Tier List Speculation

[bubbaking]

Also, Sheik and Mario beat Bowser way better than spacies, Imo.

I'll agree that sheik beats boozer better than spacees. That mu is like 70:30. I hate typin on fones. Also boozer vs jiggs is a LOT closer this time around. IMO that mu went from 10:90 to 40:60.

 

[Limeee]

i think boozer beats jiggs

the reward for getting a hit on jiggs is way too much for the matchup to be in jigg's flavour

 

[DMG]

I dunno about Jiggs, but here are characters I'd list as "easy mode" vs Bowser:

Mario
Marth
Sheik
Falcon
Ganon

A step under that, I'd have DK Link Ike as winning but not super dominating over Bowser. Possibly Wario too, Lucario also probably has the edge. Spacies are debatable, but those are non spacie characters that come to mind for beating Bowser.


The main reason is because Bowser gets manhandled by grabs. Grabbing Bowser bypasses armor and tends to place him in a juggle or TC scenario. Actual attack wise, very few characters give Bowser trouble due to the ability to CC + Upb + Super armor + Range. The characters who really screw over Bowser tend to have the nastiest grab games, with Marth and Sheik in particular being very lame because they also have the ground game mobility/baiting factor for Bowser to deal with. Attack wise, stuff that gives Bowser trouble are easy launches/hard to CC moves, or once Bowser is off the ground moves that are really quick can be hard to deal with. If he gets scooped by Mario Sheik Fox etc, it's gonna hurt lol.

 

[Vashimus]

Does Link's d-throw chain grab work on Bowser? Probably does, so you can add him to be list.

 

[DMG]

2.1 Link molested him with grab. I dunno what changed, but I've heard that Link doesn't grab people out of the air as well in 2.5.

 

[bubbaking]

Woooahhh, you might wanna take Mario off that list. On LI, one of our top players (tagged Soup) played a lot of P:M Mario against another one of our top player's, Ben Grimm's, Bowser, and Ben actually managed to turn Soup off of the character because of how ridiculous it was in some cases. Yes, if Mario lands a grab, to quote so many characters ever, "it's gonna HURT!" but Mario's grab range isn't the greatest and neither is his mobility. Most (all) of his moves can be out-prioritized, and forget about off-stage. Bowser has the most fun with Mario's recovery since it's a vertical, weak multi-hit recovery. Bowser can literally use all three of his major edgeguarding strats to edgeguard Mario:

1. Bowser Bomb through SJP > edgehog
2. CA dtilt through SJP
3. Fortress armor through SJP > edgehog

Mario's killing power isn't even that great against someone like Bowser. IMO, Mario's restricted to a lot of fireball camping (which Bowser can easily crawl through, I believe). Mario can't directly challenge Bowser in anything and once he's offstage, he's dead.

 

[iLink]

Link can only grab people out of the air if they are next to his hand. The actual hook end of the grab can't grab opponent's out of the air. I haven't really tested to see how easy it is to do the CG on bowser in 2.5

 

[Hylian]

Bowser is hard to CG because of the throw animation and him mashing up-b during the chaingrab.

 

[bubbaking]

@iLink: That's how it is in Melee too.

Lucario definitely has a solid winning edge over Bowser. He nullifies a lot of Bowser's CC strengths and strategies with his OHCs and he combos him really hard. Lucario's mobility is enough to outclass Bowser and he's pretty good at edgeguarding him too. If he lands the offstage sideB grab, it's game over because of how badly Bowser gets messed up by meteors. Bowser's edgeguarding advantage is also weakened somewhat by super cancels.

I'd say Link has a really strong advantage against Bowser because of how well he can wall/zone him out with projectiles, even considering his 2.5 'rang "nerf". Also, even if a grab doesn't equal a CG, it equals a juggle, which Link does really well against a char like Bowser. Projectiles, grab game, and juggles put that MU pretty strongly in Link's favor, imo.

 

[Turazrok]

Is d3 really that bad O_O

Would've searched thread for previous discussion but search broke qq

 

[DMG]

I dunno what to think of D3, because no one seems interested in him. Probably not a single D3 at Apex, least not in the videos Im watching.

 

[Jandlebars]

Is d3 really that bad O_O

Would've searched thread for previous discussion but search broke qq

I've heard people say that it's mostly because people don't pay much attention to him (not sure if any notable players use him all that often, and if they do, I don't know who they are >.>). I've been using him a good deal myself, and while I know I'm definitely not awesome at Smash in any way, he seems to have enough spacing tools to maybe keep him at least at Mid-ish Tier. But given how large he is, he's not too hard at all to wrap up in a combo, and if he can't keep people away from his tubby exterior, then they're guaranteed more than a couple of hits.

Waddle Dees and Doos can probably soften some pressure against him, and given that he can angle how he throws them in 2.5, it gives him more options to defend.

But, ultimately, I don't quite know either way.

 

[OkamiBW]

Fly Amanita's probably the best D3 player.

 

[bubbaking]

Some people think he's average, a few, like Kink and 9k, think he's really good, and most seem to think he's kinda garbage compared to most of the cast.

 

[Turazrok]

Hm.

IDK he's fun

maybe 2 fat. Lil bit slow

WD sucks.

Ok yeee. I could see it.

 

[Jandlebars]

Fly Amanita's probably the best D3 player.

Oh yeah, can't forget Fly. :x

Some people think he's average, a few, like Kink and 9k, think he's really good, and most seem to think he's kinda garbage compared to most of the cast.

I suppose it might have to do with him seemingly having less potential for meta-game development than a lot of other Brawl newcomers. He has his Waddle-Dashing, which is, quite honestly, a pretty interesting way to move about the field, and I'm certain he can direct where he throws them while doing so.
Other than that, though, not a lot, at least at first glance.

 

[OkamiBW]

He's got a really good RAR (reverse aerial rush).

 

[DMG]

Fly Amanita's probably the best D3 player.

Fly is literally like the only person I can think of, and that most people think of, when you talk about PM D3. Sorry to anyone else who mains him, no disrespect, but I think I know more Ness players than D3 players lol.

Like, nobody ****in plays him.

 

[bubbaking]

To be fair, a lot of chars have a really good RAR because so many chars' best aerial is arguably their bair. One major weakness of DDD's that many don't consider is his recovery. His aerial mobility sucks and one can often force him to upB and then stuff that with a long-lasting move.

 

[DMG]

No super armor on his Upb is asking to get the spike treatment, hard.

 

[Jolteon]

Mario:Bowser is definitely 100:0, look at how many games Mario has beaten him in.

 

[Tero.]

D3 is like 50/50
50% is really good (like range on his Ftilt, his gimping game, very good Grab game), but on the other hand he's easy to Combo and kinda slow.
What he misses is a fast kill move since his utilt and DSmash don't kill as fast as they did in Brawl and his Fsmash/Usmash are kinda slow.
Also his up B is really easy to edgeguard.

He should get his Dthrow chain back :D

 

[Tero.]

D3 is like 50/50
50% is really good (like range on his Ftilt, his gimping game, very good Grab game), but on the other hand he's easy to Combo and kinda slow.
What he misses is a fast kill move since his utilt and DSmash don't kill as fast as they did in Brawl and his Fsmash/Usmash are kinda slow.
Also his up B is really easy to edgeguard.

He should get his Dthrow chain back :D

 

[bubbaking]

A really funny thing is that DDD's dthrow is a Marth-caliber TC set-up tool, but he isn't fast enough to fully capitalize on it against a lot of characters. I guess if you're extremely lucky with your Gordo pulls, then you could get random kills on the chars with fast, long techrolls, but other than that, he's out of luck.

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

DDD is a very good char in PM

Specially in 2.5, some of the buffs he got are so good.

 

[DMG]

Go show it then! Go play him, no one plays D3. I just hear edge guarding and grab range and blah blah blah, and then I see him as big combo food for people lol.

This character doesn't have that kind of Lucas "he's got **** goin on" kind of feel

 

[Chaos_Blasta]

I don't actually play him or am interested in doing so, just seen/played with other DDD mains. I simply feel he's a very solid character overall.

 

[bubbaking]

In other words, he's deserving of his Mid Tier placing.

 

[`dazrin]

Off the top of my head, some decent DDD players other than fly would include: BigD, Carroll, G-Reg.. yeah. Lol

 

[bubbaking]

Are you sure about BigD? He's a big vBrawl DDD player.

 

[Turazrok]

Go show it then! Go play him, no one plays D3. I just hear edge guarding and grab range and blah blah blah, and then I see him as big combo food for people lol.

This character doesn't have that kind of Lucas "he's got **** goin on" kind of feel

Yo dog I went straight wind warrior D3 at P:M tourney sunday. Just wait

The jet hammer was strong.

Also **** sheik/ivysaur.

 

[Kink-Link5]

DeDeDe can now waddle toss upward, then DJ into it and waddle dash in the middle of the air lol.

 

[Vixen]

After my own extensive testing, I feel Mario is far more limited than Pit in terms of what he can do out of any situation, and every character between them.

Mario for 10th/11th place, Pit for somewhere around 6th-8th place.

 

[DMG]

Impossible Mario has to be top 5 because BUFFS OMG BUFFS HE'S SO GOOD

 

[TheReflexWonder]

But Cape is incredibly good now. A premier poking tool when mixed in with the rest of his options, IMO.

 

[GunBlaze]

I actually am worried about the cape. It's just... too good.

 

[KayB]

Woooahhh, you might wanna take Mario off that list. On LI, one of our top players (tagged Soup) played a lot of P:M Mario against another one of our top player's, Ben Grimm's, Bowser, and Ben actually managed to turn Soup off of the character because of how ridiculous it was in some cases. Yes, if Mario lands a grab, to quote so many characters ever, "it's gonna HURT!" but Mario's grab range isn't the greatest and neither is his mobility. Most (all) of his moves can be out-prioritized, and forget about off-stage. Bowser has the most fun with Mario's recovery since it's a vertical, weak multi-hit recovery. Bowser can literally use all three of his major edgeguarding strats to edgeguard Mario:

1. Bowser Bomb through SJP > edgehog
2. CA dtilt through SJP
3. Fortress armor through SJP > edgehog

Mario's killing power isn't even that great against someone like Bowser. IMO, Mario's restricted to a lot of fireball camping (which Bowser can easily crawl through, I believe). Mario can't directly challenge Bowser in anything and once he's offstage, he's dead.

It is possible to do a chain grab from 0 to near death against Boozer with Mario's d-throw. I guess that's worth mentioning? I definitely don't think it's Mario's favor, but I'm pretty sure it's not really in Boozer's favor either. I'd be convinced to say that the MU is 50-50, maybe 55-45 in favor of Boozer.

EDIT: And I just remembered the cape. Probably still 50-50 though. Mario can cape Boozer's Whriling Fortress really well, right?

And someone here said that Puff vs Boozer is more in favor of Jiggs. If this is right, then I have no idea about the current metagame.

 

[GMaster171]

The Cape: Causing t-stances, instant deaths, shield turn-around and rage inducing gimps since... 2.1?

But honestly, I can't see Mario being any lower than a place in A tier (top of B at the least imo). He just has too many tools that work on too much of the cast.

@KayB
Bowser vs Jiggs is more even cause of the armor on some of his moves, as well as stage picks. If puff gets taken to Yoshi Story, Wario Ware or Metal cavern, where Bowser can escape to the edge any time he wants, and his fair covers almost half the entire stage, Puff gets cornered and slapped. If puff has room to escape and bait, Puff wins rather easily iirc.

 

[Scythe]

I've played mario quite a bit in PM since he's my secondary in melee and feel that even though he a lot of crazy buffs that make a him a viable character he's still not top 5 worthy but maybe top 10, I'm not sure. His main weaknesses in melee were recovery and getting in and it's still quite hard to get in with him.
My main practice in PM is against prolly the top player right now in Chicago who plays Bowser and that matchup is likely 55:45 Bowser's favor. It's just really really hard to get in. However mario gets ridiculous dthrow comboes that go upward 60% and at around 80% a stray upair comboes easily into a fair kill. Also if Bowser is ever off stage he can't do anything about cape, it completely destroys him.

 

[GunBlaze]

the cape: Causing t-stances, instant deaths, shield turn-around and rage inducing gimps since... 2.1?

this. So. Much.