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Tier List Speculation

Magus420

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Why don't you try it and find out?

Btw, you can angle the thing at like 45 degrees (I flick the c-stick after inputting the up-b to do it more easily) so it's always going to be safe on hit, and a lot of characters will have difficulty catching him even on whiff, plus you have a DJ, b/d-air, and chef reversal to work with if they can.
 

oliman

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my 2 cents
haven't played too much of this game but

I think people are putting fox at #1 just cuz. falco is hovering near his rank in melee, and I think fox does worse against the cast than falco does. don't know matchups here, judging from standalone face value

G&W is not as bad as people think. This is admittedly based off of a few matches I played and say, but he definitely improved

D3 is maybe the worst. he's big and slow, and lots of problems derive from these kind of like obesity irl

Did Zelda get some nerfs? last time I checked she was maaaaaad good. why is she just "pretty good" tier?

Ivy for low. she's kinda mediocre. squirtle is actually really good imo, and so is charizard. squirtle will probably be better in the long run.
 

Kink-Link5

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Nair no longer sets up for followups if the latter portion hits, Glair deals less damage, and Up-B kills less reliably. Other than those three Charizard seems to have strictly buffs, hitbox readjustments to better match his animations, or remains the same.
 

Archangel

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I feel Zard was good when he had infinate glide.

now he's slightly below good but still not as bad as before. Could use a little more.

Personally, I think he should be given a fireball and not flame-breath.

I also don't think his Up-B should turn into brawl physics for a few seconds with the floatiness.
 

Jolteon

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bubbaking, samus' up+b oos has the same flaws you are picking at g&w's up+b for. And also if you are really asking magus basic questions about how g&w's up+b oos works then you should be playing him yourself to figure it out before acting as an authority about the issue. <_< Theorycrafting only goes so far.
 

bubbaking

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Nair no longer sets up for followups if the latter portion hits, Glair deals less damage, and Up-B kills less reliably. Other than those three Charizard seems to have strictly buffs, hitbox readjustments to better match his animations, or remains the same.
You forgot that bthrow no longer kills now, which is a nerf that's complimented by the buff of the throw being very comboable, and that his dthrow has slower IASA now. Dthrow TCs are no longer as easy as they once were, although they're still pretty good on plats.

bubbaking, samus' up+b oos has the same flaws you are picking at g&w's up+b for. And also if you are really asking magus basic questions about how g&w's up+b oos works then you should be playing him yourself to figure it out before acting as an authority about the issue. <_< Theorycrafting only goes so far.
If you read my full post, you'd see that there's a lot more that goes into a char's OoS game than just his upB, but if we're going to be only talking about Samus' and G&W's upBs OoS, Samus' upB at least leads to tech chases on every stage that's not FD, and Samus' TCs are effective and easy on plats. The same can't be said for G&W. Furthermore, the two chars can't even be reasonably compared because Samus is extremely heavy and also hard to combo and won't mind being punished for something as much as the super light and easily combo'd G&W would, PLUS she has a lot more good OoS options that G&W simply doesn't have.

WD OoS > any tilt or dsmash (or fsmash in some cases), nair OoS, bomb OoS, uair/fair OoS for specific scenarios, Samus has all of that. G&W has none of that, except for WD OoS dtilt, which is easily countered when you know it's one of the most probable things that G&W will do under pressure, and bair OoS in the specific case that the opponent attacked your shield unsafely behind you.

Also, why in the world do you think I'm theorycrafting? Just because you don't see videos of me around doesn't mean that I don't play this game. I ask questions because I don't trust myself to know the answers 100%, even though I play him a bit. If I tried to dthrow > fair Peach with Sheik but was a little slow without realizing it and got naired for it, do you think I should come on here and say, "Guys, Sheik can't combo Peach with dthrow"? No, I should come on here and say I couldn't do it, could someone confirm.

I just came back from a P:M fest with Vanguard, SOJ, and some others 5 minutes ago, and I'm standing by my original claim. G&W's OoS game is mediocre.

Edit: Seeing as how I play Samus at every Melee fest and tourney I ever enter, and you don't play Samus at all, as far as I know, it would seem like YOU are the one who's theorycrafting. :glare:
 

Tero.

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my 2 cents
haven't played too much of this game but

I think people are putting fox at #1 just cuz. falco is hovering near his rank in melee, and I think fox does worse against the cast than falco does. don't know matchups here, judging from standalone face value

G&W is not as bad as people think. This is admittedly based off of a few matches I played and say, but he definitely improved

D3 is maybe the worst. he's big and slow, and lots of problems derive from these kind of like obesity irl

Did Zelda get some nerfs? last time I checked she was maaaaaad good. why is she just "pretty good" tier?

Ivy for low. she's kinda mediocre. squirtle is actually really good imo, and so is charizard. squirtle will probably be better in the long run.
I'd say DDD is pretty decent. He might be slower than most of the cast but he has incredible range and a really good off stage game.
This plus the fact that he lives really long and can get early kills makes him definitely better that Ness or who else is down there.

Edit: Forgot about the grab game. It's awesome.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Alrighty, my first attempt at a 2.5 tier list. I actually think things are balanced enough to fit everybody into 3 tiers.

A Tier
1. Fox
2. Falco
3. Sheik
4. Peach
5. Pit
6. Marth
7. Mario
8. Jigglypuff

B Tier
9. Diddy Kong
10. Lucario
11. Ike
12. Link
13. Wolf
14. Toon Link
15. Zelda
16. Lucas
17. Snake
18. Captain Falcon
19. Ganondorf
20. Donkey Kong
21. Sonic
22. Pikachu
23. Squirtle

C Tier
24. Bowser
25. ZSS
26. King DDD
27. Charizard
28. ROB
29. Luigi
30. Wario
31. Ivysaur
32. Ness
33. Mr. G&W
 

Slashy

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It's a problem that Ness and Game-Watch were bottom tier in Melee and they're still bottom tier now. I think...

But I'm really in favour of not changing anything unless there are glitches or something massively broken. I feel at some point we should pretend there isn't going to be some patch to fix it, and what we have is what we're stuck with
 

Hylian

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I don't understand the ness hate. I think ness is better than lucas and quite good.

:phone:
 

OkamiBW

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Ness lacks a grapple recovery that Lucas has. Lucas's N-air is also way more useful than Ness's as it's got multiple hitboxes and covers a large amount of space. PK Freeze is about as good as PK Fire, Imo. Perhaps PK Fire is slightly better. I'm not sure, Lucas just feels better.
 

Slashy

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Ness lacks a grapple recovery that Lucas has. Lucas's N-air is also way more useful than Ness's as it's got multiple hitboxes and covers a large amount of space. PK Freeze is about as good as PK Fire, Imo. Perhaps PK Fire is slightly better. I'm not sure, Lucas just feels better.
Lucas' PK Thunder goes through enemies and is easier to control.

I really just want Ness to have reverse ledge grabbing at all times during special fall.
 

DMG

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Ness is... ok. Lucas is pretty good Hylian, you're probably just used to his weight/fast fall status ****** him during combos lol. That's like the only drawback to Lucas: he's gets combod like a Spacie.
 

Hylian

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Ness lacks a grapple recovery that Lucas has. Lucas's N-air is also way more useful than Ness's as it's got multiple hitboxes and covers a large amount of space. PK Freeze is about as good as PK Fire, Imo. Perhaps PK Fire is slightly better. I'm not sure, Lucas just feels better.
Ness has a better recovery than lucas imo. It actually hurts people and doesn't lose to every move that every character has. Lucas's grapple I swear has a hurtbox, because pretty much every character can just stand on the stage and hit lucas out of his grapple recovery in my experience. I don't know why you are comparing their nairs as if that means something lol. Lucas's nair is great when you hit someone, but it's easy to beat out considering its range. Ness's fair is amazing and his pk fire is amazing because it activates on shields. Pk freeze is good to because dacus.

Ness is... ok. Lucas is pretty good Hylian, you're probably just used to his weight/fast fall status ****** him during combos lol. That's like the only drawback to Lucas: he's gets combod like a Spacie.
Yeah Lucas has to be the easiest character to combo in the game. I actually love lucas's moveset as well as ness's and don't really feel like they need to be changed lol. The only thing I might change for both of them are recovery options and how easy they are combo'd.
 

Hylian

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Lucas gets hit so often from his tether because his fat head sticks up above the ledge when reeling in a lot
Lol that makes sense. If that didn't happen I think his recovery would be fine.
 

Kink-Link5

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The only character people are really sleeping on is Game and Watch

and probably DeDeDe.

[collapse=Bunni's 2.5b list version 1.0]A Class
Top Tier
1. :fox: Fox
2. :sheilda: Zelda/Sheik
3. :falco: Falco
4. :jigglypuff: Jigglypuff

Very High Tier
5. :pit: Pit
6. :mario2: Mario
7. :wolf: Wolf
8. :zerosuitsamus: Zero Suit Samus
9. :lucario: Lucario
10. :peach: Peach

B Class
High Tier
11. :toonlink: Toon Link
12. :snake: Snake
13. :dedede: King DeDeDe
14. :marth: Marth
15. :lucas: Lucas
16. :link2: Link
17. :diddy: Diddy Kong
18. :pikachu2: Pikachu
19. :wario: Wario
20. :squirtle: Squirtle
21. :ike: Ike
22. :rob: R.O.B.
23. :charizard: Charizard

C Class
Middle Tier
24. :luigi2: Luigi
25. :falcon: Captain Falcon
26. :ness2: Ness
27. :ganondorf: Ganondorf
28. :ivysaur: Ivysaur
29. :205: Zelda
30. :bowser2: Bowser
31. :sonic: Sonic
32. :dk2: Donkey Kong

D Class
Low Tier
33. :gw: Mr. Game and Watch
[/collapse]

Top is Melee top tier Level

Very High is a smidgen above Melee Peach/Marth Level

High is Melee Marth Level

Middle is Melee Doc/Falcon Level

Low is Melee DK Level
 

Kink-Link5

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Yes for statistics. Zelda/Sheik is using any combination of the character, including Sheik by herself.

Just Zelda is just Zelda, and just Sheik is excluded because people *****ed at me for having 34 characters listed.
 

Slashy

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I wouldn't know how to buff Game-Watch, the only thing I don't really like about him is his terrible roll, either way we should get rid of tiers with only a few characters, otherwise Kink-Link's tier list looks great, and suggests a pretty well balanced game.

Still the roster is not complete, the unfinished characters can GREATLY change the entire tier list
 

Scythe

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GnW is considerably better than his melee counterpart but he's still at the bottom of the tier list.
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
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I'm not understanding how people think DK somehow got tons worse and is one of the worst characters in this when he has a good grab range now and a throw that leads into a guaranteed kill on everyone (other than jiggs) under 100%. getting the grab isn't even harder in this game, its easier!


people who haven't even played against a person who mains a certain character shouldn't be making decisions about where they are on the tier list.


also, this game should have fewer tiers than melee since everyone is trying to be balanced. a tier change is a SIGNIFICANT change in abilities to compete at top level. this game should have 3 or 4 MAX
 

Hylian

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I'm not understanding how people think DK somehow got tons worse and is one of the worst characters in this when he has a good grab range now and a throw that leads into a guaranteed kill on everyone (other than jiggs) under 100%. getting the grab isn't even harder in this game, its easier!


people who haven't even played against a person who mains a certain character shouldn't be making decisions about where they are on the tier list.


also, this game should have fewer tiers than melee since everyone is trying to be balanced. a tier change is a SIGNIFICANT change in abilities to compete at top level. this game should have 3 or 4 MAX
Most people I talk to think DK is insanely good lol. I also think DK is top 10 in the game.
 

DvarakElt

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So, has anybody bothered to make a matchup chart?

If someone made one of those it would be easier to tweak and discuss than just making up Tier lists that are IMO irrelevant to the actual game.

Seriously, we should discuss every character matchup independantly. There is no true best or worst character anymore. Every character is going to have some good matchups and some bad matchups.

This matchupchart is going to look more like a pokémon type effectiveness chart and less like the gradient that we had in brawl melee.
 

Stunts

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GnW is considerably better than his melee counterpart but he's still at the bottom of the tier list.
THANK YOU! You wouldn't know how many people I talked to who says

"This GnW isn't as good as he was in melee...He's not as powerful...His recovery is worse...He's slower...etc"
I mean seriously, go play GnW in melee then switch to P:M.
It's one thing to say he's not that good of P:M character, but melee? He's not even as bad of P:M character, imho. Chairtilt for the win.
 

Kink-Link5

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I'm not understanding how people think DK somehow got tons worse and is one of the worst characters in this when he has a good grab range now and a throw that leads into a guaranteed kill on everyone (other than jiggs) under 100%. getting the grab isn't even harder in this game, its easier!


people who haven't even played against a person who mains a certain character shouldn't be making decisions about where they are on the tier list.


also, this game should have fewer tiers than melee since everyone is trying to be balanced. a tier change is a SIGNIFICANT change in abilities to compete at top level. this game should have 3 or 4 MAX
Who has ever put DK as getting worse? The worst I've seen him placed is in my own list at C Tier.
 

DMG

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There is no true best or worst character anymore.
Ahahaha

Look everyone, he made a funny joke!

The game isn't at that kind of point yet. It's not. If you're telling me a Spacie is comparable to Ness, you're wrong.

While characters are "better" than they were in Melee, there's been a bit of a power creep in characters and what level it takes to stay relavant competitively may not be the same as it was before. Everyone being better than, say Melee Mario, doesn't mean your competitive viability matches Melee Mario. There's a difference between Fox Falco Marth Sheik Peach Jiggs 2.1 Ike and people who aren't there yet lol.


also, this game should have fewer tiers than melee since everyone is trying to be balanced. a tier change is a SIGNIFICANT change in abilities to compete at top level. this game should have 3 or 4 MAX
This should only be the case if the game balance truly reflects that. Again, from a character "power" perspective, that seems to be the case because just about everyone was buffed up beyond the lower Melee cast. But that's not an indicator that balance or MU's will filter through 3-4 tiers. The worst character in PM could be better than Melee Pika, but 4x less viable because everyone else is that much better, and the tier list should accurately reflect that in both placement and tier spreads.
 

Slashy

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I don't get it, why can't Game-Watch airdodge out of upspecial? Sonic can and he has a very good recovery
 

Wizzrobe

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I don't get it, why can't Game-Watch airdodge out of upspecial? Sonic can and he has a very good recovery
Sonic has to whiff an aerial after Up B for Airdodge to work, so that could maybe be the same for G&W but you would have to test it out to know for sure.
 

DMG

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Sonic also has, ya know, mixups to his recovery and isn't stuck with only Upb lol
 

DrinkingFood

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Sonic also doesn't happen to be lacking mobility options, so it's not like he needs to be able to air dodge out of up-b for fast movement. GaW on the other hand, desparately needs a little more onstage presence, and yet...
 

Vashimus

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Maybe the parachute after the Up-B can come back?

....Please?


Who has ever put DK as getting worse? The worst I've seen him placed is in my own list at C Tier.
Well, you did place him second to last, so I guess that's what he assumed, rather than everyone in the tier being at that level.
 
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