Tier List Speculation

[DMG]

Sonic also doesn't happen to be lacking mobility options, so it's not like he needs to be able to air dodge out of up-b for fast movement. GaW on the other hand, desparately needs a little more onstage presence, and yet...

Give G^W a broccoli sword like Ike has

Edit: PM DK in comparison to other PM characters is very good. So what if he's predictable? He's very effective at what he does, and besides the herp Falco MU and probably some issue with the upclose/Sheiks of the game, he seems fine. The dash attack stuff has yet to be fully explored and refined, it's so good as an offstage tool. I wouldn't put DK above quite a few notable threats, but he's in a darn good place right now and I'd be wary of buffing him.

 

[DrinkingFood]

The only reservation I have about the claim of DK's DA as an offstage tool being unexplored is the fact that his ****ty vertical recovery and lack of walljump pretty much limit him to DJ-> aerial or DJ-> side-b, the latter of which I don't think I've seen used. I don't think it's really unexplored except for use of going off platforms while onstage. In fact I think i'll experiment with that sometime soon. Dash->cstick down allows him to ignore the 3 frames during which it cancels into fsmash, so tbh there shouldn't be any times that he can't roll off a platform instead of falling if the player thinks it would be advantageous, but I can't remember how lenient his actions out of it are with the exception of jumping.

 

[DMG]

You can use it off platforms too to go offstage. More useful on some stages than others. You can also use it to chase Dthrow setups that people DI and barely go offstage with. Like on floaties, if they do DI in or no DI, you get a free hit, and if they DI away you can chase after.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Oh I see I misunderstood. I thought you meant in terms of what can be done after it, not what it can follow.

 

[Archangel]

Maybe the parachute after the Up-B can come back?

....Please?

I like this idea.

 

[No U]

this is the ultimate tier list and you're wrong if you disagree

Reasonably amazing tier:

lucas
falco
peach
fox
pikachu
ivysaur
marth
mario
diddy
lucario
sheik
wolf
ike

Amazingly reasonable tier:

charizard
sonic
jiggs
zelda
bowser
link
game & watch (haters gonna hate)
luigi
donkey kong
pit

Still totally viable but you might maybe kinda have to work harder a little tier:

squirtle
wario
captain falcon
ganondorf
snake
dedede
rob
ness
toon link
zero suit samus

 

[GHNeko]

i like this tier list more than most of them in here.

 

[bubbaking]

Bubbaking, you should've gone to APEX. It was in your backyard. No johns.

#inactivebubbakingftw

Uh, ask anyone who knows me. I live in VA now. Secondly, I have no money. I can barely afford to go to a local now, let alone a national for which it was fairly expensive just to spectate and for which I'd have ended up spending at least thrice as much money on housing as I'd have spent on the actual tournament. Finally, I actually HAVE been going to P:M events while also bringing my own set-up to Melee/vBrawl fests and tourneys in order to get P:M promoted. I'm one of the only people on LI (maybe even in NY) who bothered to host a tourney for P:M singles and doubles. Just last night, I came back from a P:M tourney (for which I had to be spotted in an event because I had no money). Besides, I really wouldn't go to APEX just for P:M, not when I have no chance of being in a tourney for it. The number of legitimate "johns" I have is legendary.

Tl;dr - There are many more ways to be active than to go to an (inter)national.

 

[`dazrin]

Stay on topic, folks.

 

[bubbaking]

Well I was simply responding to the last post directed at me.

After playing against Iota's (aka mini-Reflex) Wario a bunch yesterday, I think I'm reforming my opinion of his viability. He's definitely got some nice tricks up his sleeve and he can kill SO EARLY, especially during forced tech-chases, but I still think he isn't any higher than Mid Tier. To be fair, I had literally zero 2.5 Wario experience before yesterday (although I've played against a bit of 2.1 Wario), but once I figured out his tricks, it was a lot smoother. Even though he's heavy, a lackluster recover still hurts his survivability a great deal, and more than once he SD'd while trying to go for a close dair meteor. Also, keep a good bit of distance and you can react to his sideB/grab mix-ups.

Still, he's definitely risen a lot in my own personal opinion of him. I think he's a lot better than Luigi and Ness, and maybe even Sonic. That added Bite mobility and his new fthrow also did a really great deal for him. I'm probably gonna raise him 3 spots in my personal tier list.

 

[DvarakElt]

Ahahaha

Look everyone, he made a funny joke!

The game isn't at that kind of point yet. It's not. If you're telling me a Spacie is comparable to Ness, you're wrong.

While characters are "better" than they were in Melee, there's been a bit of a power creep in characters and what level it takes to stay relavant competitively may not be the same as it was before. Everyone being better than, say Melee Mario, doesn't mean your competitive viability matches Melee Mario. There's a difference between Fox Falco Marth Sheik Peach Jiggs 2.1 Ike and people who aren't there yet lol.




This should only be the case if the game balance truly reflects that. Again, from a character "power" perspective, that seems to be the case because just about everyone was buffed up beyond the lower Melee cast. But that's not an indicator that balance or MU's will filter through 3-4 tiers. The worst character in PM could be better than Melee Pika, but 4x less viable because everyone else is that much better, and the tier list should accurately reflect that in both placement and tier spreads.

Wow aren't you a bit of a condecending *******.
No I never implied that Fox was comparable to Ness.
What I was saying is that the game is less about tiers and more about matchups. Fox may have a lot of good matchups, but he will also have some bad matchups. Ness may have mainly bad matchups, but he probably has some good matchups too.(And not just against other weaker characters.

What I'm trying to do here is drum up some enthusiasim for creating a matchup chart. I think that it would be more interesting, more relevant, and create more relevant discussion, then all these essentially meaningless tier lists that everyone keeps throwing up.

The lists in this thread are mostly baseless speculation. Sure there are some trends, but the middle is muddled and there is no concensus other than spacies are good and Ness and G&W are bad.

However. It may be possible to come to a conclusion on specific matchups, We can then get a grander perspective than the one you get from a melee style tier list.

I understand why tierlists are popular to make. They are easy and don't require any intiment knowledge of individual characters. Just a gut instinct and a thick skin. (And hopefully now you see why tierlists not made by a panel of some of the best players in the world are kind of useless.)

A matchup chart doesn't need that panel as badly you only have to know two characters well to create a matchup estimate between them.

 

[outofphase]

my updated list, having played every character for a few hours. admitted melee bias

top tier: can stand toe to toe with anybody and win

1. falco
2. fox
3. diddy
4. sheik
5. mario
6. marth
7. pit
8. peach

high tier: have glaring flaws, still viable

9. lucario
10. sonic
11. falcon
12. jiggs
13. ike
14. wolf

mid tier: largely-somewhat viable

15. zss
16. lucas
17. pika
18. ness
19. squirtle
20. donkey kong

low tier: requires trickery/hard reads/gimmicks to be viable

21. ivysaur
22. ganon
23. toon link
24. rob
25. snake
26. zelda
27. charizard
28. link
29. wario
30. dedede
31. luigi
bottom tier: useless/ completely nonviable

32. bowser
33. gnw

im sure there are more bottom tiers, just havent figured out who. probably less top tiers as well. i feel like high and low will be huge once the game evolves. the others smaller.

 

[Scythe]

bottom tier: useless/ completely nonviable

32. bowser

very wrong, bowser is a fortress in this game, like a more viable ganon.

 

[DMG]

A matchup chart doesn't need that panel as badly you only have to know two characters well to create a matchup estimate between them.

Tiers and MU's go hand in hand. If you hardly have any winning MU's, can't deal with the better characters, or have a lot of really bad MU's, you're viability would likely be many tiers away from the better characters. Saying tiers don't matter for the game is along the lines of "MU spreads are fairly similar between characters and gaps in viability aren't huge". Both I'd disagree with heavily, even if they've improved from Melee specifically. Either way you slice it, you can't look at a group of characters like the Spacies, then compare them to Ness, and say "I guess there are only 2 tiers of characters: viable and not" lol.

MU chart is a great idea, but I think you underestimate how long it would take to fully and meaningfully flesh out a bajillion MU's (with stages factored in as well) and done so in a way that the community agrees on. Obvious stuff like Falco pooing on DK sure, but who's done Wario vs G^W? Squirtle just came out: how developed do you think he is vs Spacies? etc

 

[DvarakElt]

Tiers and MU's go hand in hand. If you hardly have any winning MU's, can't deal with the better characters, or have a lot of really bad MU's, you're viability would likely be many tiers away from the better characters. Saying tiers don't matter for the game is along the lines of "MU spreads are fairly similar between characters and gaps in viability aren't huge". Both I'd disagree with heavily, even if they've improved from Melee specifically. Either way you slice it, you can't look at a group of characters like the Spacies, then compare them to Ness, and say "I guess there are only 2 tiers of characters: viable and not" lol.

My you sure do like reading my comments and infering that I said something dumb. I never said any of that.
Yes tiers do exist and yes some characters are much better than others. what I'm saying is that they are blurier now. (Somthing I think everyone should agree with.) And that we'll see more of the weird stuff like Young Link being a viable counterpick for puff in melee despite being several tiers apart.

Anyway I'm making a matchup chart: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=332842

 

[Stunts]

everybody's viable. just putting that out there.

Also, why do I have the feeling that most of these people who made these list haven't even played as all the characters yet?

 

[Jandlebars]

everybody's viable. just putting that out there.

Also, why do I have the feeling that most of these people who made these list haven't even played as all the characters yet?

Enthusiasm to contribute, possibly? >.>'
There's, of course, no reason why people can't lend their experience regarding characters that they face and how they may compare, but like others have said, if a player doesn't main (or at least play them as a secondary) a specific character, they probably shouldn't be quick to try to push for their placing.

All that out of the way, I'm surprised to see Zamus sitting in the lower tiers so frequently. I've never seen how she fairs in any tournaments, though, so my lack of understanding probably stems from there.

 

[DMG]

Also, why do I have the feeling that most of these people who made these list haven't even played as all the characters yet?

Because it's really hard to be really good with a bunch of different characters/keep up with the nerfs and buffs/new characters throw a wrench in what was previously "standard".

 

[bubbaking]

But I'm really in favour of not changing anything unless there are glitches or something massively broken. I feel at some point we should pretend there isn't going to be some patch to fix it, and what we have is what we're stuck with

That's against the whole prospect of balance that we were promised, though...

Ness has a better recovery than lucas imo. It actually hurts people and doesn't lose to every move that every character has.

Don't Lucas' and Ness' PKT2's have the same hitbox priority? Also, Lucas' PKT2 has enough KB to make it safe, especially with the move's 10 or so frames of landing lag. I actually find it easier to hit Ness out of his PKT2 than to hit Lucas. Don't forget that Lucas' PKT has more maneuverability so he has access to more angles and can perform PKT2 faster, giving him better recovery mix-ups.

Top is Melee top tier Level

Very High is a smidgen above Melee Peach/Marth Level

High is Melee Marth Level

Middle is Melee Doc/Falcon Level

Low is Melee DK Level

Still don't see how someone can compare Falcon and Doc as if they were even close to the same level. It's like trying to presume that Melee Peach is Top Tier... (-_-)

Still the roster is not complete, the unfinished characters can GREATLY change the entire tier list

Well yeah, that's true, but our tier list speculations are specifically geared towards v2.5b. Any changes or new chars introduced in future versions should have literally NOTHING to do with our thoughts about the current metagame.

I'm not understanding how people think DK somehow got tons worse and is one of the worst characters in this when he has a good grab range now and a throw that leads into a guaranteed kill on everyone (other than jiggs) under 100%. getting the grab isn't even harder in this game, its easier!

Dude, no one is saying DK is worse, because you're right, he's strictly better, but some people are saying, in comparison to everyone else (who ALSO improved), DK is worse. A great example is Link, who was pretty bad in Melee but skyrocketed up in P:M.

also, this game should have fewer tiers than melee since everyone is trying to be balanced. a tier change is a SIGNIFICANT change in abilities to compete at top level. this game should have 3 or 4 MAX

I agree with 4 tiers. This game's a bit more balanced than some are making it out to be.

Most people I talk to think DK is insanely good lol. I also think DK is top 10 in the game.

You just think that because you lose to DK.....

So, has anybody bothered to make a matchup chart?

If someone made one of those it would be easier to tweak and discuss than just making up Tier lists that are IMO irrelevant to the actual game.

I know on Smods, each char-specific sub-forum had its own MU chart thread. It would probably be best to do the same here and not try to bring that to this tier list thread. Perhaps a separate thread could be made under "General Discussion" that discusses everyone's MUs together. It would be cool if different 'panels' got together and debated MU values like they do for vBrawl's MU chart.

Maybe the parachute after the Up-B can come back?

....Please?

And while we're at it, let's give him back his fishbowl nair. I'm not being sarcastic; I'm actually serious. Someone in the PMBR told me that giving Game both his parachute nair and his fishbowl nair the way Minus did (tap A for vBrawl; hold A for Melee) would be "unprofessional", but how would that be any less professional than having A+B inputs for Lucario as well as a cancelling system?

The fishbowl nair would help Watch a lot, IMO, giving him a safe move to use at neutral that could start/extend combos and provide easier TCs. It would also be easier to capitalize off of small hits, like bacon.

 

[Vashimus]

everybody's viable. just putting that out there.

Also, why do I have the feeling that most of these people who made these list haven't even played as all the characters yet?

Well, it's easier to look at the cast as a whole and tier them based on your experience and opinions than to evaluate 528 separate matchups, each with their own analysis. I can't blame people. The matchup threads are trying to tackle that, but it'll take a while.

 

[Avalancer]

bottom tier: Useless/ completely nonviable
32. Bowser

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA FUNNY JOKE

edit: why wont it caps

 

[Archangel]

Bowser is rigged. Minus a few MU's he pretty much goes close to even-ish or ****s up everyone. I think he's pretty solid.....so how does he end up SUPER 2nd to worst in the game?

 

[bubbaking]

He's solidly mid, IMO. He destroys some, gets destroyed by some, and goes even with a few. He's one of the most stage-dependent chars there is.

 

[Archangel]

That is very true. Alot of his viability depends onstage picks...but that could be said about many characters. I find the lack of something resembling and official stage list for PM somewhat....problematic.

 

[bubbaking]

Indeed that is true. I would like to suggest that, for now, we might as well count the entire 1st page as the "official stagelist" even though there are some Page 2 stages that I personally see as better than some Page 1 stages.

The only reservation I have about the claim of DK's DA as an offstage tool being unexplored is the fact that his ****ty vertical recovery and lack of walljump pretty much limit him to DJ-> aerial or DJ-> side-b, the latter of which I don't think I've seen used. I don't think it's really unexplored except for use of going off platforms while onstage. In fact I think i'll experiment with that sometime soon. Dash->cstick down allows him to ignore the 3 frames during which it cancels into fsmash, so tbh there shouldn't be any times that he can't roll off a platform instead of falling if the player thinks it would be advantageous, but I can't remember how lenient his actions out of it are with the exception of jumping.

Just wanted to add that I believe DK's DA also has some light damage armor on it, but don't quote me on that. I think it can barrel (pun intended ) through things like the Mario Bros' fireballs and such, making it a good approaching tool in some MUs.

No I never implied that Fox was comparable to Ness.
What I was saying is that the game is less about tiers and more about matchups. Fox may have a lot of good matchups, but he will also have some bad matchups. Ness may have mainly bad matchups, but he probably has some good matchups too.(And not just against other weaker characters.

Tbh, I really don't think Fox has any bad MUs, hence my (and probably many others') placement of him at #1 on the tier list. He has a couple evens, sure, which I guess are 'bad' MUs for him, but no disadvantageous ones. Back in 2.1, I had Lucario in the same exact boat, no bad MUs but a couple of possible evens. I think that's why some people, like DMG, strongly disagree with you when you say something like:

There is no true best or worst character anymore. Every character is going to have some good matchups and some bad matchups.

This just isn't necessarily true.

What I'm trying to do here is drum up some enthusiasim for creating a matchup chart. I think that it would be more interesting, more relevant, and create more relevant discussion, then all these essentially meaningless tier lists that everyone keeps throwing up.

The lists in this thread are mostly baseless speculation. Sure there are some trends, but the middle is muddled and there is no concensus other than spacies are good and Ness and G&W are bad.

However. It may be possible to come to a conclusion on specific matchups, We can then get a grander perspective than the one you get from a melee style tier list.

I understand why tierlists are popular to make. They are easy and don't require any intiment knowledge of individual characters. Just a gut instinct and a thick skin. (And hopefully now you see why tierlists not made by a panel of some of the best players in the world are kind of useless.)

A matchup chart doesn't need that panel as badly you only have to know two characters well to create a matchup estimate between them.

I'd be up for creating a universal MU chart, but I checked your thread and I'm not sure if I agree with the format you're going with. For one, your survey assumes that everyone only mains one character when I personally often use at least two characters in tournament.

All that out of the way, I'm surprised to see Zamus sitting in the lower tiers so frequently. I've never seen how she fairs in any tournaments, though, so my lack of understanding probably stems from there.

I'm surprised by anyone who puts her in Low Tier along with G&W. She's solidly at least Mid (High IMO). Leffen got 4th with her in that 16-man invitational tourney at Apex and that was filled with high-level players and great character diversity.

 

[Vashimus]

Bubbaking's sig is funny because it's true.

 

[outofphase]

lol bowser gets slampieced by falco, fox, diddy, marth, and ike. all very likely to be widely used characters as the game progresses. he might not necessarily be 32, but hes definitely not gonna be a tournament winning character in the future and hes one of the two im sure about that with. other characters i feel have more unseen potential.

 

[bubbaking]

"One of the two"? Who's the other?

 

[outofphase]

gnw.

10chars

 

[Archangel]

Spacies don't **** bowser as much as you might think...at least not a good one.

unless you go to a giant stage and try to out came him...

which brings us back to the point about stages.

 

[Vashimus]

lol bowser gets slampieced by falco, fox, diddy, marth, and ike. all very likely to be widely used characters as the game progresses.

That's why he's mid. And didn't the tournament result thread already show Bowser winning them? One was Gimpyfish recently, but there was another guy before that. Kirk was it?

 

[DvarakElt]

Bubba, it says right in my thread you can do the poll multiple times with different characters if you want.

 

[bubbaking]

Well yeah, but didn't cmart's Bowser also get dead last at that Apex Invitational?

 

[Kink-Link5]

You should probably stand a different format for the poll still anyway. Pitch in for up to 3 character matchups on the page, but only allow a given IP address to vote once for three matchups. A returning IP Address can not cast their vote again, and one can not select the same character matchup multiple times.

 

[bubbaking]

Some people are proficient with more than three characters and play against way more than three other characters as well. That equates to well over 10 MUs per person. I, myself, can play Lucario, Snake, and ROB quite well and I have tons of experience against Bowser, Zelda, Sonic, Ike, Zard, and a bunch of others. Limiting how many MUs one can give input on is really restricting and bad, imho.

 

[DvarakElt]

It has IP tracking, so I can tell if people vote for the same character a bunch.
The way it is now is the least fuss thing I could think of.

 

[Vashimus]

This reminds me of when Ellondu did a character popularity list and he forced us to pick 3 characters, and people got testy. lol

 

[bubbaking]

Well yeah. There are a bunch of chars and I can actually claim to main at least three of them. I've also used ALL three of them in tournament, and once I get better at this game, I might actually use more. I think Eli said at one point on Smods that he'd be willing to use 5+ chars in tournament.

 

[OkamiBW]

Well yeah, but didn't cmart's Bowser also get dead last at that Apex Invitational?

While taking a game off of Hungrybox.

Tournament was stacked anyways.

Also, Sheik and Mario beat Bowser way better than spacies, Imo.

 

[Scythe]

Falco:Bowser is like 70:30
Fox:Bowser(this one is really stage dependant) and Wolf:Bowser are like 50:50