Tier List Speculation

[Phaiyte]

Top 8....

Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Peach, Ike, Link, Metaknight

 

[OkamiBW]

Any reason Lucas isn't considered from your list Okami?

The list was made just from the raw top 16 chars. Purpose of it was to see if people would reach a top 8 by basically excluding outliers. That is...if you post a top 8 that says you think DeDeDe and GnW are top tiers, but everyone else thinks they're not...it was forcing you to choose another character. That's what the purpose of that list was. Regardless, people don't seem to like to follow directions, so I'll drop the top 8 idea for the time being.

For now, just continue to add your standard full tier lists and discuss your speculation regarding the topic.

 

[bubbaking]

I'm still wondering why the aggregate list shown in the OP is considering outliers. I think the below list that MCO provided alongside the one currently being displayed in the OP is more accurate.

[Collapse="Demo 2.5 Averages(outliers excluded)"]

[/collapse]

The number of tiers in the list considering outliers is unnecessarily large. Bottom Tier isn't so big that it needs three separate sub-tier groupings within itself.

Edit: OkamiBW, your system was kinda flawed I think, or rather, it's understandable that people "did not want to follow instructions." You ask people to choose which chars they think are in the top 8 from a list that you determine, but obviously, they all believe that the top 8 are the top 8 chars in their own personal tier lists. However, I guess I'll play along:

From the following characters, which do you think are in the top 8:
[collapse=Selectable chars]Fox
Falco
Sheik
Lucario
Jigglypuff
Mario
Peach
Marth
Ike
Pit
Diddy
Link
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Snake
Wolf [/collapse]

These are simply the top 8 from my own list.

 

[OkamiBW]

Which is why I'm dropping the top 8 lists for the time being. Anyways, I explained it in one of my posts, but basically the list in the OP was actually meant to be the outlier excluded one, but I decided to leave it up there until a new list was compiled and made pretty by MCO. In addition, the point was brought up that outliers would work themselves out with more data anyways.

Edit: OkamiBW, your system was kinda flawed I think, or rather, it's understandable that people "did not want to follow instructions." You ask people to choose which chars they think are in the top 8 from a list that you determine, but obviously, they all believe that the top 8 are the top 8 chars in their own personal tier lists.

This basically is saying that you support MCO's raw averages without the outliers removed. Or at least something along those lines. You know?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Excluding outliers from a mean is a much worse manipulation of statistics. Use the Mode and Median, or at the very least do standard deviation of the characters' mean placement if you want to make outlying positions weigh less without completely nulling them.

I mean I never payed much attention in stat classes, but the basic averages including SD are all fairly easy from what I remember.

 

[Deleted member]

Firstly, I just want to say that I am going to continue posting 2 lists (1 with and 1 without the outliers) Because it doesn't hurt to have more data, and some people prefer one over the other. It's not like I'm ONLY posting the tier list averages with no outliers. So if you support/disagree with 1, the other 1 is for you.

I understand that outliers work their way into data but we dont really have a big set of data. In addition to that, let me just post some of the changes that 1 person's opinion can make (at this point):
If i just add BlackGold's opinion of Mario (25th) Mario moves from 4th to 7th.
If I add Kink's opinion of Ike (22nd) Ike moves from 5th to 9th.

If everybody has a particular character ranked in the top 10, and one person has them ranked in the 20s, then that person is probably ignorant about the character's potential.

Another potential benefit is to analyze which characters have the most outliers. For example:
Fox and Falco were voted 1st and 2nd on everybody's list thus far, so they have no outliers. Sheik only has 1 outlier (12th). Ike and Jiggs have 2. Pikachu and Tink have like 4. while Lucario has 0. Characters with a lot of outliers are the ones that should be discussed more. Maybe we can even start making MU threads in the character specific section to try to focus more on those "controversial" characters.

This is similar to Kink's idea (I think it was kink) of using standard deviations, except it's less work.

Lastly, there are 3(out of 9) people so far who have 7 or more outliers. I was thinking about just excluding them until they played more, but then they'd feel left out, and have their feelings hurt, and nothing good would come of that.

Okami, what happened with the top 8 thing?

 

[Strong Badam]

I'm not sure if Falco is better than Fox in 2.5. Definitely is in SSBM, but I'm not sure how his matchups with the new good characters work out.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Ike should move from 5th to 9th anyways... You've got an incredible number of badly informed lists averaged in...

 

[Kink-Link5]

This is similar to Kink's idea (I think it was kink) of using standard deviations, except it's less work.

Even without the relatively simple SD formula, any graphing calculator can give you the standard deviation for a set of samples. Like if you let me see the raw data I can have all the characters' means and SDs in 30 minutes. Doing something because it's easy isn't your job when you're trying to represent data.

 

[bubbaking]

Which is why I'm dropping the top 8 lists for the time being. Anyways, I explained it in one of my posts, but basically the list in the OP was actually meant to be the outlier excluded one, but I decided to leave it up there until a new list was compiled and made pretty by MCO. In addition, the point was brought up that outliers would work themselves out with more data anyways.

OK, I see. That's true, but outliers can be pretty devastating, even with a lot of data. If 10 people consistently had Fox at #1 and then just one person had him at #33, he probably wouldn't be #1 in the compiled average list anymore.

This basically is saying that you support MCO's raw averages without the outliers removed. Or at least something along those lines. You know?

I think you're misunderstanding my post. I definitely support MCO's averages with the outliers given less weight (no piece of data should be outright ignored), but if that's not possible or feasible, then yes, they should be ignored. However, all I was saying was that your proposed system kind of defeated itself. People would obviously want to stick with their own top 8, not choose a top 8 from a list you pre-determined. It's much better for you to just take everyone's lists as they are and then find/remove the outliers yourself rather than ask people to submit them in a way that they don't exist.

 

[Dubforce]

I think people are really throwing away characters with a lot of potential to just keep the best melee characters at the very top.

I see a lot of Toon Link, Squirtle, and Sonic being low. I do not believe that is the case. All three of these chracters, especially Toon Link, are very good.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Everyone is "very good". In order to justify placing them higher, you have to convince them why they are better than other characters.

 

[OkamiBW]

I think you're misunderstanding my post. I definitely support MCO's averages with the outliers given less weight (no piece of data should be outright ignored), but if that's not possible or feasible, then yes, they should be ignored. However, all I was saying was that your proposed system kind of defeated itself. People would obviously want to stick with their own top 8, not choose a top 8 from a list you pre-determined. It's much better for you to just take everyone's lists as they are and then find/remove the outliers yourself rather than ask people to submit them in a way that they don't exist.

I took the top half of the cast. If anything, people's own tier lists as a whole had more of an impact on choosing the list than me.

 

[DMG]

I'm not sure if Falco is better than Fox in 2.5. Definitely is in SSBM, but I'm not sure how his matchups with the new good characters work out.

Fox probably does a bit better vs most of them. The one MU I think Falco may be better in is vs Snake, and probably DK because as you well know lasers are obnoxious.

Overall, there really aren't many new characters I see that would actually manage even vs them. What I'm interested to see is how the stage list will change anything for them. You might be able to find even or better on some of the occasional CP's if your character is up there.

I think people are really throwing away characters with a lot of potential to just keep the best melee characters at the very top.

I see a lot of Toon Link, Squirtle, and Sonic being low. I do not believe that is the case. All three of these chracters, especially Toon Link, are very good.

The better Melee characters are still really good. Look at their MU spread: not many Brawl newcomers that give Marth trouble or give Sheik trouble (Jiggs might have to worry though). Peach does pretty good too (and with the prior 2.1 "accident" buffs she could do silly turnip holding things). Sheik lost the perfect Dthrow but she's still a monster.

With that said, look at how many people place Falcon and Ganon balls low and do have newer people much higher.

Everyone is "very good". In order to justify placing them higher, you have to convince them why they are better than other characters.

Most characters are. Most. G^W still needs some love.

 

[bubbaking]

Fox can adapt to anything better than Falco. There are a few MUs where Falco just dominates way better than Fox does, but I'm pretty sure that Fox can adapt to versatile stagelists more than Falco can. There are gonna be very few stages that can actually be used to 'CP Fox'. That doesn't really apply to Falco.

For example (might not be a good one, but bear with me), Bowser probably prefers small stages against the spacees where he can pin them down and destroy them. However, even on those stages, the omnipotent Fox DD will give him a solid chance against Bowser while Falco will have a MUCH harder time, since his mobility is much worse and lasers don't hurt Bowser as much as they do other chars.

 

[DMG]

He should be able to yeah. Still, they might have more to worry about than FD this time around.

 

[Onomanic]

I'm curious, is the PMBR going to act similarly to the BBR and MBR and create tier lists and official stage lists/rule sets? I would assume they would.

 

[OkamiBW]

I'm curious, is the PMBR going to act similarly to the BBR and MBR and create tier lists and official stage lists/rule sets? I would assume they would.

You do have to keep in mind though that the BBR and MBR isn't putting their time into making their game. We, on the other hand, do have that quota to meet. So I'm not sure if we will fulfill the standard "We are the BR and we make official tier lists" sort of deal.

Nothing's set in stone though, lol. ^_^

But yeah, basically, I'm not certain if the PMBR should necessarily both design the game and tell everyone what to believe for the tier list or even the official stagelist for that matter.

 

[DMG]

Make the stage list a recommendation of possible neutrals and CP's, not whether to use 5-7 neutrals and which CP's to specifically use. Tier list is a bit different, but in all honesty I wouldn't even be concerned with making an official tier unless the next update is over a year away. The game can massively change instantly when version 2.6/3 come out in 6+ months, and that's after the shift we're already experiencing from the 2.1 to 2.5 change. Trying to do a tier list while the game is still changing and being added to at a nice pace doesn't make a whole lot of sense, so that part I wouldn't worry about.

Once things have settled, no more characters or stage ideas or xyz patches, then yes their role should be Stages and Tier list. For this "part" in history of the game still being developed in a sense, those aren't even really on the table as far as super standard/official goes.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

If the PMBR actually made a tier list, it'd basically be them admitting that their game isn't totally balanced. If they're doing their jobs right (which they are), they shouldn't really be able to tell which characters are the "best" ones (and most of them can't).

 

[Kink-Link5]

[collapse=Character Means with (Standard Deviations)]1. Fox 1.00 (0.00)
2. Falco 2.11 (0.33)
3. Sheik 5.11 (3.30)
4. Lucario 7.33 (3.08)
5. Mario 7.89 (7.39)
6. Jigglypuff 8.11 (3.48)
6. Peach 8.11 (2.89)
8. Marth 8.67 (4.06)
9. Ike 9.22 (5.70)
10. Pit 11.44 (4.07)
11. Link 12.44 (6.78)
12. Diddy Kong 13.33 (5.00)
13. Wolf 14.89 (5.28)
14. Snake 15.00 (5.02)
15. Captain Falcon 15.22 (5.14)
16. Ganondorf 15.44 (6.46)
17. Squirtle 18.89 (7.90)
18. Zelda 19.33 (7.30)
19. Pikachu 20.22 (5.52)
19. Zero Suit Samus 20.22 (6.06)
21. Lucas 20.56 (6.97)
22. Toon Link 22.22 (7.90)
23. Charizard 22.78 (6.10)
24. Ivysaur 23.00 (3.67)
25. Sonic 23.22 (8.30)
26. Donkey Kong 23.56 (4.28)
27. Bowser 25.00 (5.36)
28. R.O.B. 25.56 (3.43)
28. Wario 25.56 (5.55)
30. Luigi 26.00 (2.83)
31. Ness 27.67 (3.24)
32. King DeDeDe 29.11 (5.80)
33. Mr. Game and Watch 32.78 (0.67)[/collapse]

[collapse=Character Standard Deviations with (Means) and {Mean placement}]
1. Fox 0.00 (1.00) {1}
2. Falco 0.33 (2.11) {2}
3. Mr. Game and Watch 0.67 (32.78) {33}
4. Luigi 2.83 (2.83) {30}
5. Peach 2.89 (8.11) {6}
6. Lucario 3.08 (7.33) {4}
7. Ness 3.24 (27.67) {31}
8. Sheik 3.30 (5.11) {3}
9. R.O.B. 3.34 (25.56) {28}
10. Jigglypuff 3.48 (8.11) {6}
11. Ivysaur 3.67 (23.00) {24}
12. Marth 4.06 (8.67) {8}
13. Pit 4.07 (11.44) {10}
14. Donkey Kong: 4.28 (23.56) {26}
15. Diddy Kong 5.00 (13.33) {12}
16. Snake 5.02 (15.00) {14}
17.Captain Falcon: 5.14 (15.22) {15}
18. Wolf 5.28 (14.89) {13}
19. Bowser: 5.36 (25.00) {27}
20. Pikachu 5.52 (20.22) {19}
21. Wario 5.55 (25.56) {28}
22. Ike 5.70 (9.22) {9}
23. DeDeDe: 5.80 (29.11) {32}
24. Zero Suit Samus 6.06 (20.22) {19}
25. Charizard 6.10 (22.78) {23}
26. Ganondorf 6.46 (15.44) {16}
27. Link 6.78 (12.44) {11}
28. Lucas 6.97 (20.56) {21}
29. Zelda 7.30 ( 19.33) {18}
30. Mario 7.39 (7.89) {5}
31. Squitle 7.90 (18.89) {17}
31. Toon Link 7.90 (22.22) {22}
33. Sonic 8.30 (23.22) {25}[/collapse]

 

[DMG]

If the PMBR actually made a tier list, it'd basically be them admitting that their game isn't totally balanced. If they're doing their jobs right (which they are), they shouldn't really be able to tell which characters are the "best" ones (and most of them can't).

That's not entirely true. While the ideal goal of balance is noble and worthy to fight for, it's not that realistic to achieve besides dumbing down options or duplication. Them making a tier list doesn't make sense, because in 6 months Ness may get buffed MK may be out, a new stage might come up or we might discover how uncompetitive some of the new stages are, etc. It's not really an admission that they've failed to balance the game, or that the list itself demonstrates how good characters are compared to Melee (although the claim that everyone is at or above Melee Ganon/Samus/Doc level IS bull imo). A character being bottom 10 doesn't mean balance is truly that poor: could just mean that characters above him are better but in miniscule proportions each "step" of the ladder up.

They should not make a tier list until the game is at a point to settle down character/stage wise. Once it's pretty clear who all will be added, and they get added, I'd give the game a solid year to year and a half before making an offical one. That will give you a good glimpse of tournaments running that patch or standard, which may be different from prior ones and who's results are not representative of the metagame right now (would be like taking 2.1 Ike results and saying he's that good in 3.1 when that might not be the case)

 

[`dazrin]

I'm curious, is the PMBR going to act similarly to the BBR and MBR and create tier lists and official stage lists/rule sets? I would assume they would.

No- the PMBR isn't taking any responsibility for the creation of official tier lists, MU charts, stagelists, or any of that sort of thing. The PMBR basically acts as the game's development team.

Perhaps sometime down the line, the community will form their own "project m back room" made of top players and reputable personalities among the community and take responsibilities similar to that of the MBR and the BBR.

I personally don't see that happening until Project M has a gold release and is declared as finalized, though, since everything is subject to change until then.

 

[bubbaking]

Even the BBR and MBR don't dictate rule-sets and stage-lists. They can only suggest recommended ones. In the end, all of the power regarding such things lies in the hands of the TOs. P:M is no different.

 

[The_NZA]

If the PMBR actually made a tier list, it'd basically be them admitting that their game isn't totally balanced. If they're doing their jobs right (which they are), they shouldn't really be able to tell which characters are the "best" ones (and most of them can't).

That's sort of a ridiculous statement. That's like saying "if Blizzard patches their game, they are admitting their game is unbalanced which would imply they screwed up". No game is perfectly balanced and only the ones diligently updated have a shot at being that. So I don't think it would be problematic for the BR to admit that their game has tiers. In fact, I'd prefer it that way, because then if there were problems, the BR would be able to address them.

 

[crabsmack]

That's sort of a ridiculous statement. That's like saying "if Blizzard patches their game, they are admitting their game is unbalanced which would imply they screwed up".

I think you're misinterpreting his point. He was saying that, if the PMBR could see clear imbalances, they wouldn't be there. They have released what they perceived to be a balanced game, and our (very hastily formed) opinions aren't enough to sway them. A few months from now, if we get a 2.6 or a 3.0 or whatever, the PMBR will take in everything they've observed and "rectify" anything they perceive to have been wrong in 2.5. It is very likely they will not agree with us on a great many things, and I can't blame them. The metagame simply has not developed at all yet.

Melee's tier list evolved over years. Jigglypuff was 17/26 at the beginning- what if she had received buffs? The PMBR must be very cautious with their changes, and I applaud them for their "treat it as if it is the final game" stance. It's a large reason P:M has been so professional and successful, where many mods have failed.

 

[Soft Serve]

People are sleeping on GnW. He got a massive amount of small little tweaks that make him flow incredibly well. And that Judgement, like what the hell. He has follow ups on every number but 1 and 9, and certain ones (looking at the electric one) give you like over 40 frames to react and read DI. Bacon is beastly. Aerials after up-B are faster and has no forced fast fall, letting him combo people with it that are not Fox.
I don't even play Watch but I see immense potential.

I'm going to edit this with my own tier list later tonight, hopefully. Picking the bottom 3 is so hard when no character deserves to be below the bottom 10.

 

[DMG]

Say we are sleeping on G^W. Who is he stricly better than? Because we have these conversations and they always start or end with "This character is really good and has potential". I mean for every character in question: Ness old Wario Zard G^W TL Rob Lucas etc. We form these self looping "he's good, but so is he, everyone is good no one is bot 5" ladders that never end and instead we get a high tier of 20 and a mid tier of 5 characters because no one wants to say otherwise.


Nobody wants to label a character as bottom 5, because then it will sound like the game isn't really balanced. Or that we can't use the terminology "low tier" since "everyone" is on par with Melee Samus (which I can't even begin to agree with). I'm fine with people saying lets wait for the meta to develop a bit, because there are characters who definitely have something going for them (Lucas comes to mind, Snake on a more minor note) and it will probably take some time. But we don't give everyone a free "tier list" pass because they might be able to do some stuff, sometimes. Like it's silly.


G&W has been one of those characters where you can't show a clear path of viability, of who he beats and results that show it. We have a lot of the same issues of his still around from Melee, and while I think everyone can more than appreciate the tweaks that make him function like an actual character should (no crappy shield, can L cancel the aerials he couldn't before, etc), he just isn't truly up to par with a lot of the cast. He's not outright ridiculous enough or limiting enough. In that respect, he's arguably a very fair character, much moreso than some of the really lame stuff you see Spacies do or some of the easy tech chases Falcon Marth Sheik get. That's part of the reason I like playing him: you gotta think more or work harder for those kills and those reads, those grabs etc. Makes you feel great to 0-death someone with G^W. None of that means, however, that he's doing it efficiently or effectively compared to the other characters in the game.

 

[DrinkingFood]

dont even group lucas with those losers
he's the cool new kid on the block with a shine
ain't nothin' he cant do
he's easily better than at least half the cast

 

[DMG]

I separated him later on. I mentioned him initially because he IS one of those characters that everyone clamours over their potential. There are characters like him, and then there are people who talk about TL G&W Ness etc like they are all Mario level or that they function soooooo well... when most of the time it isn't close to true.

 

[Hylian]

I love lucas's moveset but I feel like he gets touched and just dies to the entire cast lol not to mention his recovery is horrible. I don't think he's bad at all but it seems like you have to play very careful with him.

 

[DMG]

The tether part makes up for it a bit. If he could only Upb, yeah he'd be in trouble.

The fast fall part of him turns him into a spacie for a lot of combos. Maybe even slightly easier because I think he's a bit lighter.

 

[Hylian]

The tether part makes up for it a bit. If he could only Upb, yeah he'd be in trouble.

The fast fall part of him turns him into a spacie for a lot of combos. Maybe even slightly easier because I think he's a bit lighter.

Yeah how hard he gets combo'd is huge. The teather is great, it has long range and I pretty much always use it over up-b to recover(up-b has like no priority or range lol airdodge teather goes like the same distance), but the only problem I've been having is that it's very telegraphed and a lot of characters easily hit him out of his teather and then he has to up-b which loses to like every move in the game.

Again, I think lucas is good, it just feels like I'm playing against IC's every match except grab is their whole moveset lol.

 

[bubbaking]

The tether part makes up for it a bit. If he could only Upb, yeah he'd be in trouble.

The fast fall part of him turns him into a spacie for a lot of combos. Maybe even slightly easier because I think he's a bit lighter.

Well at least his PKT doesn't get eliminated completely from just jumping into it. You're right. He DOES get combo'd as hard as, or harder than, the spacees because he falls slightly slower (combined with the fact that he's actually heavier), so he gets hit with CGs easier and throw combos on him are more devastating. It's kinda like how Bowser gets combo'd harder than DK because he's heavier but falls slower.

Yeah how hard he gets combo'd is huge. The teather is great, it has long range and I pretty much always use it over up-b to recover(up-b has like no priority or range lol airdodge teather goes like the same distance), but the only problem I've been having is that it's very telegraphed and a lot of characters easily hit him out of his teather and then he has to up-b which loses to like every move in the game.

One thing everyone should remember is that PKT2 landing lag is only 10 frames (like WD lag) as long as you avoid falling for a long time. Therefore, sometimes you should just mix it up and recover high for the stage. His PKT2 being more maneuverable than Ness' really helps with this. If you 'drill' the PKT2 into the ground, it's actually hard to punish as long as you don't whiff right in front of the opponent.

 

[Hylian]

Well at least his PKT doesn't get eliminated completely from just jumping into it. You're right. He DOES get combo'd as hard as, or harder than, the spacees because he falls slightly slower (combined with the fact that he's actually heavier), so he gets hit with CGs easier and throw combos on him are more devastating. It's kinda like how Bowser gets combo'd harder than DK because he's heavier but falls slower.



One thing everyone should remember is that PKT2 landing lag is only 10 frames (like WD lag) as long as you avoid falling for a long time. Therefore, sometimes you should just mix it up and recover high for the stage. His PKT2 being more maneuverable than Ness' really helps with this. If you 'drill' the PKT2 into the ground, it's actually hard to punish as long as you don't whiff right in front of the opponent.

How is it hard to punish when like every move in the game goes through it? They just attack it any time I use PKT2 above or below the stage lol.

 

[bubbaking]

OkamiBW, I don't know what your problem with making polls is. I can easily make one in all the threads I've created. It's at the top under "Thread Tools". One of the options is "Add a Poll to this Thread".

 

[OkamiBW]

OkamiBW, I don't know what your problem with making polls is. I can easily make one in all the threads I've created. It's at the top under "Thread Tools". One of the options is "Add a Poll to this Thread".

Under thread tools, I have:
Show Printable Version
Email This Page
Subscribe to this Thread

P.S. Are you going to APEX?

 

[bubbaking]

I wish I was, but my lack of funds prevents me from doing so...

Hmmm, that's weird. This is what it looks like on my screen:
[collapse=]

[/collapse]

Lolz, sorry it's hard to see, but basically the red circles indicate that SWF is letting me make a poll for my thread nine days after I've made it. I don't know why you have such a unique case. Perhaps try contacting a mod (although Hylian is right here <__<)?

 

[Archangel]

Naturally someone has to be bad. So far I can think of 4 sections and 1 stand alone.

S level (about 10 people)
A(12 more)
B(10 more)
C(Game&Watch)

 

[Deus]

Curious why you guys consistantly rank Pit around 10? I'm not arguing I'm just honestly asking.

I haven't even been able to play P:M against another human (well, human that was remotely good at melee at least). It's just the feel I get from playing Pit is just that he doesn't have anything too special and lacks good KO power/options. I also was dissapointed (unless I'm doing it wrong) about the decent amount of time it takes from starting his over B to when you can make an aerial come out. There could very well be some tricksies I don't know about with him as well though to validate his rank.

His arrows are awesome and fun and overall I think he's fun to play, just didn't really stand out to me as higher tier. I mean he doesn't he say cool things like "You're through!" or throw his sword into the ground, cross his arms and stare down and to the side like a bad mofo. just saying...

Now Part 2 : Lucas
As for moves hitting through Lucas' PKT2, that's odd because it seems like everytime a move would always clank against it... once again, playing against comps for the most part, but I play him the most. I'm pretty surprised at the lower placement of Lucas, I realize he gets combo'd and no I would not want to fight Marth on FD , but the spacies seem to manage with that downfall, granted they're a serious level above Lucas.

He just has so much going for him:
- great run speed so great momentum into things like running nair and just speed in general, long initial dash animation for really nice Marth-esque dash dancing
- Sexy WD.
- A great projectile (so much hit stun!).
- Surprisely good tether grab, jc grabs naturally, and a great comboing dthrow and a great combo uthrow at 0 to low and then starts becoming deadly around 100 (obviously stage/enemy variables).
- aerial Z tether smack
- extremely short SH, extremely high full jump.
- combos combos combos. nair into anything (including my favorite: downB ) nair>fair>dair spike *drool*. And his nair has almost no landing lag a la shiek fair if you botch the l-cancel (granted it's pretty important to make your l-cancels on your combo starter or anything but its nice insurance if they shield it completely)
- great KO power, fantastic smashes that get even better with his charge B.
- fairly small target
- solid edge guarding with dsmash, dair especially when able to set up with a side B, usmash for high recoveries and ledge jumps, great WD back for intercepting the roll, etc
I mean I can't think of a move he has that isn't good/has a use. We all know one of his major flaws is the upB. would I love to have Mewtwo's? sure (the one extremely good move Mewtwo had ) but atleast unlike Ness he does have the tether and he can also be more tricky angling it as someone already said due his PK thunder having a sharper turn radius. I think the main thing about playing Lucas' is you absolutely have to be on top of your DI which honestly IMO from playing competitive melee for so long is one of the hardest things to truly proficient/extremely consistant. I'm not saying he's top 5, but I think he's top 10, better than Pit...

sorry for the essay, and actually can you guys give Lucas' Mewtwo's upB