Tier List Speculation

[JCaesar]

Who do you play with? I don't recognize the name.

 

[bubbaking]

ROB is honestly today's Samus. No one knows how to play against him except for the few who actually use him (and their friends ). All those people I ever beat, I know what they had do to win. Regardless, I don't think I've ever put ROB in Low Tier on my list.

Maybe you guys should only seperate the tierlist into 3 parts instead of 5.

That's up to whoever's posting his list up. My list has 4 sections to it, which I think are perfect.

 

[Oracle]

I'm the guy who does testing with sethlon and stuff. Most of the videos of me just have my name (rob)

 

[JCaesar]

Oh you're Rob! Ok, I stand corrected, I did watch a couple of your matches. I'm curious what you think I copied from your playstyle though. IIRC you use dair a lot, and I use it more than I used to, but that's mostly because it's no longer a bad move in 2.5. I can't think of anything else about your playstyle that really stuck out to me.

 

[Scythe]

ROB seems like he's mid tier but honestly if i were to make a tier list 80% of the cast would be mid tier

 

[Astraea31]

Unusable / No winnable MUs





The next ****** who places DDD in lower tiers will get their butt slapped by yours truly

I only agree with TL. ZSS beat Hungrybox at the latest Florida PM tourny, and Leffen got pretty far with her in the Apex Tourny.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Zelda, Jigglypuff, Peach, and DeDeDe are all very winnable matchups for Toon Link.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Zelda, Jigglypuff, Peach, and DeDeDe are all very winnable matchups for Toon Link.

We'll take them where we can get them! :/

 

[outofphase]

my list. admittedly based on first impressions. no specific order within tiers

top tier:

fox
falco
marth
mario
sheik
diddy
pit

high tier:

wolf
jiggs
ike
sonic
lucario
falcon
zss

mid tier:

peach
wario
lucas
squirtle
pikachu
dedede
snake
luigi
ivysaur

low tier:

ness
link
toon link
donkey kong
charizard
zelda
bowser

bottom tier:

gnw
rob
ganondorf


honestly havent played much of several characters, just my first thoughts.

 

[OkamiBW]

JCaesar - I feel like ROB is a one trick pony with Forward-B stuff. You just make him a one trick pony of doom. Then again, Puff is kind of like that, so maybe that's all ROB needs, but perhaps there's something I'm overseeing.

 

[bubbaking]

That's all Jiggs is but Jiggs can stay safe for heaven knows how long and then she blows you up when the trap card activates.

Jiggs also gets all her jumps back from grabbing the ledge... <___<

 

[Archangel]

based on my impressions to this point and some other additional info.

No particular order in each given tier.

S tier:







S- tier






A tier






A- tier






B tier







c tier





Z tier

 

[Astraea31]

Zelda, Jigglypuff, Peach, and DeDeDe are all very winnable matchups for Toon Link.

Toon Link doesn't nearly have as much of an advantage as Young Link had in Melee. His Up Air isn't even close to having as much KB as YL, and his down air (best killing move against jiggs) sends her down now. He can still projectile camp, but I think that's all he really has against her.

 

[Kink-Link5]

JCaesar - I feel like ROB is a one trick pony with Forward-B stuff. You just make him a one trick pony of doom. Then again, Puff is kind of like that, so maybe that's all ROB needs, but perhaps there's something I'm overseeing.

Character merit shouldn't be dictated by the variety within their moveset. That kind of design DOES make for very dynamic characters like Sheik, but it isn't necessary in order for a character to have what they need to secure hits.

Toon Link doesn't nearly have as much of an advantage as Young Link had in Melee. His Up Air isn't even close to having as much KB as YL, and his down air (best killing move against jiggs) sends her down now. He can still projectile camp, but I think that's all he really has against her.

Toon Link's dair still sends upward.

 

[bubbaking]

Spacees say otherwise. That shine is one of the most flexible moves known to man and the variety within their moveset is what lets them do anything else pretty superbly.

I mean, you aren't wrong, but variety while having all the advantages afforded by your single extremely good moves definitely helps.

 

[OkamiBW]

based on my impressions to this point and some other additional info.

No particular order in each given tier.

S tier:







S- tier






A tier






A- tier






B tier







c tier





Z tier

You're missing Sheik and Zelda. When you put the two of them in, I'll update your tier list with it. Without each of them, it throws off the averages. Please split Shielda. Thanks.

Edit: Oh right, I can't really add anything in unless you give a specific order anyways.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The thing about R.O.B. is that he has excellent reach in the neutral game. People have to fear a sudden F-Air, a dangerous N-Air, annoying tilts, a stupid D-Smash, and Gyro shenanigans. He covers space well enough to make his tools work pretty well, even in a Melee environment, because of the added speed, combo potential, and damage.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Zelda/Sheik without split makes more sense than doing it with a split. Even if you only use literally one of them the whole match, you still have access to the rest of the character and are using the combination in some fashion.

I'm probably going to put Zelda/Sheik and then just Zelda by herself next tier list I post.

 

[bubbaking]

The thing about R.O.B. is that he has excellent reach in the neutral game. People have to fear a sudden F-Air, a dangerous N-Air, annoying tilts, a stupid D-Smash, and Gyro shenanigans. He covers space well enough to make his tools work pretty well, even in a Melee environment, because of the added speed, combo potential, and damage.

Sounds a lot like Samus and then some!

But also like Samus, his shield kinda gets pooped on (well, that's worse than Aran, but w/e), he's combo'd to heck and back, and his kill power can be quite lacking at times. Then there's that occasional recovery problem.....

 

[Oracle]

Mostly just your recent use of more boost aerials, which I've been doing for months. Its confusing when you make posts about boost moves being unsafe on block then go on to spam them in your matches

 

[bubbaking]

Who doesn't use a lot of boost aerials though?

 

[OkamiBW]

Zelda/Sheik without split makes more sense than doing it with a split. Even if you only use literally one of them the whole match, you still have access to the rest of the character and are using the combination in some fashion.

I'm probably going to put Zelda/Sheik and then just Zelda by herself next tier list I post.

Then put Shielda, Sheik, and Zelda. Thanks.

 

[JCaesar]

Mostly just your recent use of more boost aerials, which I've been doing for months. Its confusing when you make posts about boost moves being unsafe on block then go on to spam them in your matches

That's funny, I'm actually trying to phase boost aerials out of my approach game because they get me punished far more often than gyro approaches and tilt zoning. I still do them because it's just a habit I've built from boost aerial being my go-to approach since before Demo 2 even came out, but boost aerials are far better for punishing and following up than approaching, because, as you said, even perfect, well-spaced boost aerials are unsafe on shield against most characters.

 

[Scythe]

Zelda/Sheik without split makes more sense than doing it with a split. Even if you only use literally one of them the whole match, you still have access to the rest of the character and are using the combination in some fashion.

I'm probably going to put Zelda/Sheik and then just Zelda by herself next tier list I post.

the transformation is so much longer in this game that they should be separated.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

the transformation is so much longer in this game that they should be separated.

I don't see why that matters. You can still switch in almost every situation you would switch in Melee (though you would never really switch in Melee!)--On KOs and against long-lasting recoveries. Also, the vulnerability period after transformation is very short.

 

[bubbaking]

You mean nonexistent. I've been told that Sheilda can move on frame 1 after transforming. Has this changed in 2.5?

 

[Hylian]

I'm gonna try this just for fun:


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Characters I don't have any experience against:


Note: I made this list in like 10 minutes with minimal thought lol.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

People really love Peach in this, huh?

 

[bubbaking]

Holy cow, I know Lucario is worse, but THAT much worse? O__O

And I don't really get the Peach love either. It doesn't really make sense seeing as how she's mostly the same as Melee, she wasn't even close to Top Tier in Melee (Armada's just an outstandingly good player people, stop it!), and vBrawl shield mechanics make her float pressure even less outstanding.

Edit: Before people come here saying that Peach is Top Tier in Melee, let me inform all of you that she loses to Fox, Falco, Jiggs, Sheik, Marth, and Falcon. How the heck are you going to tell me she's Top Tier when she loses to all of Top/High, including the guy below him?

 

[BJN39]

I'm gonna try this just for fun:


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Characters I don't have any experience against:


Note: I made this list in like 10 minutes with minimal thought lol.

*Looks*

28.




...




...




...Your last note made me reconsider saying more. lol

 

[DMG]

Not gonna lie, Armada vs Spacies is like a 100-0 MU in Armada favor lol

 

[bubbaking]

Armada vs Salem

COMING SOON IN SMASH 4!!!

 

[Hylian]

Holy cow, I know Lucario is worse, but THAT much worse? O__O

And I don't really get the Peach love either. It doesn't really make sense seeing as how she's mostly the same as Melee, she wasn't even close to Top Tier in Melee (Armada's just an outstandingly good player people, stop it!), and vBrawl shield mechanics make her float pressure even less outstanding.

Edit: Before people come here saying that Peach is Top Tier in Melee, let me inform all of you that she loses to Fox, Falco, Jiggs, Sheik, Marth, and Falcon. How the heck are you going to tell me she's Top Tier when she loses to all of Top/High, including the guy below him?

I might be biased because I play against two great peaches lol. I also think peach beats falco, goes even with fox/marth/falcon/shiek and loses to jiggs in melee so I don't agree with you >_>.

People really love Peach in this, huh?

Yep .

Also to BJN I just feel like zelda doesn't have the speed to keep up with most of the cast >_>.

 

[9Kplus1]

I'm gonna try this just for fun:

26.

Ugh I hate you

 

[MVP]

I think CF should be higher on the list. I think he's better than Pit and Diddy

 

[bubbaking]

I might be biased because I play against two great peaches lol. I also think peach beats falco, goes even with fox/marth/falcon/shiek and loses to jiggs in melee so I don't agree with you >_>.

Well I won't discredit your opinion, but I'll have you know that I have two credible sources on this one: the latest Melee MU chart (which is a little outdated, but so is Melee ), and Armada himself. The man can be quoted very recently as claiming that Peach loses (badly in some cases) to all of those chars I stated. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[OkamiBW]

Holy cow, I know Lucario is worse, but THAT much worse? O__O

And I don't really get the Peach love either. It doesn't really make sense seeing as how she's mostly the same as Melee, she wasn't even close to Top Tier in Melee (Armada's just an outstandingly good player people, stop it!), and vBrawl shield mechanics make her float pressure even less outstanding.

Edit: Before people come here saying that Peach is Top Tier in Melee, let me inform all of you that she loses to Fox, Falco, Jiggs, Sheik, Marth, and Falcon. How the heck are you going to tell me she's Top Tier when she loses to all of Top/High, including the guy below him?

Peach does great against Sheik. I'm not sure what you mean. She went even if not had a winning match up against Sheik in Melee with all her combos and easy edgeguards against Sheik's stupidly bad Up-B recovery that puts you into a kajillion lag frames that Peach can punish hardcore with D-Smash or float cancel N-air or whatever the heck she wants. Maybe we just don't have enough good Sheik players to beat Armada?

I'm also not so sure about Fox and Falco either especially nowadays. Who cares if Armada is the top of the metagame? That's what we should be looking at. Besides, everyone and their mothers plays Metaknight Fox/Falco, so we should have plenty of good players to compete with Armada.

 

[bubbaking]

Peach does great against Sheik. I'm not sure what you mean. She went even if not had a winning match up against Sheik in Melee with all her combos and easy edgeguards against Sheik's stupidly bad Up-B recovery that puts you into a kajillion lag frames that Peach can punish hardcore with D-Smash or float cancel N-air or whatever the heck she wants. Maybe we just don't have enough good Sheik players to beat Armada?

I'm also not so sure about Fox and Falco either especially nowadays. Who cares if Armada is the top of the metagame? That's what we should be looking at. Besides, everyone and their mothers plays Metaknight Fox/Falco, so we should have plenty of good players to compete with Armada.

Pretty much every Peach on the Peach boards thinks Sheikeach is in Sheik's favor, but Armada doesn't think it's that bad, just a slight disadvantage. The discussion came up when Ben Grimm said that Sheik isn't that bad for Peach and KK replied that it's terrible for Peach. Everyone agreed with him and then Armada came in and said it's in Sheik's advantage, but it's one of Peach's better Top Tier MUs.

Sheik doesn't actually have to fight fair engage Peach, tbh. She can just camp and throw needles. If Peach comes in, run away and camp some more. It stuffs turnip pulls and tacks on damage. Sheik can stuff out Peach's float if she's pre-emptive with ftilt or fair, and on the ground, she just has to make sure she grabs her a lot up close instead of going for CC-able things at low %'s. Grab combos wreck Peach. As you said, once Sheik's knocked offstage, it's a pretty guaranteed kill. Any competent Peach should easily be able to convert that into a stock, but the offstage game isn't what makes the MU; it's the onstage game.

 

[OkamiBW]

Unfortunately for Sheik, however, her grab combos were turned from 100% to a 50-50 mix-up.

 

[bubbaking]

Ah yes, that's true, and that mix-up isn't even that reliable.....