Tier List Speculation

[GMaster171]

Was just playing against Mario, guess what happened?
[COLLAPSE="Pics in collapse"]

[/COLLAPSE]
...Cape for lamest move in game...

In case you don't get it, he caped me while i was attacking, this resulted in Ness going into a t-stance until landing, unable to attack, jump, up-b, or even grab the ledge.

durp.

Then again, even without the cape, Mario still has enough options to be a contender for those spots just below the spacies, I feel like he can body most, if not all, characters.

 

[GunBlaze]

Damn it, Cape. Stahp.

 

[DvarakElt]

Just caped a Falcon grabing the edge of final destination. He warped to the middle of the stage and glitched for half a second and then landed.

 

[Tmacc]

Duh. Anyone who didn't realize cape is op has never been caped.

Mario for cape tier.

 

[Vashimus]

Seeing that picture made me laugh harder than I should of.

I just imagined Ness on a diving board with that pose and just jumping into the lava.

 

[bubbaking]

But honestly, I can't see Mario being any lower than a place in A tier (top of B at the least imo). He just has too many tools that work on too much of the cast.

I don't really like referring to tiers as letters because it is unclear whether you view Top Tier as S Tier or A Tier.

If puff gets taken to Yoshi Story, Wario Ware or Metal cavern, where Bowser can escape to the edge any time he wants, and his fair covers almost half the entire stage, Puff gets cornered and slapped. If puff has room to escape and bait, Puff wins rather easily iirc.

I definitely agree with YS and WW, but I'm not so sure about MC. Sure the stage is small, but the large blastzones give Jiggs a little bit of added survivability while also giving her added chances to gimp Bowser early.

IAlso if Bowser is ever off stage he can't do anything about cape, it completely destroys him.

Well Boozer could always recover high and get that super low-lag landing.....

 

[Scythe]

if he tries to recover over mario, mario can still use the absurd hitbox to cape bowser as bowser is already passed mario and since it's the brawl cape the momentum will take bowser off stage and he will die.

 

[bubbaking]

I meant really high. Like to top platforms and such. It was a Melee Boozer strat too. Either recover low to the ledge or really high to top plats. Recovering somewhere in the middle is usually really bad.

 

[Scythe]

depends on the stage and how early bowser upb's i guess. Mario is pretty fast wavelanding on platforms and can probably catch bowser. Also if it's kill percent he can just fair if Bowser tries to go high.

 

[bubbaking]

Was just playing against Mario, guess what happened?
[COLLAPSE="Pics in collapse"]

[/COLLAPSE]
...Cape for lamest move in game...

In case you don't get it, he caped me while i was attacking, this resulted in Ness going into a t-stance until landing, unable to attack, jump, up-b, or even grab the ledge.

durp.

Is that a glitch present on everyone's copy of P:M v2.5b or is that specific to your copy? I've literally never seen this happen...

Just caped a Falcon grabing the edge of final destination. He warped to the middle of the stage and glitched for half a second and then landed.

This sounds very similar to a glitch in Melee. If Mario capes someone performing some ledge get-up action (I think it's roll or attack or something), that character will teleport across the stage and get knocked down.

 

[GMaster171]

Well I don't know exactly, but I'v been able to make Ness t-stance somehow since 2.1 rofl.

It worked with both versions of the Homebrew set, and on my friends hackless SD method. I cant really try doing the glitch alone very well, but its happened at least once every 2 or 3 matches when I'm against Mario.

If you want to try, get a friend to cape you as you both do a full DJ, and an aerial. Done right it should put him into that state. As well, I don't know for sure, but because of the similar mechanics, and the fact Lucas could T-stance in 2.1 as well, I imagine the exact same thing will happen if you hit Lucas in the same way. Its a pain cause its not really a rare glitch, considering how often it happened...

I go with the Melee tier list, with A being the highest, don't really think a game that's supposed to be as balanced as P:M should really have a S tier, kinda goes against the balance (that one or two character are so much better that they exist in their own level)

@stages
Well this is just how I see it, but even though MC has larger stage borders, it poses the exact same problem for Puff in the match, Bowser can still cover half the stage with a fair, and can almost always safely excape to one of the edges with a up-b. It may require a couple more hits, but the problem still exists that Puff has nowhere to run from the hits on the stage. As well, I'm pretty sure gimping doesnt really depend on the borders, other than being able to DI higher in some cases. Jiggs can bair Bowser off of either stage just as easily, just taking one more bair for MC.

 

[bubbaking]

I go with the Melee tier list, with A being the highest, don't really think a game that's supposed to be as balanced as P:M should really have a S tier, kinda goes against the balance (that one or two character are so much better that they exist in their own level)

Well, you know, Melee's tier list actually has an S Tier for those 4 chars way above the rest. I do agree, however, that P:M is more balanced than Melee, but I still think P:M has its own rather small S tier that consists of the spacees and Sheik (no more Jiggs, though).

@stages
Well this is just how I see it, but even though MC has larger stage borders, it poses the exact same problem for Puff in the match, Bowser can still cover half the stage with a fair, and can almost always safely excape to one of the edges with a up-b. It may require a couple more hits, but the problem still exists that Puff has nowhere to run from the hits on the stage. As well, I'm pretty sure gimping doesnt really depend on the borders, other than being able to DI higher in some cases. Jiggs can bair Bowser off of either stage just as easily, just taking one more bair for MC.

Well that's just the thing. If Jiggs gets to live a bit longer but still gets to gimp Bowser just as early as on other large stages, then it's a plus. It's not a big plus (and isn't that good for Jiggs), but I personally think Bowser should just depend more on YS, WW, and FoD.

 

[yahyakun]

i dont agree that wario is 28. ill rather put CF on 28 instead of wario.

Also, ganon should be -S tier. and lucario is rly high, he should be about 20, not number 4.

just saying...

 

[Zerudahime]

there is no way zelda is 26th.. >,>

 

[\Apples]

I suppose since this list is being averaged, I'll include my own. I'm curious to see what the general cumulative opinion is on the cast.

Top
1. Falco

2. Fox

3. Mario

4. Sheik

5. Peach

6. Sonic

7. Jigglypuff

8. Wario

Mid
9. Marth

10. Bowser

11. Captain Falcon

12. King DeDeDe

13. Lucas

14. Ivysaur

15. Pit

16. Snake

17. R.O.B.

18. Diddy Kong

19. Wolf

20. Lucario

21. Donkey Kong

22. Toon Link

23. Pikachu

Low
24. Link

25. Ganondorf

26. Ike

27. Ness

28. Game and Watch

29. Zelda

30. Charizard

31. Luigi

32. Squirtle

33. Zero Suit Samus

Probably some shockers on there for some people. I used only 3 tiers because I think it more accurately illustrates the difference from top to bottom.

Yes, I have seen Leffen's ZSS. As much as I love her, yes, I still think she's bad.
Yes, Link is below Tink.
Yes, R.O.B. is up there.

I'd also like to say... WTF is wrong with all you people putting Wario on the bottom? Sooo bad... people still think he's bad and it blows my mind. He's easily in the top 10. I've been saying this since 2.1 and it's a shame I don't have time to travel for tournaments to prove it. Thankfully, you guys can watch Reflex's now.

Also DeDeDe... he is super good.

Also Bowser. The guy is insane. UpB to the ledge is broke. His edgeguarding game is unbelievable. He gets beat by zoners and goes even with most of the rest of the cast. Hell, I think he even beats spacies but that's a-whole-nother story.

I should also note that I don't think any of the characters need any buffs at all, save for ZSS. (If anything, I feel the power level of most of the cast is a little high and should be toned down a tiny tad. (Recoveries are out of hand.)) But everyone is pretty darn solid and the average interval between characters is really pretty small as far as I can tell, but there still has to be a best and worst. :/

Cheers.

 

[Translucent]

Squirtle and Ike are quite low, but mad props for Wario! I'm still not convinced that he is top 8, but I definitely don't think he's low tier.

 

[bubbaking]

My somewhat updated, but still undoubtedly inaccurate opinion of 2.5's tier list:

Top (S) Tier




High (A) Tier





-5












Mid (B) Tier







+3
+1




Low (C ) Tier


Again, the presence of a char in a tier means more than the actual order of the tier. In other words, Zelda being in High Tier together with Peach is more important than her placement near the bottom of High Tier. I don't think order can be established so confidently yet, not until we have more data (and I play this game more). As one can probably notice, no chars actually changed tiers, so nothing drastic happened.

 

[Translucent]

I like your list Bubbaking, but I still think Wario is at least around the middle of the cast.

 

[\Apples]

at least

Also, Game and Watch is fine.

 

[bubbaking]

It's possible, but I'm still getting exposure to 2.5 Wario. I was surprised by how good he can actually be, but I'm gonna need to play against him a lot more.

Edit: And "middle of the cast" would still be around Mid Tier, which, tbh, isn't too big a change from where I have him now. Future lists might see him rise a bit more.

 

[\Apples]

It's possible, but I'm still getting exposure to 2.5 Wario. I was surprised by how good he can actually be, but I'm gonna need to play against him a lot more.

This is pretty much where I think most people are. It was worse in 2.1, and people put him so low just because either A. The people they play against are terrible with the guy. B. They're terrible with the guy. or C. Nobody plays him, so nobody knows **** about him but think they do. (most common case, in my experience)

On that note, I should also note that I don't know **** about Lucario and my placement of him is purely a guess. Everyone else though, I feel I'm pretty knowledgeable about.

 

[Translucent]

I like your Squirtle placement Bubba, I think he is around mid. Wario is an extremely viable character, he just needs to be explored a ton more just like a lot of the Brawl characters.

 

[\Apples]

I'm just saying, even in Reflex's APEX videos it looks like he's playing pretty sloppy. I still think Reflex is a good player, still probably better than myself. I haven't seen his when he's playing at his best, but I know when mine and 4%'s Warios are on point, the guy is unstoppable. A lot of the people we play with think he's top 5. I used to agree but I've since knocked him down a tiny bit.

My guess is he can play that Wario even better than he did.

 

[bubbaking]

This is pretty much where I think most people are. It was worse in 2.1, and people put him so low just because either A. The people they play against are terrible with the guy. B. They're terrible with the guy. or C. Nobody plays him, so nobody knows **** about him but think they do. (most common case, in my experience)

It doesn't help that his best user, Reflex, was also saying that he was around the bottom 5.

 

[\Apples]

It doesn't help that his best user, Reflex, was also saying that he was around the bottom 5.

Yeah, and I still disagree with even him on that point. But that's fine with me.

 

[DMG]

It doesn't help that his best user, Reflex, was also saying that he was around the bottom 5.

Wario was pretty bad. He got a lot of tweaks and buffs.

1. Waft now doesn't put you into helpless, and has more vertical KB.

2. You can move with Bite (and I think the throw angle of bite was made better, or the knockback was made to give Wario better mixups on the move)

3. Throw angles for Fthrow and Dthrow were improved to give him a better combo/TC game. Dthrow also does more damage

4. Side B priority was buffed and can now grow to beat certain projectiles and attacks as the move progresses. Side B cancel was also improved

5. Nair, Uair, and Bair were buffed to be more reliable (anyone remember how short of a duration his old Bair was?) Tilts were buffed or tweaked a bit in more positive direction

6. Multi hit Usmash and Upb now link better

7. Dash Grab was buffed to give you control over how long you imitate Shoulder Bash before grabbing.

Like literally, 80% of Wario's moveset got buffs. It's kinda major lol

Yeah, and I still disagree with even him on that point. But that's fine with me.

Wario got a LOT of love and I don't agree with the idea that 2.1 Wario was anything good. Top 5-8 in 2.1 means he would have been arguably as good or better than 2.1 Ike and Lucario, or Sheik Marth Mario etc etc upper characters. That's a claim I will call BS any day of the week lol. Wario used to be incredibly janky and I absolutely agree he was one of the worse characters in 2.1 God bless you if you mained 2.1 Wario and made it work, because he honestly wasn't on par with the rest of the cast.

 

[Vashimus]

Maybe if we keep saying GnW sucks, he'll become really good too.

 

[BJN39]

I think I'll set out my second public list release, details inside.

[COLLAPSE="My List Public release V2 (Subject to change)"]S
1. Fox
2. Falco
A+
3. Mario
4. Snake
A
5. Peach
6. Zelda
7. Sheik
8. Jigglypuff
9. Marth
10. Lucario
11. Ike
B+
12. Pit
13. Link
14. Ganondorf
15. Diddy Kong
B
16. Wolf
17. Sonic
18. Bowser
19. Squirtle
20. Captain Falcon
C+
21. Wario
22. Pikachu
23. Ness
24. Charizard
25. ROB
26. Donkey Kong
C
27. Ivysaur
28. Toon Link
29. King Dedede
30. Luigi
31. Lucas
32. Zero Suit Samus
33. Mr. Game & Watch

Notes:
* The characters in A tier i feel are all very close (like, super close) this is just the order I chose.

* C tier's entirety is more of a limbo tier for now, (the order, is my opinion though) most of the characters are underplayed, and my opinion of them will likely change when I see more of them. Some tho...
[/COLLAPSE]

 

[BTmoney]

Is that your list the result of the lists so far? (I like most of it)
Snake is what is confusing me

I am calling Falco's fall from grace btw. Same for Falcon.

 

[Vixen]

you guys consistently put mario way too high. :|

 

[Translucent]

Mario is a fantastic character, he has a bunch of great options.

 

[BTmoney]

Yeah Mario is great, like great lol. I'd say he's about as viable as marth so he shouldn't be THAT high

 

[BJN39]

Is that your list the result of the lists so far? (I like most of it)
Snake is what is confusing me

I am calling Falco's fall from grace btw. Same for Falcon.

I'm sort of confused on what you're saying, but no. This isn't the compiled averages list. It's just my current list. If that's what you're asking.

Edit: I changed it for future clarification.

 

[BTmoney]

I'm sort of confused on what you're saying, but no. This isn't the compiled averages list. It's just my current list. If that's what you're asking.

Edit: I changed it for future clarification.

Yes, excuse me if that came off as a train wreck.

I'll expand on my other point though, something about falco tells me he won't be able to maintain that elite company with fox. It's really nothing more than a hunch (and how dramatically sad his firebird recovery looks in PM)

Also, while I think Falcon won't be as high as Melee falcon, I think 20/33 is a tad low. He needs to be where Ganon is right now but due to some MUs everything between Falcon and Ganon would have to change

 

[KayB]

Top:
1. :foxbrawl:
2. :falcobrawl:
3. :sheikbrawl:

High:
4. :marthbrawl:
5. eachbrawl:
6. :mariobrawl:
7. :bowserbrawl:
8. :jigglypuffbrawl:
9. :lucariobrawl:
10. :falconbrawl:
11: :sonicbrawl:
12. :ikebrawl:
13: :robbrawl:

Mid or (Top -):
14. :diddybrawl:
15. :linkbrawl:
16. :wolfbrawl:
17. :toonlinkbrawl:
18. :wariobrawl:
19. :snakebrawl:
20. ikachubrawl:
21. :lucasbrawl:
22. itbrawl:
23. :ganonbrawl:
24. :ivysaurbrawl:
25. :dkbrawl:
26. :gwbrawl:
27. :zssbrawl:
28. harizardbrawl:
29. :squirtlebrawl:
30. :dededebrawl:
31. :nessbrawl:
32. :luigibrawl:

Actually, I don't think TL's that high, but I'm too lazy to change it.

 

[BTmoney]

Can you justify bowser being 7th?

 

[Translucent]

Man, I hate when Squirtle gets put that low.

 

[BTmoney]

Yeah, just playing against squirtle I can't say he's that bad. He's at least good.

 

[Turazrok]

I play D3 get @ me tire wohres

No but for real is he THAT bad?

We discussed earlier but I am I just missing how ****ed he is in most MU's?

:C

 

[bubbaking]

You have a good grab game, but what if no one wants to approach you?

Likewise, you have a good grab game, but what if someone has really good shield pressure and combos?

Furthermore, did I say you have a good grab game, but what if I knock you off and stick my leg out when you upB?

Just a couple problems.....among many. Oh, and did I mention that you have a good grab game?