Tier List Speculation

[Shadic]

Toon link is pretty good now with his slightly buffed Up-B which I don't think he needed...just learn to AGT GODDAMN IT!

Toon Link's recovery isn't better in 2.5. It hits harder the the beginning and softer at the end, but no trajectory difference.

Man you guys. Not everything changed, even if it's subject to.

 

[T44]

I just don't get it. Is there something Melee has that Project M does not? You'd think all the melee pros would just transfer. Since it's pretty much the same game, with all the viable characters transfered. All new viable characters, better starting stages, a more vivid choice in counter picking stages, less gap between tiers, and it's a free game. Does the project M team just suck at marketing?

A lot of people still complain about the "feel" of PM. As kink mentioned the engine is still not perfect yet and all the characters are obviously not added. The engine combined with the tweaks to the melee veterans and the mechanics of the new brawl characters gives it a different feel in general that a lot of melee players don't like as much as just straight-up melee

 

[Kink-Link5]

Toon Link's recovery isn't better in 2.5. It hits harder the the beginning and softer at the end, but no trajectory difference.

Man you guys. Not everything changed, even if it's subject to.

I can confirm this.

Both statements really. Game and Watch is like identically bad as in 2.1, for example.

 

[Stunts]

I can confirm this.

Both statements really. Game and Watch is like identically bad as in 2.1, for example.

um, nope..

 

[Sanity's_Theif]

Yes, I also think he'll be just fine. If you look at my latest tier list, I have him in High Tier. I just don't think he's Top Tier like some people are saying.

Pit can chase you offstage but in a MUCH more restricted manner than he could in 2.1. In 2.1, he could do something like dthrow > fair > fair > glide offstage > fair KO > glide back. Now, Pit can only do that if he glides straight from the ground. Needless to say, the combo will be dropped.

I honestly didn't mind a character that was based largely on gimping early, 'cause he had all the tools to do that really well. That and his zoning/camping prowess made him a good character in 2.1. I'm not saying he's not good in 2.5, but I highly doubt that he's better.

Yea the lack of the glide shenanigans pretty much took out any fun I was having playing Pit

I can confirm this.

Both statements really. Game and Watch is like identically bad as in 2.1, for example.

not a chance

My point is your working in opposite land dude. He should be almost fox tier in 2.1 and fox tier/possibly above fox tier in 2.5.

I had thought this was the case too, if the character isn't worse than Fox why make them worse? Changes for design are an excuse but how it might make the character worse should be considered and compensated for too, at least that's what I think

 

[Archangel]

These boots were made for BOINGBOINGBOINGing.


From just a technical standpoint though, Melee still has its momentum shifts calculated earlier than PM, as well as a Sheik with something that is a threat to an opponent holding downward, among several nuances like shield pushback, grab vs attack mechanics (Brawl's trade as opposed to Melee's grabs outright win), and other reaadsahjkdsajkda.

There's small differences that go into Melee's feel. PM is at like 90% Melee at the moment, and those small changes can make a difference.

you forgot about light shielding.

 

[BoundlessNess]

Had the chance of playing 2.5 for a bit now. Here's my list:

S





A











B










C

 

[Translucent]

Pit and Link are quite low...

Props for putting squirtle that high though. XD

 

[ss118]

DDD is the best character in project M lol

I disagree with that tier list so much.

 

[Stunts]

I'll wait till the day when someone makes the list that doesn't have Fox/Falco in the top two.

 

[DrinkingFood]

playing 2.5 for a bit

S


B


C

Well there's your problem

 

[bubbaking]

I've said this before, but this is just false. Arrow speed and maneuverability were not changed.

I stand corrected and I apologize. However, my argument still stands. The (nonexistant) arrow nerfs weren't even the biggest point of my statements about his nerfs. That would be his changed glide mechanics, namely, his loss of a glide in the air and his inability to 'launch' himself forwards when out of glides.

Game and Watch is like identically bad as in 2.1, for example.

This is just simply not true. Do people know about G&W's bucket buff?

Yea the lack of the glide shenanigans pretty much took out any fun I was having playing Pit

Exactly why I think I'm gonna stop playing Pit in 2.5. He's just too different, and a lot of the fun strategies I implemented while playing him simply don't exist any more. Not that I'm saying he's bad or not fun or anything. I just don't think he's for me anymore.....

Had the chance of playing 2.5 for a bit now. Here's my list:

[COLLAPSE="Tier List"]S





A











B










C









[/COLLAPSE]

Wow, that Top Tier really makes this look like a 2.1 tier list.
Props to having Squirt and Diddy so high, though.

I'll wait till the day when someone makes the list that doesn't have Fox/Falco in the top two.

My 2.1 list had Fox and Lucario as the top two. Falco was actually #4 for the longest time.

 

[Archangel]

I think it makes sense now....rather or not pit is better or worse will eventually show up as more people use him in tournament. However for now it seems to be a matter of styles. People who were aggressive(tried to be) and really tried to make kills happen on stage...those pit's believe he's better. The ones who were more defensive(dare I say campy) in playstyle and like to abuse the wings to stay away from opponents...they think Pit's worse.

Also just wanted to say Diddy is pretty good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knrmCjBjoB0

No, I am not playing Pit vs diddy but I instead busted out my fraudulent fox...

I'll upload like 5 or 6 matches of me playing him in friendlies later today. Sub to me and you'll see.

 

[bubbaking]

Not everyone has to be super aggro. I personally thought that Pit was designed to be more of a defensive zoner. His arrows have no cancelling mechanism of any sort and their maneuverability can only be abused when there is a little bit of distance between Pit and his opponent. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but it would be a shame if chars' designs are being changed in order to kinda force certain playstyles. Pit's design favoring one style over the other doesn't make him a better char in my eyes, though.

 

[Archangel]

Not everyone has to be super aggro. I personally thought that Pit was designed to be more of a defensive zoner. His arrows have no cancelling mechanism of any sort and their maneuverability can only be abused when there is a little bit of distance between Pit and his opponent. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but it would be a shame if chars' designs are being changed in order to kinda force certain playstyles. Pit's design favoring one style over the other doesn't make him a better char in my eyes, though.

I wouldn't say it's forcing a playstyle...I can still play just as campy vs the characters I could time out as before. If I don't want Bowser for example to catch me...well he won't. Not if I CP a big stage and run.

The difference is he's not what you'd call a specialist. In 2.1 he could beat anyone he could out camp or get some hard reads/gimps on early. However he had no real threat...even his arrows in 2.1(and still) alot of people I played vs often just started clanking them with aerials and rushing after me because without power you get no respect. and pit had almost no power...what little power he had was extremely hard to use. I said it once and I'll say it again...in 2.1...the SANDBAG fell out of my Fsmash and hit the ground....does that not speak for itself? LOL.

Anyway I don't think pit is a spacie in terms of pure aggression. I think he's more well rounded which was the original Idea behind pit...not just in PM but in Brawl as well. You can move away and shoot or you can stand you ground and fight with pit now.

EDIT: matches uploaded vs a friend of mine trying his hand vs my pit with a few different characters at like 2AM.....the end of what would've been the last match is just funny...All I'll say is 0-RAGE-QUIT! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb6XLcJ_GSg

 

[Jolteon]

S



A

There are other characters?

 

[9Kplus1]

S



A
...

F

Fixed

dw, I know that you were thinking the exact same thing

 

[Jolteon]

Fixed

dw, I know that you were thinking the exact same thing

 

[BoundlessNess]

I don't see how Pit is very good. Archangel, you definitely play Pit better than I can. I usually only ever play against floaties and never get a chance to combo them as much. If anyone has any Pit vs. Floaties I'd be interested in seeing them. Then maybe I'd reconsider my opinion of Pit.

 

[Hashtag]

No one really comboes floaties man. They can usually DI out of your combos early which is what makes fighting them annoying. Usually get your small attack string in and then it's back to neutral unless you had the speed and reach to try and continue that pressure. Even then, you had to pick your spots.

 

[Juushichi]

GnW might be comparatively as bad as before, eventually. I honestly don't think that when you compare him to other characters that he's like, shot up a theoretical tier list or anything.

What I will say is that 2.5 Watch is leagues better than 2.1 Watch was and that he is more equipped to deal with characters than he was in his 2.1 iteration. He's not quite 2012 Oni (a character that has mostly evenish matchups and some disadvantages), but close. I'm pretty happy about where he is as a character. Playing with him at APEX, there were few MU's that I felt he was woeful in, but a lot of places where I could play better or needed to adapt to opposing character options better.

I can work with this character as he is now.

 

[Archangel]

That list was so bad...

 

[OkamiBW]

Okami's 2.5 Tier List v3 Post-APEX with tons of bias:

Top
1. Fox

2. Falco

3. Mario

4. Sheik

5. Marth

6. Peach

High
7. Jigglypuff

8. Pit

9. Wolf

10. Link

11. Wario

12. Pikachu

13. Sonic

14. Lucario

Mid
15. Ike

16. Toon Link

17. Lucas

18. Snake

19. Donkey Kong

20. Zero Suit Samus

21. Diddy

Low
22. Falcon

23. Bowser

24. Ganondorf

25. Ivysaur

26. Zelda

27. Charizard

28. R.O.B.

Bottom
29. Squirtle

30. Luigi

31. DeDeDe

32. Ness

33. Game and Watch

Can you tell I lost to Reflex?

Spoiler

Not salty. More amazed.

 

[bubbaking]

After seeing the rage that was Leffen, how can you put ZSS so low? Glad to see how low Lucario is though. People are finally starting to see it. Everyone else went up/got better + he went down/got worse = huge drop.

GnW might be comparatively as bad as before, eventually. I honestly don't think that when you compare him to other characters that he's like, shot up a theoretical tier list or anything.

What I will say is that 2.5 Watch is leagues better than 2.1 Watch was and that he is more equipped to deal with characters than he was in his 2.1 iteration. He's not quite 2012 Oni (a character that has mostly evenish matchups and some disadvantages), but close. I'm pretty happy about where he is as a character. Playing with him at APEX, there were few MU's that I felt he was woeful in, but a lot of places where I could play better or needed to adapt to opposing character options better.

I can work with this character as he is now.

That's pretty much what the bucket buff did for Game. Really revolutionized certain MUs. Left others exactly the same or hardly much better.

 

[OkamiBW]

Oh trust me, I played leffen. I got 3-0'd by his ZSS while trying Sheik/Marth/TL. I still feel like she lacks approach options and requires good reads more so than other characters.

If you watch APEX videos of Reflex, you'll realize Wario's super good.

 

[JCaesar]

Man I must be amazing to have beaten so many top players with such a trash character.

Hint: I'm not amazing.

 

[Kink-Link5]

People will consistently place R.O.B. in low, JCaesar. You could make his Nair +7 on block and do 30 damage and he'd still be "low tier" to most people.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Man I must be amazing to have beaten so many top players with such a trash character.

Hint: I'm not amazing.

Might be the Ike effect, to a less extreme extent.
That being that his success is partially derivative of lack of matchup experience.
But if I were to place ROB low, it wouldn't be because he is bad, but because so many other characters are good.

Okami's 2.5 Tier List v3 Post-APEX with tons of bias:

High
8. Pit

9. Wolf

12. Pikachu

Mid
15. Ike

I approve

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Well, he's not a Melee character, JCaesar.

 

[Revven]

Not a Melee character? Automatically D tier.

 

[V-K]

Maybe you guys should only seperate the tierlist into 3 parts instead of 5.

 

[Archangel]

Someone else gave pit top 8...Approved by Archangel

@JCaesar R.O.B. is actually amazing.

 

[9Kplus1]

High














Mid-High









Mid









Unusable / No winnable MUs






The next ****** who places DDD in lower tiers will get their butt slapped by yours truly

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Low-High sounds silly.

 

[Juushichi]

I guess my GnW didn't show anything.

Damn.

ROB is cool.

 

[Oracle]

Jc's rob is pretty good i guess. It got better once he started copying my playstyle

 

[JCaesar]

I've never seen you play...

 

[GHNeko]

Pretty sure he's joking lol.

 

[Archangel]

I'll put up some rob later today.

 

[Oracle]

This is Oracle. Not joking