Tier List Speculation

[a vehicle]

Curious why you guys consistantly rank Pit around 10? I'm not arguing I'm just honestly asking.

I haven't even been able to play P:M against another human (well, human that was remotely good at melee at least). It's just the feel I get from playing Pit is just that he doesn't have anything too special and lacks good KO options. I also was dissapointed (unless I'm doing it wrong) about the decent amount of time it takes from his over B to when you can make an aerial come out. There could very well be some tricksies I don't know about with him though.

He's arrows are awesome and fun and overall I think he's fun to play, just didn't really stand out to me as higher tier.

The only thing i got from this comment is "i have no idea of how to play with pit"
Go watch P:M Pit videos and post results

 

[TheReflexWonder]

He's arrows are awesome and fun and overall I think he's fun to play, just didn't really stand out to me as higher tier. I mean he doesn't even say cool things like 'You're through!" or slam his sword into the ground, cross his arms and look down to the side like a bad mofo... just saying.

Fair point. We'll look into it for future releases.

Also, I wonder what kind of coolness tier list we can manage to put together.

 

[Deus]

The only thing i got from this comment is "i have no idea of how to play with pit"
Go watch P:M Pit videos and post results

fair enough, also edited the crap out of my post to include my defense of Lucas

 

[DMG]

Most people think Lucas is really good or has the potential to be good. We're just talking about his recovery in recent posts, but don't let that fool you into believing we think he's trash lol.

 

[Deus]

Most people think Lucas is really good or has the potential to be good. We're just talking about his recovery in recent posts, but don't let that fool you into believing we think he's trash lol.

definitely didn't get the feeling that people thought he was trash, just conflicted, maybe Ness has hurt them in the past .
I just think he has the kind of wham bam thank you maam move set to make your stock go poof before you know what happended, sort of like falcon, but with some more ultility and not having to rely almost entirely on mind games to start a combo, and in the right hands his downfalls wouldn't be very apparent (like isai with falcon ).

BUT obviously this is all opinion and I'm basing this on using him, watching vids of him, and just my long melee career experiences.

 

[Stunts]

I wonder what kind of coolness tier list we can manage to put together.

"Gdub all the way, Baby!"

 

[bubbaking]

Naturally someone has to be bad. So far I can think of 4 sections and 1 stand alone.

S level (about 10 people)
A(12 more)
B(10 more)
C(Game&Watch)

I personally think there should be much less chars in S Tier and more chars in both A and B Tier (I agree with your C Tier, though ). There's no way that many characters deserve to be grouped so closely with the spacees. I can think of three others at best.

 

[Deus]

"Gdub all the way, Baby!"

now I really want a coolness tier

You just can't beat Ike, d taunt is too good. Plus the *throws down sword* "You'll get no sympathy from me."

We don't mention "fight for friends" victory....

 

[Deus]

The only thing i got from this comment is "i have no idea of how to play with pit"
Go watch P:M Pit videos and post results

from just now reading the first thread in the Pit forums I found out that he did get more KO options in 2.5. I hadn't messed around with him too much since 2.1.

So... Touche, sir. I shall do more homework.

 

[bubbaking]

I don't think I have Pit in my top 10 (too lazy to look for my list), but there is still something here I take issue with:

I also was dissapointed (unless I'm doing it wrong) about the decent amount of time it takes from starting his over B to when you can make an aerial come out.

It doesn't take long at all. Whenever I'm recovering, if I need a quick burst of momentum covered by an aerial, it's all my opponent can do to keep himself from getting hit by the nair or zair. One thing you might be doing is using aerials with longer startup (fair, bair, dair) out of glide to cover yourself. Those moves are still quite fast but I don't find them to be as quick and useful as his nair and zair. Nair is very fast and zair can lead into combos.

Edit: You can also do a glidejump aerial, which preserves the glide's momentum, boosts his recovery, and still lets Pit perform an aerial quickly.

Now Part 2 : Lucas
As for moves hitting through Lucas' PKT2, that's odd because it seems like everytime a move would always clank against it... once again, playing against comps for the most part, but I play him the most. I'm pretty surprised at the lower placement of Lucas, I realize he gets combo'd and no I would not want to fight Marth on FD , but the spacies seem to manage with that downfall, granted they're a serious level above Lucas.

That's the problem. He has some serious spacee weaknesses (magnified because of changes in falling speed and weight) but doesn't have the strengths to cover them up like the spacees can. He's not as fast as Fox or as great a camper/zoner as Falco, his shine is nowhere near as good as theirs, his combos are nowhere near as reliable, and his attacks can be CC'd much more easily.

As for Lucas' PKT2, I believe the move has 'negative priority' in that the hitbox is negatively disjointed. In other words, his hurtbox pokes past the hitbox instead of the other way around. This makes it extremely easy to hit Lucas out of it. If he isn't tethering most of the time, then he's probably doing it wrong. Lucas' PKT2 also doesn't kill like Ness' does so there's much less risk to trying to intercept his.

- Surprisely good tether grab, jc grabs naturally, and a great comboing dthrow and a great combo uthrow at 0 to low and then starts becoming deadly around 100 (obviously stage/enemy variables).

What does that bolded portion mean?

- great KO power, fantastic smashes that get even better with his charge B.

Actually, I believe Lucas' OU doesn't really power up his smashes that much, which has caused a bit of controversy among his users. The time spent charging the OU might not be worth the small increase in power unless it's being done between the opponent's stocks.

 

[Stunts]

Actually, I believe Lucas' OU doesn't really power up his smashes that much, which has caused a bit of controversy among his users. The time spent charging the OU might not be worth the small increase in power unless it's being done between the opponent's stocks.

I look at it like this. Since you get freebies to charge up your OU (when you respawn, when you score a KO or when you send an opponent flying in general) I don't think it's much of a sacrifice of time. Also, OU doesn't only increase knockback by a small amount. It also increases the range, damage input and shield damage to a noticable degree. Dsmash and Usmash are particularly good. OU Dsmash can do up to %50 in one go, along with increased KB. Usmash, though doesn't really have increased KB (not from what I see), has a significant range increase along with fact that it does massive shield damage. Fsmash benefits the least imo, though I think that's because it is the least risky in general. People can think what they want, but for me, OU is more than worth it. I think the problem with most people is that they rely on it. They like to show it off like a shiny new toy :shrug:

 

[Archangel]

Fair point. We'll look into it for future releases.

Also, I wonder what kind of coolness tier list we can manage to put together.

I'm on this.

I personally think there should be much less chars in S Tier and more chars in both A and B Tier (I agree with your C Tier, though ). There's no way that many characters deserve to be grouped so closely with the spacees. I can think of three others at best.

You don't see anyone as good as fox/falco huh? Well...maybe but look at it this way. Buffed Peach has probably earned an S-tier spot.(3) Puff and Sheik(especially sheilda) are still as good so (5), Mario who was widely considered to be S-tier in 2.1 (6)Me and Adam feel Pit's soooooooo much better with power attacks now it's hard not to rate him among this group. Especially since...so far he seems to get off on at Puff, Peach, sheilda and a huge chunk of the cast.(7). Then there are the speculative S-tiers that are returning. Lucario(seems harder to use but we'll see), Sonic seems nerfed (Wizzrobe says he feels he might be just as good if not better), Ike (is nerfed but in theory can be just as successful but requires more spacing and actual skill to play..again, we'll see).

so assuming those speculative characters rise to the occasion I'd say..10...buuuuuuut if not they fall into A rank which is still top I think.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

I'll make a list after a while but only based on people I play and fight against, no one around here uses ROB for example, but I find it laughable that people are now putting Link in top tier, when he's clearly worse in 2.5, I could maybe admit it in 2.1 but definitely not now

 

[bubbaking]

You don't see anyone as good as fox/falco huh?

To be fair, I said that I can see about three other chars who could be grouped in the same tier as the spacees. My issue is with S Tier being so large, because it implies that all of the chars in it are around the same level as the spacees, which I disagree with. Being in the top 10 is different from being in the Top Tier. Likewise, being in the bottom 5 is different from being in Low Tier.

Buffed Peach has probably earned an S-tier spot.(3) Puff and Sheik(especially sheilda) are still as good so (5), Mario who was widely considered to be S-tier in 2.1 (6)Me and Adam feel Pit's soooooooo much better with power attacks now it's hard not to rate him among this group. Especially since...so far he seems to get off on at Puff, Peach, sheilda and a huge chunk of the cast.(7).

Peach was subtly nerfed going from 2.1 to 2.5, through the loss of the ability to dsmash while holding turnips. This greatly cuts down on her CQC game when holding a turnip (this screws me up all the time now when I'm holding a Gyro with ROB), and actually brings back a problem she had in Melee. It was much safer to pressure her when she had a turnip in hand because it removed many of her retaliation options, both in and out of shield. Seeing as how I never had her in Top Tier in 2.1, I see no reason to move her up into there in 2.5.

I definitely agree that Sheik belongs in Top Tier along with the spacees.

Puff is "as good" as she was before, but everyone improved and a lot of chars can fight Puff a lot better than they can the spacees (and Sheik), due to better spacing games and whatnot. A great example is Bowser, whose improvements from Melee (larger hitboxes, more power, etc) greatly improved his game against Puff to the point of making the MU close to even, it seems, but who still loses solidly to Fox, Sheik, and maybe Falco.

Mario was considered to be S Tier by many in 2.1, but the entire tier list (should have) changed in 2.5. Besides, I never had him up there. I had him in High because I didn't think he was as good as the spacees and Sheik.

I feel that Pit is more or less the same, if not worse. Don't forget that he received very major nerfs along with his buffs, such as slower, less maneuverable arrows in exchange for more kill power and much more restricted gliding in exchange for a more useful dair. The latter nerf is extremely serious. Do you know how many Pit's I've seen in 2.1 glide offstage in the middle of a combo to finish off the opponent and then glide back? That is no longer possible now. Now following up combos so deeply requires Pit strictly to glide from directly onstage, which practically removes a whole bunch of follow-ups. I shouldn't need to mention that this also greatly removes from his recovery and thus decreases his formally high survivability. Tbh, Pit is one of the chars I preferred more as they were in 2.1, and I was one of the people against the changes others wanted for him.

Then there are the speculative S-tiers that are returning. Lucario(seems harder to use but we'll see), Sonic seems nerfed (Wizzrobe says he feels he might be just as good if not better), Ike (is nerfed but in theory can be just as successful but requires more spacing and actual skill to play..again, we'll see)

I used to have Lucario tied with Fox for #1 in 2.1, but the changes he's received just do not suggest that kind of placement anymore. Yes, he received a few buffs with his nerfs but he's overall worse, in my perspective. Lucario is now forced to respect shielding opponents (unlike the spacees), and he's lost his most reliable kill set-ups, so now I find him to be like Marth, struggling to kill his opponent if he didn't manage to kill him super efficiently and early. My experiences playing with Vanguard have also suggested this to me. Yeah, he's not "as silly" now but he's also not nearly as good.

Sonic was never that good, even in 2.1. If Leelue thinks he was nerfed, then I doubt he's gotten so good that he deserves High Tier placement, let alone Top Tier. Even if he is indeed better now, I still find that he has problems dealing with hitboxes.

I also never had Ike in Top Tier in 2.1. He was good, but not that good imo. The fact that he was "nerfed" in 2.5 definitely means that he does not belong in Top Tier for me. His non-QD mobility has always been lackluster and now with the QD change, it's more so.

so assuming those speculative characters rise to the occasion I'd say..10...buuuuuuut if not they fall into A rank which is still top I think.

A is High for me, not Top. They can't be Top if we're going so far as to put them an entire tier lower unless we're going the way of vBrawl and having 8+ tiers in our tier list.

 

[Nicean]

I look at it like this. Since you get freebies to charge up your OU (when you respawn, when you score a KO or when you send an opponent flying in general) I don't think it's much of a sacrifice of time. Also, OU doesn't only increase knockback by a small amount. It also increases the range, damage input and shield damage to a noticable degree. Dsmash and Usmash are particularly good. OU Dsmash can do up to %50 in one go, along with increased KB. Usmash, though doesn't really have increased KB (not from what I see), has a significant range increase along with fact that it does massive shield damage. Fsmash benefits the least imo, though I think that's because it is the least risky in general.

Lucas's OU does not increase range; rather, it increases knockback power by a small amount and increases the damage dealt by a huge amount.
Your example with OU Dsmash is the best example, it does absolutely silly amounts of damage and has a slight knockback boost. But even halfway charging a non-OU smash produces more knockback than an uncharged OU smash.
Fsmash has a similar boost in damage, but is easy to see coming because it looks really scary and flashes a lot.

 

[Stunts]

Lucas's OU does not increase range; rather, it increases knockback power by a small amount and increases the damage dealt by a huge amount.

It also increases range for Usmash and Dsmash. The blast radius, esspecially for Usmash, increases greatly in relation to their unOU form. OU Usmash even has noticable horizontal range. I don't think the Fsmash HitBox is altered. I could be wrong by that.

regaurdless, OU is a good incompaniment to an already solid moveset. Though it is not good as a primary strategy, it still has a lot of ultility.

 

[Shadic]

...Although the claim that everyone is at or above Melee Ganon/Samus/Doc level IS bull imo.

Just curious, who in the roster do you think is lower than that?

 

[Archangel]

To be fair, I said that I can see about three other chars who could be grouped in the same tier as the spacees. My issue is with S Tier being so large, because it implies that all of the chars in it are around the same level as the spacees, which I disagree with. Being in the top 10 is different from being in the Top Tier. Likewise, being in the bottom 5 is different from being in Low Tier.

thanks for clearing that up.

Peach was subtly nerfed going from 2.1 to 2.5, through the loss of the ability to dsmash while holding turnips. This greatly cuts down on her CQC game when holding a turnip (this screws me up all the time now when I'm holding a Gyro with ROB), and actually brings back a problem she had in Melee. It was much safer to pressure her when she had a turnip in hand because it removed many of her retaliation options, both in and out of shield. Seeing as how I never had her in Top Tier in 2.1, I see no reason to move her up into there in 2.5.

I'm not just talking about Peach's buffs from melee to project M. Peach in the past 2 years is already knocking on the Top tier door in Melee. An improved version of herself is kicking down that door IMO.

I definitely agree that Sheik belongs in Top Tier along with the spacees.

Puff is "as good" as she was before, but everyone improved and a lot of chars can fight Puff a lot better than they can the spacees (and Sheik), due to better spacing games and whatnot. A great example is Bowser, whose improvements from Melee (larger hitboxes, more power, etc) greatly improved his game against Puff to the point of making the MU close to even, it seems, but who still loses solidly to Fox, Sheik, and maybe Falco.

I think FC(the biggest PM tournament so far) speaks for itself when it comes to puff's capabilities. Puff has taken top 3-5 in any tournament she's had serious rep. I do agree that alot of characters can fight puff and may even soft-hard counter her but the same can now be said for all returning top tiers. Falco vs Bowser....I don't think it's Even I think Bowser's armor really beats Falco unless you go to rumble falls and get camped out...even still...a single hit at just about and % leads to falco's death. It's ugleh....but..yeah Falco is still consider top tier and I see no reason to move him just because of that. Same goes with Puff.

Mario was considered to be S Tier by many in 2.1, but the entire tier list (should have) changed in 2.5. Besides, I never had him up there. I had him in High because I didn't think he was as good as the spacees and Sheik.

I hate to bring of FC again but...well it's the most Prominent even so far in Project M's young life....and 2 players who used Mario at least 40% of the time got 2 of the top 5 placings. Again it sometimes just comes down to representation. Alot of tournaments with 30-50 players have had 0 Mario players Mario/Doc combined with a Massive address to recovery is pretty solid I won't fight to hard on this but I would say Someone on Shroomed's level using Mario could win a national just as easy as a spacie imo.

I feel that Pit is more or less the same, if not worse. Don't forget that he received very major nerfs along with his buffs, such as slower, less maneuverable arrows in exchange for more kill power and much more restricted gliding in exchange for a more useful dair. The latter nerf is extremely serious. Do you know how many Pit's I've seen in 2.1 glide offstage in the middle of a combo to finish off the opponent and then glide back? That is no longer possible now. Now following up combos so deeply requires Pit strictly to glide from directly onstage, which practically removes a whole bunch of follow-ups. I shouldn't need to mention that this also greatly removes from his recovery and thus decreases his formally high survivability. Tbh, Pit is one of the chars I preferred more as they were in 2.1, and I was one of the people against the changes others wanted for him.

I used to have Lucario tied with Fox for #1 in 2.1, but the changes he's received just do not suggest that kind of placement anymore. Yes, he received a few buffs with his nerfs but he's overall worse, in my perspective. Lucario is now forced to respect shielding opponents (unlike the spacees), and he's lost his most reliable kill set-ups, so now I find him to be like Marth, struggling to kill his opponent if he didn't manage to kill him super efficiently and early. My experiences playing with Vanguard have also suggested this to me. Yeah, he's not "as silly" now but he's also not nearly as good.

I won't argue into this either since...Well I thought lucario and Sonic were as gay as spacies because they had sillier designs in 2.1 than spacies...but now that they aren't silly I am not sure what they can do potentially I'll wait and see.

Sonic was never that good, even in 2.1. If Leelue thinks he was nerfed, then I doubt he's gotten so good that he deserves High Tier placement, let alone Top Tier. Even if he is indeed better now, I still find that he has problems dealing with hitboxes.

Leelue wasn't the best sonic in 2.1 The best sonic player of 2.1 is the reason why sonic was changed(nerfed) instead of being buffed. 2.1 Sonic in the hands of Wizzrobe could've probably beat anybody with any character. This same person claims Sonic is different but can be just as good..I'm waiting to see how he does in the invitational vids.

I also never had Ike in Top Tier in 2.1. He was good, but not that good imo. The fact that he was "nerfed" in 2.5 definitely means that he does not belong in Top Tier for me. His non-QD mobility has always been lackluster and now with the QD change, it's more so.

Ike was a pretty non obvious great character in 2.1. Much like Sheik he was S by default. People who were mediocre in melee stepped up to take first and 2nd and pretty much every event. Ike has the most top 3 placings of any character in 2.1....Results aren't everything but they are at least something. Not to mention he was one of the few characters that could kill bowser at like..60%... I mean...you didn't have to space or tip/non tip anything. Now with his nerfs you have to apply more thought to using him. IMO I wouldn't call it a major drop. More like the drop from NTSC sheik to PAL sheik.

A is High for me, not Top. They can't be Top if we're going so far as to put them an entire tier lower unless we're going the way of vBrawl and having 8+ tiers in our tier list.

Nah, I don't even like the ABC System that much tbh. I think should we use them they should have + and - added.

So for example Fox Falco and Sheilda could be S or S+ (I don't think anyone should be S+) and then the characters that are also S but not quite as flawless would be S- then A+, A, A-...etc.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Just curious, who in the roster do you think is lower than that?

I think ZSS is lower though she's new so **** could change but that's my first impression, maybe Pit too though to be honest I don't know much about him so I couldn't say for sure, any crazy Pit matches to watch?

Besides those 2 though I think everyone's at that level or higher, but was that exact level actually viable in tournaments? Have any Ganondorf's or Doc Mario's actually won any legit melee tournaments?

 

[Archangel]

If you think pit is low you are a fool.

 

[DMG]

Just curious, who in the roster do you think is lower than that?

In all fairness, I'm only singling out a few characters when I think of that general standard. Ness and G^W are the two main characters, sometimes I think about TL or whether Luigi/Pika were buffed enough to get past that level. 2.1 Wario hands down was not up to that lol. You guys did good here, along with whatever you had in store for ROB.


It's more about how that "benchmark" of power is implied and sometimes mentioned in the context of balance, that because everyone is as good as Melee Samus or better that the game is more balanced or that a character's success can be expected to match. Which is not necessarily true, because for all you know that just means you could be shifting the power and viability scale such that those Melee characters would be low tier in this game. It's good for balance not to have massive gaps in power, like Fox compared to any of the Melee low tiers, and buffing those characters up IS the right stuff and will lend to more balance ideally. I guess the general idea is that you can't imply every character in this game will have the same success as their corresponding "power" tier in Melee, due to the power creep and power shift that has taken place. Being better than Samus Ganon Doc etc CAN still mean being a bottom 10 character who isn't viable in P:M, and it would be misleading to represent the P:M Power structure in comparison to Melee to show "See you're better than x character, you can win just as much as they could in Melee/be a threat like they were"

 

[bubbaking]

Just curious, who in the roster do you think is lower than that?

G&W. Let's compare what NTSC Melee C Tier (Doc, Ganon, Samus) has and compare it to G&W. One should keep in mind that I personally think Melee Samus is better than Melee Ganon.

Melee Doc/Ganon/Samus

1. Great zoning tools, either in the forms of good hitboxes (Ganon), great projectiles (Doc), or both (Samus) that help with both defense and offense
2. Good survivability due to weight (Ganon and Samus) and good recovery tools (mostly Samus but also Ganon with Wizard's Foot)
3. Good KO power (Doc and Ganon) and/or great gimping and edgeguarding ability (all of them)
4. Reliable combos with safe starts and great finishes (mostly Doc and Ganon; Samus has short reliable combos that are great at putting the opponent offstage for a gimp)
5. Good OoS options (Samus and Doc, but even Ganon has a better OoS game than G&W)
6. Good TC ability, especially on plats
7. Good number of safe moves to throw out at neutral.
8. Decent mobilty

P:M G&W

1. Unreliable projectiles that, at best, help G&W defensively despite him being seemingly designed to be an offensively-based character.
2. Low survivability due to his extremely low weight, high comboability, and mediocre recovery.
3. Good KO power and gimping/edgeguarding ability
4. Reliable combos with unsafe starts and great finishes
5. Bad OoS game
6. Mediocre TC ability that becomes slightly better on plats
7. Low number of safe moves to throw out at neutral (jab, dtilt, bair, and bacon cancel)
8. Great mobility

So pretty much, the only categories in which P:M G&W matches or beats Melee's C Tier are in KO power, gimping/edgeguarding ability, and mobility.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Implying that GaW's up-b OoS isn't one of the best OoS options in the game
Implying that GaW is an offensive character, simply having the bacon and a long waveland gives him usable defensive options
Implying that his DACUS isn't fantastic for tech chasing

That's all the issues I have with that list though. I still think he's a bad-ish character.

 

[bubbaking]

Implying that GaW's up-b OoS isn't one of the best OoS options in the game

If that and WD OoS are all he has, then I'm sorry but his OoS game is definitely bad compared to the likes of Doc/Mario and Samus, although maybe not compared to Ganon as I initially said.

G&W's upB doesn't have a large hitbox, nor does it have a good deal of KB. It is unsafe unless there are platforms around. With his new-found ability to act after the upB, including the choice to jump (which is REALLY good), he is definitely much safer than he was in Melee, but he still isn't safe because now he has to get down and none of his aerials except for bair and, to an extent, dair are safe. His roll/spotdodge is still garbage, his shieldgrab is still bad, and his aerials OoS are still crappy unless you mis-space something unsafely on the back of his shield. As such, G&W is still bad at escaping pressure. More to come on this later.

Doc/Mario has a decent shieldgrab, good aerials OoS (nair and bair), a great upB OoS that can lead to combos, especially when cancelled, and a usmash OoS that gives his head invincibility. Samus obviously has her ubiquitous upB OoS, complete with perfect invincibility/hitbox overlap and TC set-ups on platforms, but she also has a great WD OoS, solidified by her awesome tilts, and good alternate options in her nair and bomb OoS.

Implying that GaW is an offensive character, simply having the bacon and a long waveland gives him usable defensive options

I'm going by his "glass cannon" aspect here. He has a lot of good kill power and a great combo game but he lacks the survivability and OoS tactics and a lot of the zoning tools needed to play a good defensive game. I actually have a long write-up in the works for why G&W was a bad character in Melee and, to an extent, in this game. He can play a campy wall game but it isn't in his best interests because of how quickly he can fall behind.

Implying that his DACUS isn't fantastic for tech chasing

I personally find G&W's DACUS to be one of the hardest DACUSes to execute in P:M. Not only that, his DACUS is only one move. Everything else he has is really mediocre unless he is on a platform.

/My opinions on G&W.

 

[DMG]

I don't think it's that great because it doesn't truly address the issues he has with people pressuring him up close, except for cases where people are super omega on top of him like Shine status or always Nairing into him. It addresses vertical much more than horizontal, and he's already incredibly bad at dealing with horizontal (really poor grab range, dropping shield and doing a move is way too slow). Honestly, half the time if you're trying to punish something with Upb OOS, you might as well not have been shielding to begin with and just Upb at the appropriate time. If someone has a cross up on you, Upb won't address that lol.


If you take the totality of his OOS game, it's really really subpar. As far as OOS options go, idk there are some pretty good ones. A lot of characters shield grabs (if you wanna count that towards OOS) like Marth or Dedede I would put above that. I would put Mario's Upb above that, depending on his opponent or the stage (and you can reverse Mario's Upb to address cross ups/covers him better horizontal). Bowser and Snake are obvious, Spacies have Shine, Samus if she were in would be up there. Etc


As far as his design, it really depends on what angle you wanna look at it. Staple G&W stuff is frankly punishing the opponent after they have attacked. CC Dtilt/Grab is a HUGE part of his game. You are near forced to be defensive with
G^W if you want to win, because what rinky dink approach are you going to use vs the cast and succeed? Ya know? Lol

 

[bubbaking]

Why Game & Watch was bad then, is bad now, and possibly will always be bad...

Melee G&W was trashy. Everyone knows it, but few people actually know all of the reasons that added up to him being such a garbage character. Oh sure, everybody knows about his L-cancel and shield mishaps, but those aren't even the majority of his most important problems, and his inability to L-cancel every aerial honestly wasn't even close to being his worst issue. Hopefully, by identifying his worst problems in Melee and their parallels in P:M, the pathway to improving Game can be revealed. As I will point out, all of Watch's problems were connected very intricately in this very vicious cycle that served to put him where he was in Melee's tier list. Here are what I think were G&W's 5 (well, 6) greatest weaknesses:
[COLLAPSE="The Past"]

1. Horrible shield - OK, so we all know this honestly is the start of G&W's problems in Melee, but it's only the start because as I wll show, this shield literally leads to everything else that is viably wrong with G&W. G&W's shield was ridiculously small in Melee to the point that it rarely covered any of his extremities. In order to shield anything without risking getting shield-poked, he had to lightshield everything. Of course, this caused him to always suffer increased shield stun and pushback, so this directly contributed to problem #2.
2. Lack of options to escape/relieve pressure - Lightshielding made G&W's shieldgrab a no-no. His grab is already pretty crappy with its range and the lightshield specifically spaced him so that the opponent was even further out of reach. His upB OoS had a small hitbox with weak KB and was unsafe, even on-hit, unless there was a platform that he could land on. His aerials OoS were bad (directly related to problem #5) because of startup, lag, or hitbox placement issues, and his rolls and spot-dodge were utter garbage. His rolls were the 2nd slowest rolls in the game after Samus. All of this meant that G&W's only real option to escape pressure most of the time was to WD OoS, and if the opponent was aware that was what G&W was gonna do most of the time, it made follow-ups on his OoS actions to continue pressure a piece of cake. I'm not sure, but I believe Game's horrible rolls directly led up to his problem #3.
3. Incredibly bad techrolls and get-up animations - So he can barely shield, he has to be lucky to escape from good shield-pressure, and as we're soon going to see, he has practically no hope of escaping once he's hit. G&W's tech animations are slower than slow. One can literally knock him down, just stand there, be late in reacting to his tech option, and STILL punish his tech easily. The only char in all of Melee who has it as bad as Game is Pichu and that's because Pichu doesn't GO anywhere when he techs. This problem of Watch's very clearly leads up to problem #4.
4. No survivability - G&W is the second lightest character in Melee, tied with Jigglypuff. However, his falling speed combined with this weight makes JUST the right combination for G&W to comboed to heck and back. Despite being so light, G&W's falling speed lets him get CG'd heavily by multiple chars and then he gets combo'd ULTRA hard. His super light weight simply seals the deal by making many of these combos 0-to-deaths or ones very close to that. How does problem #3 feed this particular problem? It's simple. Even if Gdubs 'escapes' these terrifying combos by being knocked down, he's practically doomed from the subsequent TC. Combos aren't 'dropped' when Game gets knocked down. They're simply extended, and easily at that. Of course, all 4 of the aforementioned problems lead to one conclusion for how Game must play. In the words of Smash 64 guru Isai, "Don't get hit!" Too bad problem #5 so conveniently gets in the way here.
5. Melee G&W has almost NO moves to throw out safely at neutral in order to start a combo. The only two attacks G&W can use without fearing punishment most of the time are jab and dtilt, and even dtilt can be easily jumped over and countered by several chars if it's predicted. It's a shame 'cause G&W has incredibly reliable and devastating combos, especially on FFers. Unfortunately, these combos are most oftentimes started with a throw and as I've already stated, G&W's grab is garbage. The easiest way to secure a grab for Gdubs is from his wonderful jab. It comes out on frame 4, which isn't THAT fast for a jab (most good jabs come out on frame 2 or 3), but what makes it so good are how ranged and disjointed the jab is, how early its IASA frames are, and how easily controlled his rapid jab is (each hit is input individually and can be acted out of much faster than the rapid jab of any other character, I believe). So G&W doesn't want to get hit, and thus he will be DDing, WDing, and otherwise abusing his mobility, but it's not to much avail because if his opponent knows anything about G&W, then he knows that he mostly just has to watch out for and respect two things: jab > grab and dtilt.
6. Some people have mentioned that G&W's recovery is also a large weakness of his, but I disagree with this. His upB goes extremely high (I always have trouble sweetspotting this move for that reason) and has very little landing lag (2-4 frames, I believe). The true reason G&W's recovery is perceived as bad is because of the aforementioned problem #4 (which leads into and is led into by all his other problems). G&W is so light and is combo'd so hard that by the time he's sent offstage, he's either dead or very far offstage. He can usually make it back if he uses his DJ and upB wisely but he only gets one chance, 'cause if he's hit again, his primarily vertical recovery won't be able to bring him back again, so I guess G&W's recovery could be a slight 'problem #6'.

Fun fact: G&W is one of the few chars that can survive breaking out of Kirby's Inhale offstage. Usually, if Kirby manages to actually Inhale someone offstage, it is suggested that he simply stay in Kirby's mouth and force him to either be perfect in his Swallowcide timing or die with the Inhaled character. If he breaks out, he'll continue to fall in his grab release animation while Kirby will be popped upwards (with all of his jumps), and this usually means certain death. However, G&W and a few other chars can reliably break out offstage and still recover back to the ledge or onstage.[/COLLAPSE]

Now for the interesting and more relevant information. What has P:M done for G&W and what problems does he still have from his times in Melee? Well I personally believe that P:M G&W has only managed to truly solve TWO out of the FIVE (six if you're counting recovery) problems that he had before, meaning that there's still a lot left that could be potentially improved for him.

[COLLAPSE="The Present"]

1. The shield issue has been addressed, and this is indeed a major improvement for G&W. I would even go so far as to say that it is his most notable buff coming over to P:M from Melee.
2. G&W still lacks ways to escape shield pressure. His rolls/spotdodge are still mediocre and while his upB and aerials have all been vastly improved, they still aren't very reliable as OoS options. His upB still doesn't have a large hitbox, it still doesn't have a good deal of KB, and it is still fairly unsafe unless there are platforms around. With his new-found ability to act after the upB, including the choice to jump (which is REALLY good), he is definitely much safer than he was in Melee, but he still isn't safe because now he has to get down and none of his aerials except for bair and, to an extent, dair are safe. G&W's aerials OoS are not better than they were before, even with universal L-cancelling, because, except for bair, they were never the types of moves one would use to escape shield pressure to begin with. Nair has too much startup and uair has bad hitbox placement. Bair is much better now for defensive OoS use but it obviously requires the opponent to be behind him, so his aerials OoS are still crappy unless you mis-space something unsafely on the back of his shield. To finish his OoS analysis, Game's shieldgrab is still bad, so G&W's OoS game is a little better than before but still a major problem for him.
3. Techrolls are still bad, so the spacees, Falcon, and a bunch of other chars are still going to mess him up badly by forcing those. One char, in particular, who comes to mind is Zard with his TC-inducing dthrow, dsmash, and dair.
4. His ability to attack safely at neutral is improved somewhat. It's still pretty low compared to the rest of the cast, but it isn't abysmally restricted to only two moves anymore. On top of jab and dtilt, G&W can now safely use bair (thanks to universal L-cancelling) and bacon cancels at neutral.
5. Obviously, G&W is still really light and easy to combo. This problem was basically ported as is to P:M, and I can't really blame the PMBR for doing this, since the aim is to preserve as much of G&W's 'Melee feel' as possible. This is STILL a problem, though.
6. Since I went to all the trouble of naming Game's recovery as a slight 6th weakness in Melee, I might as well cover how it was addressed in P:M, namely, not really at all. Yes, G&W can act after upB now, which is great, but as I've said a lot already, Watch's aerials aren't great at covering him and he will have trouble getting down. On top of that, his recovery is still mostly vertical so if he's sent out again, he's done.

[/COLLAPSE]

Interestingly (and funnily) enough, vBrawl actually addressed pretty much ALL of G&W's problems much better than the PMBR could, which might explain why so many people want some of his vBrawl aspects in P:M. One might blame this on vBrawl's engine and general mechanics, but as I'm going to point out, some of these changes are actually directly aimed at G&W and have little to do with 'vBrawl's general style'. Perhaps the PMBR should take a couple of notes (it would seem like they already have):
[COLLAPSE="The Future?"]

1. Working shield. This one is obvious and is also one of the few things that benefitted from the general vBrawl environment. Less shieldstun, increased shield KB, and buffed shield mechanics in general (decreased shield drop lag, etc.) automatically make G&W's shield game tons better.
2. G&W gains all the pressure-relieving tools he could possibly want. His upB OoS has 9 frames of invincibility which comes out during startup and overlaps deeply with the hitbox's active frames. This same upB can be acted out of freely. His nair comes out incredibly quickly, is disjointed, covers his entire body, and has very low lag. The same can be said of his bair except it doesn't cover his entire body but it is more disjointed. Even his uair gains some utility as a pressure-reliever because of the huge windbox it has.
3. Techrolls are still a problem but they are indirectly relieved both by vBrawl's anti-combo mechanics and G&W's great pressure-relieving tools, especially his upB.
4. Almost all of G&W's pressure-alleviating moves double as good, safe moves to use at neutral. Obviously, L-cancels were removed universally from the game, making his fair even more unsafe, but G&W easily makes up for this because most of his aerials either are easily AC'd, have very low landing lag, possess great grounded hitboxes, or do all three. In addition, his omnipresent upB is always there as his 'Get Out of Jail Free' card should the opponent try to take advantage of whiffed moves.
5. By virtue of hitstun cancelling, vBrawl removed most of Smash's combos. As such, G&W's light weight is hardly any more than a minor annoyance. In fact, his light weight, slower fall speed, and upB make follow-ups on him incredibly difficult, even without hitstun cancelling. On top of that, his survivability is hugely improved through a much better bucket break (thanks to hitstun cancelling), increased weight, and a vastly superior recovery.
6. G&W's recovery skyrockets from one of your more mediocre recoveries to one of the best recoveries in the game. Obviously, this is due to the parachute he gains after upBing in addition to his ability to act freely after it. As such, G&W gains access to a very good recovery both vertically AND horizontally, and he possesses the ability to cover himself with his good aerials. Very useful in this regard is his 'stall-then-fall' dair which allows him to quickly change his momentum and dive for the ground, giving him good recovery mix-ups, even without his DJ.

[/COLLAPSE]

Even SDR's G&W is still lackluster, despite all the buffs they poured into him to attempt to bring him up to everyone else's level. Perhaps G&W will never be able to be properly improved up to the same level of viability as everyone else unless he is made more like his vBrawl incarnation (fishbowl nair, upB parachute, increased weight, etc). The PMBR shouldn't be averse to trying out the idea after making him keep his vBrawl dthrow.

Tl;dr - Fear my long posts.

 

[cmart]

There are a lot of words here

 

[bubbaking]

Indeed there are. I tried to re-read my own post to edit grammar and I fell asleep...

 

[Kink-Link5]

Pikachu was already at Melee Doc/Samus level in Melee. His worse recovery is the only thing I could think would lead someone to conclude that he got worse.

He still might be on the lower end due to matchups, but no one knows any of those at the moment lol.

 

[Archangel]

I've been learning PM Pika and with a little practice with his QAC's and new aerials he's definately better. Probably still around the middle but not bad.

 

[bubbaking]

His decreased recovery, though.....

 

[DrinkingFood]

which hardly matters given his drastically increased on-stage abilities

 

[bubbaking]

I'm not saying it matters much, but it kinda matters when one of Pika's good traits in Melee was the ability to go super deep for a gimp and still make it back with QA. On top of that, he's light and not floaty. All light chars need their recovery.

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

If you think pit is low you are a fool.

Never said he was, just said I haven't seen anyone good play him

I say anyone who thinks Toon Link isn't absolutely amazing in 2.5 is a fool

 

[Kink-Link5]

The fact that Game and Watch is universally considered the worst character is concerning to me. I'll chalk it up to the small sample size available though, because it really shouldn't happen like this. Even the Melee BR has variances of 2+ for the top spot (Between Fox, Falco, and Jigglypuff). I really want to hear some authentic discussion on this accepted worst character, and why other characters aren't considered worse than him.

For the record I personally think Game and Watch is the only character close to genuinely bad in the game, akin to Melee Link or DK.

 

[DMG]

Ness is the only other one really kinda "down" there. 2.1 Wario was another candidate. There are characters who will probably be in the lower half, but you can still find good things about them. Zard Dthrow, Luigi misfire, Pikachu blah blah poopie pants, Ivy kinda sorta does stuff, etc. G&W stands out because most of the lower tiers from Melee either aren't in/going to be in, or got buffed up.

You could also chalk it up to the bias people form over "potential", or how people tout the balance as so good that a tier list isn't necessary because everyone is viable (AhaahaaaaaaHAHA *Cough HAHAHA cough*)

 

[bubbaking]

Pretty sure I just summed up all of why G&W is bad...

 

[Kink-Link5]

Well the pmbr has made it clear that balance isn't an issue at the moment, and that characters are just supposed to be well designed and fun to play as and against.

 

[bubbaking]

Agree 100% with that pop-up.

 

[Archangel]

Never said he was, just said I haven't seen anyone good play him

I say anyone who thinks Toon Link isn't absolutely amazing in 2.5 is a fool

Toon link is pretty good now with his slightly buffed Up-B which I don't think he needed...just learn to AGT GODDAMN IT!

As for Pit...he wasn't low in 2.1 how could he be low in 2.5 when he's better? Also how could you have not seen someone good play him? Even if you don't count players like me or walk as good...uh...Armada has won 2 tournaments with him in 2.1 and another tournament in 2.5....so yeah