dedede
Sonic
Squirtle
Ness
Ike
Pikachu
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
as far as MK goes, his ground game is amazing from neutral. amazing dash speed, amazing dashdance, good dthrow out of grab, good tech chases, etc. as soon as he jumps into the air, his movement speed is ****. so he's based around ground conversions into aerial combos, which is fine. i have some beef with some of his moves though.

- fsmash is entirely too safe. i'm pretty sure half the cast can't do anything about it even if MK just sits in the middle of the stage and charges it. often you find yourself trying to punish whatever MK does after the fsmash and not the fsmash itself.
- i randomly find myself able to crouch ftilt at like 60% but i can pretty much never crouch ftilt, dtilt, or jab as low as 30%. most of the time it ends up as a knock-over and a tech chase from MK. normally running up and shielding can beat something like tilt spam, but MK's dash is way too fast for that.
- the character's ftilt, fsmash, dtilt, and grab have significantly more range than one would expect from that character. occasionally i find myself outranged with marth on what i know to be pinpoint perfect spacing, which is....odd looking.
- MK has 4 ways to recover, and basically all 4 of them are extremely limited for actually getting back to the stage. in the event that he gets back with side B, that also can't be crouched at 30 and combos into absolutely anything or stage spikes way harder than it probably should. this sets up a situation where it's crappy for MK to recover because none of his **** is good, but it's also crappy to edge guard him because you have a strong chance to get hit by a conversion out of nowhere. down B killing from 70% is pretty excessive too. there's no reason for a teleport recovery option to kill better than falcon's knee.
- MK himself has a very unusual combo weight that lets him crouch basic tilts up through 60% ish. but then he also dies very early from being light. a lot of the time, the end result is that he can crouch moves successfully right up until they kill him and there's only a very small mid-% game. idk if it's problematic, it's just really weird.
- the dair lets MK escape bad positioning juggles, which basically nullifies juggling the character, but it's also not even really useful as an attack. i'm not sure why he lost his brawl dair, which was pretty signature to the character.

i'd like to recommend changes to normalize the character:

- increase the character's weight
- improve his ability to recover
- restore brawl dair

- make his moves easier to crouch by a good 20-30%
- lower the kill power of fsmash/down b
- give fsmash / dtilt / ftilt / rapid A literally any lag at all
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Unbreon: Wouldn't giving MK more weight, let him CC easier? What makes him feel awkward is his fall speed, not the weight. He's a featherweight bat thingy that falls fast like Lucas and the Spacies' fall speed, it doesn't make much sense from that perspective. He's like a flying bowling ball or something lol. You would honestly figure that he would be floatier than Mario or x average character, when he's closer to the FF end.

Fsmash- It's pretty safe I guess. Would you keep the same frame data and trim the hitbox, or give it more endlag?

CC issue- Are you sure that you are CCing instead of ASDI/blah blah holding down without true CCing? MK IS and should normally be very susceptible to actual CCing, but you may find yourself knocked over or floored if you are ASDIing instead (did a move and held down during your own lag, and he punishes you would not count as true CC). On quite a few of his moves, he is prone to CC into shield and that can also work on his Side B as well onstage. You can shield inbetween the hits and get a free punish when the move is over, even if you messed up the original punish. Ivysaur has a similar thing going on with his Nair

His range- He's got a sword that's just a wee bit smaller than Marth's reach overall. I can't speak for you, but I know for a fact that Marth tends to outspace MK except for very niche situations. Your Fsmash can lose to MK attacks because of the arm extending forward, both during the initial swing and after the move is over during recovery lag. Marth Dtilt *should* have more range than any tilt of MK's besides Ftilt hit #3 perhaps. Ftilt hit #3 is very surprisingly massive, was like that for Brawl too. Fair vs Fair Marth should have a bit more range but may take just a tad longer to hit someone who's lower in the arc swing. MK basically hits the entire hitbox in front of him immediately with his sword swings, there's none or very little arc time on each swing. Grab range is above average, with dash grab feeling huge.

Recovery- I agree, it's pretty limited overall. Side B can definitely be CC'd though for quite some time it feels like. I've done CC into shielding to get a free punish, and possibly DI/SDI down + away if I'm not sure about getting the actual CC and still get the shield. Going offstage to edgeguard MK can be very bad, but onstage edgeguarding tends to be suitable. Give him the edge for free and trap him there seems decent as well.

Dair- I HATE IT! I HATED ON IT FIRST! It's a silly move that should probably be reworked if they aren't going to give him something related to Brawl Dair. Not a single character in Melee had that extreme "stall then fall" quality of a Dair, and the Brawl characters who had one either had it removed and reworked OR lovely Sonic got some added properties to make it more useful (and not a death sentence offstage). I've seen justifications for the move, but it frankly doesn't fit in very well.
 

Plum

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Give MK Brawl Dair so I can gimp everyone and everything with that stupid angle pls.

#FreePMSocial
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Am I the only one who absolutely loves MK's dair?
Yes
10Yes

Give MK Brawl Dair so I can gimp everyone and everything with that stupid angle pls.

#FreePMSocial
It would be great, nothing could go wrong. Change KB angle, hitbox size, speed, duration, and add fire sword effects. Balance always starts with fire swords you miserable fools.

-give him a sex kick
-give him a reflecting down b
No stahp
10ChickenWings
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
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MK has the second largest sword in the game (and it's not far off from Ragnell's size, either). I know his arms are stubby, but his range shouldn't be surprising.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Jokes on you, Roy will fix that when he's released!
 

SixSaw

Smash Journeyman
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Chicago, IL
S
Falco
Fox
Meta Knight
Mario


I'd love to hear your reasoning behind placing Falco above Fox, though other than that I'd agree with this tier. I think we're only going to see Mario improve more and more as meta develops.

A
Wario
Zero Suit Samus
Snake
Ivysaur
Sheik
Marth
Maybe bump Ivysaur up a few spots? Other than that this also seems pretty accurate.

B
Pit
Wolf
Game and Watch
Lucario
Charizard
Donkey Kong
Diddy Kong
Why G&W so high? I'd say Wolf belongs in A

C
Lucas
Peach
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Link
ROB
Bowser
Jigglypuff
Toon Link
Lucas belongs in at least mid-B imo. I also think Peach has the potential to be A. Accurate Placement of Falcon and Ganon. Tink really ought to be knocked down to D.

D

Zelda
Luigi
Dedede
Sonic
Squirtle
Ness
Ike
Pikachu
Zelda seems like a really underrated character to me. With the new mechanics they've given her I think she has serious potential to be PM's Jigglypuff. She's just waiting for her HungryBox, so to speak, to realize that potential. Same goes for DDD; It seems to me he has the tourney results to justify at least C tier placement. I'm also bit surprised at how low so many people are putting Sonic, even with how much success Wizzrobe has had with him.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
The key statement you made, was "success Wizzrobe has had", not "is having". Sonic got nerfed and everyone is frowny face over it and he's declined a lot in tourney results. A good chunk of Sonic players no longer play him, whether from the recent nerfs or from overall dissatisfaction with the character shifting and changing over the patches.
 

SixSaw

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The key statement you made, was "success Wizzrobe has had", not "is having". Sonic got nerfed and everyone is frowny face over it and he's declined a lot in tourney results. A good chunk of Sonic players no longer play him, whether from the recent nerfs or from overall dissatisfaction with the character shifting and changing over the patches.
Ah, sorry for the slowpoke then. I guess I should have noticed none of those matches were recent :p
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
No... NOOOOOO!

*people liking MK's Dair*



Edit: "Is Wolf's Laser better than Falco's?"

Bahahahaahahahahaahahaha

 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
:roypm: that's all I have to say to you heathens

I'm dying for Roy to come out, and to one day focus my time into Ness
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Wolf's Laser application: Let's wavedash out of it to react slower than Falco, have my laser die to attacks, and travel slower than God's chipped toenail

Falco's Laser application: Your opponent cancels their trip to Hawaii cause they ain't goin NOWHERE
 

Plum

Has never eaten a plum.
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:roypm: that's all I have to say to you heathens

I'm dying for Roy to come out, and to one day focus my time into Ness
WHOA WHOA WHOA.
Slow down DMG.
I think the excitement is going to your head. Ness? Just listen to yourself man.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Awestin converted me. In fact, we may do Double Ness in teams.

As Beavis would say: "Prepare your Bungholes"
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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DMG#931
Yeah, maybe if this was Guile and you couldn't JAB Sonic Boom to destroy it
 
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