This Mage's Stages! Counterpick Thread, Discussing: Diddy!

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Sorry, yes I meant Fsmash ^_^

And Im thinking Zelda isnt going to hop on a paltform if Falco is close enough to do a SH aerial.

We were also thinking that although yes, side-b does go almost the whole way across BF, a small stage kinda makes lazer spam less effective, cus then Zelda has less ground to cross to get in range. And, side-b has mediocre priority, and its obvious when hes about to use it, so Im pretty sure NL has mroe priority than it.

and any of Zelda's many many many moves with transcendent priority

 

[Reizilla]

falco's SH nair always murders me from under platforms same goes for his back air. battlefield actually isn't as horrible for falco as you all make it seem. he has a decent juggle game once he gets the opponent up which you'll probably be doing anyway because of lasers. platforms don't exactly HURT him, they just give you another mediocre option for approaching.

 

[zeldspazz]

falco's SH nair always murders me from under platforms same goes for his back air. battlefield actually isn't as horrible for falco as you all make it seem. he has a decent juggle game once he gets the opponent up which you'll probably be doing anyway because of lasers. platforms don't exactly HURT him, they just give you another mediocre option for approaching.

*Sigh* If you had read back a couple of posts, i explained this already lol. I said:

1) It doesnt advantage or disadvantage Falco extremely to 1 side.
2) This easily Zelda's best neutral, hell maybe even best stage besides Luigis.

So, I wasnt saying its a bad Falco stage, Im saying its an average Falco stage and excellent Zelda stage.

So, giving this, Zelda has the stage advantage.

 

[Reizilla]

*Sigh* If you had read back a couple of posts, i explained this already lol. I said:

1) It doesnt advantage or disadvantage Falco extremely to 1 side.
2) This easily Zelda's best neutral, hell maybe even best stage besides Luigis.

So, I wasnt saying its a bad Falco stage, Im saying its an average Falco stage and excellent Zelda stage.

So, giving this, Zelda has the stage advantage.

Ah, sorry, my bad. I clicked first new post and didn't realize that it skipped a few pages. Why is it so good for Zelda though? I don't see how it could be better than Castle Siege, for this match-up at least. And I'd argue that this is a more-than-above average stage for Falco. Yoshi's, to me, seems like the best neutral to go against Falco here, unless PS1 or Lylat are Neutral, but those are probably striked for sure anyway, because of the sometimes-laser-blocking platform and the uneven ground.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I'm not going to disagree. I know from experience that Zelda can, in fact, **** on platforms. Very hardly too, I might add. But it's just... Falco can make things seem a lot less simple when he can SH-Instant Side+B (so it ends laglessly) into an aerial when he was all the way across the stage.

Controlling Battlefield isn't the easiest thing against Falco is all I'm saying. It's certainly a better choice of a stage for a powerhouse of priority like Zelda, who simply needs to keep an opponent in range to own them. So yeah, there's just a lot of things Falco can do on that stage that make him a terror. Hopefully a Zelda keeps an eye out for most of it so they don't fall into any setups on the platforms.

 

[zeldspazz]

Ah, sorry, my bad. I clicked first new post and didn't realize that it skipped a few pages. Why is it so good for Zelda though? I don't see how it could be better than Castle Siege, for this match-up at least. And I'd argue that this is a more-than-above average stage for Falco. Yoshi's, to me, seems like the best neutral to go against Falco here, unless PS1 or Lylat are Neutral, but those are probably striked for sure anyway, because of the sometimes-laser-blocking platform and the uneven ground.

Its ok, I understand Its a great Zelda stage for a lot of reasons, but Im rushed right now cus Im leaving in a little bit so Im sure if you skim trough the thread and search the OP you'll find your answers to why its so good. And also, I tihnk Castle Siege is better in this matchup, Battlefield is just an excellent Zelda stage, and always available, which is why its almost always a top pick.

I'm not going to disagree. I know from experience that Zelda can, in fact, **** on platforms. Very hardly too, I might add. But it's just... Falco can make things seem a lot less simple when he can SH-Instant Side+B (so it ends laglessly) into an aerial when he was all the way across the stage.

Controlling Battlefield isn't the easiest thing against Falco is all I'm saying. It's certainly a better choice of a stage for a powerhouse of priority like Zelda, who simply needs to keep an opponent in range to own them. So yeah, there's just a lot of things Falco can do on that stage that make him a terror. Hopefully a Zelda keeps an eye out for most of it so they don't fall into any setups on the platforms.

Yes I see what you mean. I as I said above, I dont think its the absolute best against Falco, just in like the top5 at least.

 

[Darky-Sama]

So, what's the final?

1st) Brinstar
2nd) Castle Siege
3rd) Battlefield

Right?

 

[zeldspazz]

I was thinking adding lylat in there in between Castle Siege and Battlefield, but other than that Im thinking thats it. Onto Peach after I update the OP later :D

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I was thinking adding lylat in there in between Castle Siege and Battlefield, but other than that Im thinking thats it. Onto Peach after I update the OP later :D

I don't know about that.

Lylat's a worse stage for falco
but it's also worse for zelda.

I prefer battlefield over lylat.

 

[zeldspazz]

I don't know about that.

Lylat's a worse stage for falco
but it's also worse for zelda.

I prefer battlefield over lylat.

Other than recovering are there any ways its really bad for her?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Other than recovering are there any ways its really bad for her?

it's VERY bad for recovering, but, other than that, just a relatively high ceiling, especially if you're on a part sloping down.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

The layout also doesn't help her as much as that of BF. It's still not a bad layout or anything, just not as good as some other stages'.

 

[Darky-Sama]

I have to agree with them. Lylat isn't exactly a Zelda Friendly stage. You'd be better off taking him to Halberd than Lylat. Luigi's Mansion is a great stage for countering Falco with Zelda, but... well, it's Luigi's Mansion. Most likely, it'll get banned just as quickly as Japes or Rainbow Cruise.

Also, Peach. I can help with that match-up!

Peach is one of my three primary mains. haha.

 

[zeldspazz]

Ok so no Lylat, Ill write the summaries after I do my chores, but Ill update the OP now and you guys can start discussing Peach

Edit: Btw, Lylat and Battlefield have almost the exact same vertical blast zone distance, except for Battlefield has that extra high platforms.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Ok so no Lylat, Ill write the summaries after I do my chores, but Ill update the OP now and you guys can start discussing Peach

Edit: Btw, Lylat and Battlefield have almost the exact same vertical blast zone distance, except for Battlefield has that extra high platforms.

battlefield also never dips down

 

[mountain_tiger]

Peach can be a tough character to counterpick since not many stages are hugely to her advantage or disadvantage. However, when playing against her, I highly recommend NOT going on Battlefield, Lylat Cruise or Jungle Japes.

Final Destination works pretty well, since without platforms Peach loses out more than Zelda does IMO.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Distant planet and corneria when they aren't banned have always been really kind to me in this matchup.


otherwise...... brinstar or castle seige?

 

[KayLo!]

Distant planet and corneria when they aren't banned have always been really kind to me in this matchup.

Those are never not banned, lol.

Castle Siege is a good choice. Slants/cramped space in the first transformation to limit her floating and turnip pulling. Outcamp her in the second transformation. Third transformation tilts, which can mess up her float spacing and possibly her recovery if she's forced to recover level to or below level to the stage.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Those are never not banned, lol.

Castle Siege is a good choice. Slants/cramped space in the first transformation to limit her floating and turnip pulling. Outcamp her in the second transformation. Third transformation tilts, which can mess up her float spacing and possibly her recovery if she's forced to recover level to or below level to the stage.

Corneria is fantastic for the matchup though, really.

I played a local tourney or two that allowed it but made wall infinites illegal

 

[KayLo!]

Oh, I meant tournament-banned. I know the MW keeps a lot of stages legal, so maybe they have Corneria on..... but Distant Planet? Eeeeeeee. I dunno, in my experience, I've never been to a tourney with Corneria or DP being legal.

Too lazy to check if they're on the OP's list, though.

 

[DTP]

Just saying I agree with all three of these quotes lol

Peach can be a tough character to counterpick since not many stages are hugely to her advantage or disadvantage. However, when playing against her, I highly recommend NOT going on Battlefield, Lylat Cruise or Jungle Japes.

Final Destination works pretty well, since without platforms Peach loses out more than Zelda does IMO.

Distant planet and corneria when they aren't banned have always been really kind to me in this matchup.


otherwise...... brinstar or castle seige?

When I used Zelda I'd cp Distant Planet all the time and camp. It was too good, but gay.
Brinstar is a good stage for Peach as well, but I think it's gives Zelda more of an advantage here.

But, with Peach, she can attack from under the stage so you'll have to watch out for that, and the lava will save her a lot if the Peach knows how to play the stage.

When the lava is at it's highest try to catch Peach on the top platform for the early kill, but she may just float away.

Zelda has to be careful with her recovery here. If you become predictable you can easily be edge guarded and fall to your death, assuming the lava doesn't come into play and assuming you're too low to simply up b through the stage to safety.

Oh and be careful not to get uair juggled by Peach here. If you are at low percents and on the top platform then she might be able to pull off 3-4 uairs

Those are never not banned, lol.

Castle Siege is a good choice. Slants/cramped space in the first transformation to limit her floating and turnip pulling. Outcamp her in the second transformation. Third transformation tilts, which can mess up her float spacing and possibly her recovery if she's forced to recover level to or below level to the stage.

I completely agree with this, but any good peach won't really get screwed over with the 3rd transformation, recovery wise. But castle Siege seems like one of the best choices for Zelda imo

 

[zeldspazz]

@DTP

Im not sure about Brinstar, one of my friends did some nasty **** below that stage that totally threw me off O.O

 

[Darky-Sama]

@DTP

Im not sure about Brinstar, one of my friends did some nasty **** below that stage that totally threw me off O.O

Okay, since I was in a recent discussion of stages that Peach should counterpick against Zelda, I'll just state them so we can kick them out of the way.


-Battlefield
-Delfino Plaza
-Battleship Halberd
-Jungle Japes
-Norfair
-Pokemon Stadium
-Brinstar
-Rainbow Cruise

Those are all natural counterpick stages for a Peach main where she can wreck Zelda pretty easily. Due to her ability to use flat stages and high air space to her advantage, she can easily control those stages.

I would recommend picking a stage like Lylat Cruise, to be completely honest. Where it seems like it would be a good stage for Peach due to platforms, it's constant movement and uneven terrain eliminates a major factor to Peach's metagame: her "Ground-hovering". Stages that don't support a flat area makes gliding impossible and will cancel it as soon as she activates it on the ground. With that gone from her list of strategies, you don't have to worry about things at low percents like...

Ground Hovering -> Bair -> Cancel -> Repeat
Ground Hovering -> Bair -> Cancel -> Grab
Ground Hovering -> Bair -> Cancel -> Smash
Ground Hovering -> Bair -> Cancel -> Forward Tilt
Ground Hovering -> Dair -> Cancel -> Bair


Where Final Destination allows her to do it as well, it forces Peach to approach Zelda in the most predictable ways possible. Which makes things horribly difficult for her since Zelda still maintains the range. The same goes for Smashville, it is a good stage for Peach, but not horrible for Zelda either.

Yoshi's Island somewhat 50:50 for Peach. Where it does have an imbalanced ground, the stage design makes it easy for Peach to punish off stage. It does have a platform as well - - one that is constantly moving at an angle- - so it can be pretty decent for Peach to punish characters on.


So yeah, picking a good stage for Zelda to go against Peach on isn't easy. Anyone have any other ideas?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

oh.... and BTW zeldas . . . don't take peach to luigi's mansion.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Luigi's Mansion isn't horrible for Zelda though. At least Zelda can safely use Din's Fire without it getting negated by the stages four support pillars. But it does make Peach's hitboxes linger even longer.

Personally, I thought that stage was decent for Zelda if she can stay inside of the stage near the bottom. It restricts Peach's airgame and usually forces her to focus more on the ground - - and Peach? Ground game? Lololol.

Zelda's ground game dominates Peach's. If you want to limit Peach's air game, that would be your best bet.

Edit:
I'd say Luigi's Mansion is 60:40 Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

the way peach's air-game works, she's not overly restricted by the ceilings.

also, the ceilings destroy vertical KOs and peach is a horizontal KOer.

I definitely don't feel advantaged on that stage against peach.

 

[Darky-Sama]

the way peach's air-game works, she's not overly restricted by the ceilings.

also, the ceilings destroy vertical KOs and peach is a horizontal KOer.

I definitely don't feel advantaged on that stage against peach.

Not necessarily. Peach's highest kill potential relies in her sweetspotted upsmash. Which kills at percents low as 75%, I believe it is. Luigi's Mansion provides both Horizontal and Vertical range, which can make it difficult for her to get a kill in.

I can't speak for anyone else, but as a Peach mainer, I don't really see how that's one of her better stages. o__O;

But I do take back what I said about the ceiling on the lower portion of the stage going against her. Yes, it forces her to air approach on the same level as Zelda's ground game, but considering the range of her forward air, she can space and pressure Zelda around with her aerials. Once she gets someone pressured and they try to shield or spot dodge, she can shield poke or catch someone inside of her DAIR, then follow up to her liking.


The problem for Peach is...
Her two main forms of horizontal killing moves are:

1.) Forward Smash
-Frying Pan
-Tennis Racket
-Golf Club

Which she's not guaranteed to rip out the one she needs in order to get a horizontal kill, since they all send opponents in a different direction.

2.) Forward Air
Possibly the most reliable kill move on any stage once you've gotten them pressured to an edge. Just glide off the stage and **** their recovery.


Others are Back Air and Neutral Air, but they're both situational and best used if you sweet spot them with a tech chase off the stage. But Zelda sorta has her out maneuvered in the sense of kill potential.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

words

the point here is:
Zelda normally chooses the stage to couterpick her foe and throw them off of their game.

Peach is QUITE capable of playing the stage without really being hampered.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Actually, Darky-Sama, pro Peaches don't tend to float at ground level much. Most of the time they spend floating is usually at a level slightly above their opponent's head, and just out of their USmash range, since well-spaced Dairs beat out most USmashes (most, not all).

And although Peach's ground game is nowhere near as good as her air game, I wouldn't say that her ground game is 'LOL' or that Zelda 'dominates' her on the ground. She has an advantage at ground level, yes, but not a massive advantage. Peach ground attack are, in general, faster than Zelda's. Peach's slap, FTilt and DSmash are all faster than all of Zelda's moves bar DSmash, and IIRC Peach's slap still outspeeds that and FTilt and slap outrange it. Peach is also able to SDI Zelda's USmash (though that's still no easy task), though it still sends her in the air above you (which is generally where you want her). Oh, and also Peach's grab game is better than Zelda's in every way except that Zelda's grab has more range.

Just making sure we don't underestimate Peach's abilities here. Oh, and definitely don't go to Lylat Cruise. The small benefits you get from a different approach to floating isn't worth the potential risk of being gimped by the stage moving. Plus if you're on a platform and she's under you she can USmash and kill you at 90%.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Luigi's mansion shouldn't be the first choice for a counterpick. Even the fact that we're actually talking whether it notably hampers Peach's game or not means there're better choices, Castle siege for example. I'll not go into more detail as KayLo! already explained its advantages. Even with the third transform possibly screwing Zelda over and giving peach edgeguard chances it's still better for us than it's for her.

Otherwise both Final destination and Smashville would be safe choices. They don't exactly help Peach and let you concentrate purely on your spacing and dealing with her turnips. Otherwise there's not much else to say about them really. I personally would choose SV as it's slightly easier stage to recover on and even though it's extremely rare there's still a very small chance that Zelda could do something useful with the moving platform.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Actually, Darky-Sama, pro Peaches don't tend to float at ground level much. Most of the time they spend floating is usually at a level slightly above their opponent's head, and just out of their USmash range, since well-spaced Dairs beat out most USmashes (most, not all).

But since Zelda's Usmash isn't one of them that she beats . . . yeah, The ceilings don't get in her way.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Mountain Tiger, I was simply differentiating how Peach's low-ground gliding can cause her to easily follow up whatever aerial she does with a Float Canceled ground attack. I'm in no way saying that's what all Peach users do, since it's a very unique play style, to say the least. I've only seen a handful of people besides myself that use it on a regular basis.


Just to clear up some things I recently posted that may have caused confusion, due to my lack of sleep and horrific wording:

[-] Peach is an aerial character, not a ground-based character. Me stressing out about the 'ground gliding' should be overlooked or ignored because it's obviously not going to be put to good use by your average Peach user. Nor do I see how it could really do well against a Zelda. A Falco or Link maybe, but it was merely stated as a "Simply watch out for this" sort of thing.

[-] Peach's ground game is not garbage. I actually find it as one of the best, to be honest.
'Nuff said.

[-] Mountain Tiger has a point. Lylat would actually do more damage to Zelda that it would a Peach, I completely disregarded the fact that the platforms were within upsmash range. It does damage Peach's glidetossing to an extent, but that's also a horrible stage for Zelda's recovery since the stage is constantly swaying at an angle.

[-] Luigi's Mansion would be good for Zelda. Peach can control the stage so long as she keeps Zelda out of the center portion, but that can be fairly difficult. I always seen Luigi's Mansion being a Zelda user's primary counterpick against most of the roster though. Mainly because the ceiling (rather they tech or not) can help Zelda keep them nearby long enough to rack up damage.

 

[mountain_tiger]

OK, Darky-Sama, I see what you're getting at. Ground floating can be useful, but it's way easier ot knock her out of it that way, so you have to be careful.

As for Luigi's Mansion... I'm not sure how good that would be. But if you do go there, here are two things to be aware of:

1) The low platforms on the ground storey allow Peach to get shoulder sweetspot USmashes, and that's really, really bad. Of course, Zelda can USmash Peach there as well.

2) She'll probably be using the pillars a lot because they refresh stale moves. Again, Zelda can do this too, but stale move negation doesn't really affect Zelda as much because she has more viable kill options than Peach does.

But still, if it's legal, then it might be worth trying out. In terms of neutrals, Final Destination is definitely your best bet. Smashville is OK as well.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

[-] Luigi's Mansion would be good for Zelda. Peach can control the stage so long as she keeps Zelda out of the center portion, but that can be fairly difficult. I always seen Luigi's Mansion being a Zelda user's primary counterpick against most of the roster though. Mainly because the ceiling (rather they tech or not) can help Zelda keep them nearby long enough to rack up damage.

it normally IS our go to counterpick.

But I've played enough peaches to know, we DEFINITELY have much better counterpick options than here.

 

[Darky-Sama]

it normally IS our go to counterpick.

But I've played enough peaches to know, we DEFINITELY have much better counterpick options than here.

Again, I won't deny that. Peach doesn't really make Zelda too safe on any stage though. At least on Luigi's Mansion, you can limit the main factor of her metagame to at least some extent. Everywhere else seems to be a bit biased towards Peach in this match-up from my point of view.


Edit: My bad, didn't see your new post, Mountain.

So, discussion is now on how Zelda can put Final Destination and Smashville to use.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Just to clear up some things I recently posted that may have caused confusion, due to my lack of sleep and horrific wording:

I've already reserved the spot of the one posting stuff in the form no-one can understand what I'm talking about late at night instead of sleeping. Back off! (jkjk)

You have valid points but I still disagree about choosing LM, mostly because of this:

we DEFINITELY have much better counterpick options than here.

It's one of Zelda's best stages but still isn't the best possible choice for this particular matchup.

 

[Kataefi]

What about halberd? DI up and you shouldn't have recovery problems... unless it's the sweetspot tennis racket which should hit rarely.

Very low ceiling, larger horizontal blastzones (iirc), a few slants, a nice singuler platform. I think it's the best stage to take her to out of a bad bunch.

Yes she can shark here... but really? With that 2nd jump and a punishable up+b on landing, you can wait out her 3 second float by camping the higher platform and force her to use one of these options. Dtilt will spike her if she's positioned too close to Zelda's leg.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Luigi's Mansion one of those strange phenomena where:
-yes it's a stage that normally is bad for Peach
-yes it's a stage that normally is good for Zelda

however, when you talk about it in this specific matchup, the places it normally limits peach aren't huge deals, and the places that it normally benefits Zelda aren't as large as they often are.









edit: I treally don't like Halberd. And peach is one of the characters I think uses it much better than us.

 

[mountain_tiger]

What about halberd? DI up and you shouldn't have recovery problems... unless it's the sweetspot tennis racket which should hit rarely.

That applies to many stages, surely? Though if you need to use her up B you're still in trouble...

Very low ceiling, larger horizontal blastzones (iirc), a few slants, a nice singuler platform. I think it's the best stage to take her to out of a bad bunch.

Just so long as you're not on said singular platform. USmash can hit through that, and then you die at 60 or 70%, which is pretty embarassing. And I don't think the horizontal blast zones are any bigger than normal.

Plus Peach can float under the big platform at the bottom and Uair you through it. Zelda can do this too, but it's much riskier for Zelda and is harder to hit with because it's slower.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Peach can take advantage of Halberd much more than Zelda can.


Sharking is sorta 'meh'... because Zelda can spike her while she's attempting to do it. If a Peach is going to attempt that (as good as it is, it's far too risky), then hey, Zelda could probably turn the match into her favor if she plays her cards right.

I don't think Peach's up smash reaches through the center portion of the stage though, not until you're actually on the ship itself (Correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't just go into a match and check it). But that still doesn't do much harm to her since she still has an up tilt.

The same factors that apply on all other stages are still in effect on this stage too.

Limiting Peach's playstyle and throwing her off? On Halberd, not really hurting her.
Benefiting Zelda? Not too much at all besides the stage size.

Halberd isn't really a good counterpick, IMO.