Tier List Speculation

[bubbaking]

2.1 and 2.5 Pit are so different that one can't reasonably use data from one's performance to correlate the tier list position of the other. I'm also not of the opinion that 2.5 Pit is "better" and I've already explained my reasoning on why. Armada winning a tourney with him IS evidence, but it's not exactly wholesome evidence, tbh. He's the only player doing this, which makes him somewhat of an outlier. He also wins Melee nationals with Peach who is solidly NOT Top Tier (losing MUs to everyone in Top and High Tier people, come on ). What if we all said Pikachu is super Top Tier in vBrawl because ESAM is amazing and he wins tournaments? Along those same lines, we might as well say that DK is Top Tier because Eli wins nearly every tournament he goes to with him.

 

[Archangel]

I think you are being counter intuitive with so many of your arguments bubba. Pit lost a 2nd glide yeah...but his Up-b, Usmash, Fsmash, Bair, Dair..they are all better and easier to set up...I'm telling you now but you'll eventually see(assuming they don't change him soon).

 

[Hashtag]

They nerfed Pit's Arrows?

Also, Lucario used to be really good in 2.1. Now I think he's decent, don't think he's top 8, tho possibly top 15.

 

[bubbaking]

I think you are being counter intuitive with so many of your arguments bubba. Pit lost a 2nd glide yeah...but his Up-b, Usmash, Fsmash, Bair, Dair..they are all better and easier to set up...I'm telling you now but you'll eventually see(assuming they don't change him soon).

I'm not being counter-intuitive at all. I've already acknowledge that Pit received both nerfs AND buffs, and as such, I believe he's around the same level as he was before. That loss of a 2nd glide is a lot more important than you're giving it credit for. That alone has eliminated so many follow-ups he used to have. As I said before, he traded extended combos and gimping potential for more kill power and improved aerials.

 

[Hashtag]

He can still chase you off stage, just not as far as he used to. So he was made to be more well rounded rather that just having to mostly gimp.

I think he'll be just fine with his changes, just have to slightly change edge guard tactics.

Edit: I would also like to see this potential for squirtle people are talking about. I just find him as an annoying character.

- Kaiten

 

[bubbaking]

Yes, I also think he'll be just fine. If you look at my latest tier list, I have him in High Tier. I just don't think he's Top Tier like some people are saying.

Pit can chase you offstage but in a MUCH more restricted manner than he could in 2.1. In 2.1, he could do something like dthrow > fair > fair > glide offstage > fair KO > glide back. Now, Pit can only do that if he glides straight from the ground. Needless to say, the combo will be dropped.

I honestly didn't mind a character that was based largely on gimping early, 'cause he had all the tools to do that really well. That and his zoning/camping prowess made him a good character in 2.1. I'm not saying he's not good in 2.5, but I highly doubt that he's better.

 

[Archangel]

I'm not being counter-intuitive at all. I've already acknowledge that Pit received both nerfs AND buffs, and as such, I believe he's around the same level as he was before. That loss of a 2nd glide is a lot more important than you're giving it credit for. That alone has eliminated so many follow-ups he used to have. As I said before, he traded extended combos and gimping potential for more kill power and improved aerials.

incorrect. He recieved far more buffs than he got nerfs. His recovery if used correctly is about the same. Considering you don't go into special fall out of glide, get a glide from grabing the ledge again. Fun factyou can glide invisibly from the ledge backwards and do any aerial out of while maintaining invincibility frames)....not to mention his gimp ability is actually buffed...learn to use the spike.

Yes, I also think he'll be just fine. If you look at my latest tier list, I have him in High Tier. I just don't think he's Top Tier like some people are saying.

Pit can chase you offstage but in a MUCH more restricted manner than he could in 2.1. In 2.1, he could do something like dthrow > fair > fair > glide offstage > fair KO > glide back. Now, Pit can only do that if he glides straight from the ground. Needless to say, the combo will be dropped.

I honestly didn't mind a character that was based largely on gimping early, 'cause he had all the tools to do that really well. That and his zoning/camping prowess made him a good character in 2.1. I'm not saying he's not good in 2.5, but I highly doubt that he's better.

I can tell by the way you speak you don't know that much about pit...even 2.1 pit. Do you play the character at all or do you just look at the image gif in hitbox/frame data and take wild guesses about him? I don't mean that in an offensive way I just have to ask...

 

[BRLNK88]

Toon Link should be at least mid-tier at this point.

 

[bubbaking]

Pit was one of my mains in 2.1. I'm probably going to drop him in 2.5 because he's too different, but I've still tried him several times. I didn't make a single wild guess in my post at all. What I've said has been taken exactly from what I've done with him and from what I've seen other good Pit users do with him.

In fact, I'm starting to wonder how much Pit you played in 2.1 before 2.5 came out, because it is very clear that Pit's recovery is nowhere near as good as it was in 2.1. It's enough to get by, yes, but it's simply not as good. If used correctly, Pit's recovery was nearly impossible to stop because of two glides to be used for glide jumps. The glide itself isn't as important as the glide jump it can be used for and being able to glide again after glide jumping once was crucial. Those two glides made it nigh impossible to properly intercept Pit in the air. When GuruKid still mained Pit, playing him a good bit showed me this and I started doing it myself. Pit's glidejumps were one of his greatest tools and having two glides made it extremely good.

Again, I think you are downplaying the importance of losing a glide, or perhaps we just put more weight into different things...

Edit: Two glides also buffed his vertical recovery a bit, but not by too much, admittedly.

 

[Archangel]

Pit was one of my mains in 2.1. I'm probably going to drop him in 2.5 because he's too different, but I've still tried him several times. I didn't make a single wild guess in my post at all. What I've said has been taken exactly from what I've done with him and from what I've seen other good Pit users do with him.

In fact, I'm starting to wonder how much Pit you played in 2.1 before 2.5 came out, because it is very clear that Pit's recovery is nowhere near as good as it was in 2.1. It's enough to get by, yes, but it's simply not as good. If used correctly, Pit's recovery was nearly impossible to stop because of two glides to be used for glide jumps. The glide itself isn't as important as the glide jump it can be used for and being able to glide again after glide jumping once was crucial. Those two glides made it nigh impossible to properly intercept Pit in the air. When GuruKid still mained Pit, playing him a good bit showed me this and I started doing it myself. Pit's glidejumps were one of his greatest tools and having two glides made it extremely good.

Again, I think you are downplaying the importance of losing a glide, or perhaps we just put more weight into different things...

Edit: Two glides also buffed his vertical recovery a bit, but not by too much, admittedly.

I think our mentalities are completely different from the start. If you consider GuruKid the ultimate form of Pit then, that has to be true. Nothing against him. With Pit's Power weaknesses your best chance of winning at times was to run and shoot until someone was at 200% or the time ran out. I tried my best to play an intelligent but aggressive pit. A character that's only good for time outs and a few good matches against light characters or characters with bad recovery can do well...Pit just felt too much like young link with wings.


His horizontal recovery is about the same and the slight boost you get from his 2nd glide would be give you like...a character length of height more...maybe...idk. His up-b gets slightly more height now. so It really isn't that much of a change. the main issue is the off stage combos which you can do if you set them up correctly. Try following up with an arrow while you land on the ground or a platform. There is no such thing as not having a follow-up if you now how to aim. If someone is too far to reach. Shoot them...it's kind of simple really.

I personally, think that you just enjoyed flying too much. 2.1 Pit was headed down the brawl way...considering you lose both glides if you are hit out of the first one. and you don't get it back from the ledge so...Idk...but you should try to explore the more...offensive side of pit. Pit was a fly waiting to be swatted most of the time in 2.1. For example...Pit vs Bowser 2.1 Watch gurukid vs Cmart for a summary of the mu. Pit has EVERYTHING in his court except kill power....in 2 extremely campy games Bowsers ability to exist offensively is enough to pull out to victory where as in 2.5 You can outplayer bowser from a distance but unlike 2.1 you can kill him when he gets to you.

like.....It's almost impossible for me to understand how you can't see the value of pit's kill potential...he's got VERY GOOD kill power...do I have to show you?

 

[Kink-Link5]

No that's me that doesn't care about kill potential and just cares about the neutral game, spam_arrows. Pit's like 2 spots lower than in 2.1 to me, but he's still maaaad good. Free setups and extremely efficient damage output.

 

[bubbaking]

Didn't read the whole thing (watching Apex right now) but I don't know how you got the impression that I regard GuruKid as the "ultimate form of Pit." All I said was that he opened my eyes to a specific technique of Pit's and that I found it to be really good after I started using it.

 

[Archangel]

Well...I'll not get into it much in this thread....it's gone too far already. I'll just say....you two are sleeping. Especially you Kink-link. You thought he was better than he was in 2.1 Now you think he's worse than he is in 2.5....why do you do this?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Well...I'll not get into it much in this thread....it's gone too far already. I'll just say....you two are sleeping. Especially you Kink-link. You thought he was better than he was in 2.1 Now you think he's worse than he is in 2.5....why do you do this?

When did I place him better than in 2.1? 2 Spots worse and going from Fox tier to almost Fox tier isn't a devastating loss.

Pit's amazing foo.

 

[Archangel]

When did I place him better than in 2.1? 2 Spots worse and going from Fox tier to almost Fox tier isn't a devastating loss.

Pit's amazing foo.

My point is your working in opposite land dude. He should be almost fox tier in 2.1 and fox tier/possibly above fox tier in 2.5.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'm still confused about the "You thought he was better than he was in 2.1 Now you think he's worse than he is in 2.5" part.

 

[Archangel]

It's exactly the way it sounds..

 

[Kink-Link5]

But it's a lie.

 

[Archangel]

the only thing better about Pit in 2.1 was his glide...though it was somewhat buggy and you went into special fall out of it...in terms of recovery it is better.

Now...2.5 Pit is better in any other way and his recovery is still among the best in the game.

Honestly, I would consider 2.5 pit with 2 glides a bit like I would consider Falco with Fox's up-B....In otherword too much for an already very good character.

 

[Deus]

What does that bolded portion mean?



Actually, I believe Lucas' OU doesn't really power up his smashes that much, which has caused a bit of controversy among his users. The time spent charging the OU might not be worth the small increase in power unless it's being done between the opponent's stocks.

What I meant was he actually has a good grab assuming you jump cancel his running grab to make it his standing one, was worded awkard.
I guess I assumed people on used his power up in between stocks, I personally wouldn't risk it unless it maybe upped their hitbox bigger or massive KB, and at least it's better than sheiks chain

I'm actually going to be getting back into playing with some old friends that are still active melee players soon (best players in oregon at least) so I'm sure I'll see more and more of his downfalls soon enough.

 

[Kink-Link5]

When did I ever say he was better in 2.5 than he was in 2.1?

"You thought he was better than he was in 2.1 Now you think he's worse than he is in 2.5"

YOU are the one that thinks he's better than he was in 2.1.

I'm so ****ing confused. You're accusing me of something YOU said.

 

[Archangel]

When did I ever say he was better in 2.5 than he was in 2.1?

"You thought he was better than he was in 2.1 Now you think he's worse than he is in 2.5"

YOU are the one that thinks he's worse than he is in 2.5.

I'm so ****ing confused. You're accusing me of something YOU said.

my bad..I think I confused you with bubba for a second...it's 4:35am and I am actually falling asleep in my chair...lol. G'night.

 

[Deus]

OK, now I really need to try Pit more after reading this page of posts.

Edit : who is a really good Pit player that has videos?

 

[Kink-Link5]

OK, now I really need to try Pit more after reading this page of posts.

Edit : who is a really good Pit player that has videos?

Walk (Plays with Kizzu), Armada.

 

[Deus]

Walk (Plays with Kizzu), Armada.

Ty, didn't know Armada was playing P:M.

 

[Jolteon]

Yeah, Amanda's Pit is pretty good.

 

[Deus]

Yeah, Amanda's Pit is pretty good.

Uh yeah, wow, his friggin jiggs-esque fairs off the stage, throw game, and he's pretty freaking good with his arrows. Now I can definetly see Pits combo/gimp potential.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Uh yeah, wow, his friggin jiggs-esque fairs off the stage, throw game, and he's pretty freaking good with his arrows. Now I can definetly see Pits combo/gimp potential.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-MBuZkKVNI#t=178s This one is always one of my favourites.

 

[bubbaking]

That video is 2.1, though, and it shows PERFECTLY what Pit can do with two glides that he can't do now.

Deus, if you're looking for videos of Pit, make sure you're watching vidoes of P:M v2.5.

@Archangel: THIS is another perfect example of what Pit could do in the middle of a combo with two glides in 2.0/2.1 that he simply can't do now. I'm sticking with my buffed and nerfed position. Pit is about the same in excellence now as he was before.

Edit: Ftr, I've seen that above combo happen so many times that there isn't a single doubt in my mind that, with the loss of one of those glides, Pit is definitely going to lose out on many key follow-ups that could equal a stock during a combo.

 

[Deus]

That video is 2.1, though, and it shows PERFECTLY what Pit can do with two glides that he can't do now.

Deus, if you're looking for videos of Pit, make sure you're watching vidoes of P:M v2.5.

Yeah, the one I saw was labeled 2.5 but I don't think it actually was. Was Pit nerfed in 2.5?

Edit : definitely didn't know he could glide twice before hitting the ground in 2.1, but Armada was not fairing him to death with the use of glide in the vid I saw.

They still haven't compiled the changes list for 2.1 to 2.5, correct?

 

[bubbaking]

No, they haven't.

He was nerfed in some ways and buffed in others.

Nerfs: He can only glide once in the air now. To glide twice, you must glide directly from the ground first. In addition, another nerf I forgot to mention earlier is that Pit can no longer 'launch' himself forward in a last ditch recovery attempt when out of glides like he could in 2.1. Finally, his arrows are slower and less maneuverable now.

Buffs: More KB on a lot of moves, such as fsmash. Dair meteor is easier to use now. Larger sweetspot on his upB. Basically, CCing opponents are no longer a major problem for Pit and his attacks have a good deal more kill power.

 

[Deus]

http://www.twitch.tv/smashdenmark/b/335005209

Vid I watched, 2.5? Kills with a sweetspot upB so maybe it is.

EDIT: NVM I'm dumb Ike's eruption is red... 2.1

 

[GunBlaze]

Dair meteor is easier to use now.

It's a spike in 2.5(b)

 

[cmart]

]Finally, his arrows are slower and less maneuverable now.

I've said this before, but this is just false. Arrow speed and maneuverability were not changed.

 

[Hashtag]

I've said this before, but this is just false. Arrow speed and maneuverability were not changed.

Thank you for clearing up this misinformation. No one answered my question from before.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

bubba just tryin to pad his list of nerfs

 

[sodapopSquid]

I just don't get it. Is there something Melee has that Project M does not? You'd think all the melee pros would just transfer. Since it's pretty much the same game, with all the viable characters transfered. All new viable characters, better starting stages, a more vivid choice in counter picking stages, less gap between tiers, and it's a free game. Does the project M team just suck at marketing?

 

[Kink-Link5]

I just don't get it. Is there something Melee has that Project M does not? You'd think all the melee pros would just transfer. Since it's pretty much the same game, with all the viable characters transfered. All new viable characters, better starting stages, a more vivid choice in counter picking stages, less gap between tiers, and it's a free game. Does the project M team just suck at marketing?

 

[GunBlaze]

**** you, Kink

 

[Kink-Link5]

These boots were made for BOINGBOINGBOINGing.


From just a technical standpoint though, Melee still has its momentum shifts calculated earlier than PM, as well as a Sheik with something that is a threat to an opponent holding downward, among several nuances like shield pushback, grab vs attack mechanics (Brawl's trade as opposed to Melee's grabs outright win), and other reaadsahjkdsajkda.

There's small differences that go into Melee's feel. PM is at like 90% Melee at the moment, and those small changes can make a difference.