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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
bubbaking
Smash Hero
But still not so much better vs this Fox, Falco, Jiggs, Marth, or Falcon, so I still think a Top Tier spot is kinda incredulous. Brawl glide tosses don't really make any of these MUs much better for Peach, except for improving an already crappy OoS option.
Archangel
Smash Hero
based on my impressions to this point and some other additional info.
No particular order in each given tier.
S tier:
S- tier
A tier
A- tier
B tier
c tier
Z tier
Done. but I left sheilda.
greenblattsam
Smash Cadet
With the weird quirkyness to both Falcon's Nair and Uair. I don't think he can do as well as against Peach as he could previously.
Archangel
Smash Hero
@JC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zgbrPgpphY
that rob I'm starting to work on...I just tried to play him yesterday and this came out. Help? Advice? info?
I'm starting to like the robot.
that rob I'm starting to work on...I just tried to play him yesterday and this came out. Help? Advice? info?
I'm starting to like the robot.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
but seed bomb and razor leaf and dtilt
Swann
Smash Journeyman
Ivy is super good and I completely agree with her position on Archangel's list.
Ivy also ranks S in the cute tier.
Ivy also ranks S in the cute tier.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
And ftilt, and usmash, and dair, and nair, and so much crap! XD
Ivy's better OoS than G&W is, and I think Ivy's not that good OoS.
Ivy's better OoS than G&W is, and I think Ivy's not that good OoS.
Archangel
Smash Hero
iLink....I will personally kill you if you ever say that again.
Who do you guys play against as Ivy? Honestly. She might be able to keep out a few characters but thats about it.
The only thing she has going for her is like Bair, Razor Leaf and maybe Ftilt. Anything else is like average AT BEST.
The only thing she has going for her is like Bair, Razor Leaf and maybe Ftilt. Anything else is like average AT BEST.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Actually, ftilt is a godly tilt. It's easily one of her best CQC moves. Someone isn't spamming enough Seed Bomb. I agree that Ivy is somewhat mediocre, hence my placement of her in Mid Tier, but she's nowhere near as bad as G&W.
Archangel
Smash Hero
Ivy's only beyond doable match-up is like Falco...assuming you aren't good at Powershielding or even decent...you'll likely get 3 stocked. Same kind of difficulty comes vs spam happy characters but none as bad as falco imo. Aside from that Ivy does very very well against everyone who can't shut her down 100% from 200 feet away.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
I would imagine that Fox, Pit, and Peach all do well against Ivy. They can all remain a comfortable distance away while keeping Ivy from charging her Solarbeam or setting up too strong of a zoning wall. Fox just ***** keep-away chars who don't have godly OoS tools.
`dazrin
Smash Champion
You guys-
Lol
Lol
Try crouch-canceling or N-Airplaning out of a dashdance against it sometime. 
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Y'all realize G&W has the single fastest OOS move in the game right? It's much faster than shieldgrabs and Bowser's fortress (the hitbox itself), and it's even faster than shine OOS because you don't have to wait for jumpstart to end to get your frame 1 hitbox. Not to mention it's super safe and combos into kill moves.
I just don't see how people can say G&W has a bad OOS game with a straight face. It doesn't beat every type of shield pressure, but some characters would kill for his up-B.
Nobody realizes this because they're used to Up-B being mediocre for that.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
I'm used to up-B letting you air dodge after using a uair to recover.
I don't think it's that great because it doesn't address the more horizontal pressure on shields. Like it's not gonna stop sword characters or people with good jabs/tilts from poking at him. If you're in range or not spaced well vs Bowser Snake etc, you eat it. Plenty of characters can be safe in their own grab range attacking him and avoiding Upb. As an offensive OOS option, it's pretty poor. And regardless, the totality of his OOS game is not great. What's your fastest aerial, Uair probably? Shield drop into Jab or Dtilt is also gonna be slow. And don't even think about trying to shield grab with one of the worst grab ranges in the game.
His Upb doesn't fix ^^^^^, so yeah his OOS game doesn't look great to me. That Upb is better than nothing, but I'm not even putting it close to Bowser and Snake. It might relieve pressure from Fox or Falco, but launching yourself a mile above them probably isn't what you want either lol
Edit: Unless I'm missing something like the first hixbox is a horizontal area covering G^W solidly before he rises, the move only helps sometimes from above/spacie close pressure in my experience. And as for comboing into it, I dunno about that. A lot of times, you only get a hit by hitting with the middle portion of Upb and then letting the Nair/Fair come out. Hitting with one of the early parts of Upb, especially grounded, shouldn't net you crap besides starting to work on floaties at like 40 ish?
His Upb doesn't fix ^^^^^, so yeah his OOS game doesn't look great to me. That Upb is better than nothing, but I'm not even putting it close to Bowser and Snake. It might relieve pressure from Fox or Falco, but launching yourself a mile above them probably isn't what you want either lol
Edit: Unless I'm missing something like the first hixbox is a horizontal area covering G^W solidly before he rises, the move only helps sometimes from above/spacie close pressure in my experience. And as for comboing into it, I dunno about that. A lot of times, you only get a hit by hitting with the middle portion of Upb and then letting the Nair/Fair come out. Hitting with one of the early parts of Upb, especially grounded, shouldn't net you crap besides starting to work on floaties at like 40 ish?
Magus420
Smash Master
G&W's grab range is actually not bad. It is pretty average.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Yeah, GnW's grab is kinda standard.
I've had times where I've tried to grab things OOS and failed, where I know with other characters I would grab them though... so idk.
I've had times where I've tried to grab things OOS and failed, where I know with other characters I would grab them though... so idk.
Oracle
Smash Master
Sorry magus one frame shoryu that you can act out of just isn't good enough. Make it 0 frames
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
Make it negative frames
So it happens before you press the button
but only if you press the button after it happens
bubbaking
Smash Hero
You guys know a move isn't that great just because it's 1 frame, right? That just means it's fast. There are so many other reasons why the spacees' shine is a good move. G&W's upB is a mediocre OoS option. It has meager KB and it puts G&W way above the opponent where he's vulnerable. It's nice that you get to keep your jump and aerials and all, but you still have to get down if there aren't platforms around. If there are plats around, then yeah, it's an okay OoS option.
Tl;dr - That move can even be unsafe on hit.
Tl;dr - That move can even be unsafe on hit.
I've been crying this since pre-release.
DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
In theory if you're playing on FD all day then sure there aren't any platforms around. I guess the only place this would FREQUENTLY be an issue is SV, which is the most commonly played stage, and the platform at any one time isn't covering a respecable size of it, nor is it high up enough that using it to land quickly isn't as feasible. But it's not like you can't strike SV and FD (and PS2 to a lesser extent) and instantly have a much safer OoS option. Of course, you'll get counter picked to one of those stages most likely at some point, but chances are you aren't winning with GaW anyways 
bubbaking
Smash Hero
All of this may be true, but it doesn't solve G&W's other problem: a lack of a reliable way to properly set up good pressure without being pressured to heck himself. UpB OoS just resets a bad situation to a bad neutral state and he gets punished way too hard in said neutral state.
D
Deleted member
Guest
i played vanz some in the sheik vs peach MU, and it seemed pretty close but there is probably more to it than that and i wouldn't take it at face value. i have no idea how experienced vanz is at this game, how much he was trying, etc.
peach is pretty much perfect though as a character.
reflex, i wish i'd played you more. i thought you were a pretty good player when we played but i had no idea who you were.
peach is pretty much perfect though as a character.
reflex, i wish i'd played you more. i thought you were a pretty good player when we played but i had no idea who you were.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Define "perfect". Really solid with apparent weaknesses for balance or Top Tier level with few weaknesses that are easily covered up? There seem to be two meanings for that word (and balanced) floating around, and I believe the P:M cast is only aiming to fill one of them.
Also, you shouldn't bring all the properties of the move into this argument when the context is only discussing OoS traits. Sure, G&W's upB combos into kill moves when you're already comboing someone. Does it do the same when he's on top of your shield?
For me, a good OoS game consists of multiple (more than 2, please) of the following:
Edit: This is why I always say that Ivy's OoS game is mediocre as well. All she has is a fast nair with some "oomph" to it and a good bair if you're behind her. Her ftilt and dtilt would be great accompaniments to her WD OoS IF she had a good WD.
G&W's upB might be faster to start up than Boozer's and Samus' upB's, but I'd trade his upB OoS properties for theirs any day. Their upBs give them frame 1 invincibility and Bowser's upB kills.
Also, you shouldn't bring all the properties of the move into this argument when the context is only discussing OoS traits. Sure, G&W's upB combos into kill moves when you're already comboing someone. Does it do the same when he's on top of your shield?
For me, a good OoS game consists of multiple (more than 2, please) of the following:
- Aerials with fast start-up and lag that encompass most of the character's hurtbox.
- UpBs with low start-up, invincibility during start-up, and decent KB for added safety.
- Extremely fast roll and/or spotdodge.
- Long WD, accompanied by good tilts.
- Extremely fast specials other than upB with low startup and an added mechanism for protection.
- Long-ranged grab with regular 7 frame startup.
- Fast usmashes with good hitboxes, preferably ones with some invincibility on them.
Edit: This is why I always say that Ivy's OoS game is mediocre as well. All she has is a fast nair with some "oomph" to it and a good bair if you're behind her. Her ftilt and dtilt would be great accompaniments to her WD OoS IF she had a good WD.
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
Snake = Best character ever
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Just got the balls to read all of DMG's post and I must say, he's pretty spot-on...
Magus420
Smash Master
Yes? It hits them up near the peak of the up-b around KO percents. The early hit isn't what I'd call meager KB that puts you way above them.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
That's all fine and dandy but what about the %'s at which most of the match will be played at? In other words, how good is G&W's upB OoS when someone at low-mid %'s is pressuring his shield? Yes, I'm being picky, but these are all parts of the game that can't be ignored.