This Mage's Stages! Counterpick Thread, Discussing: Diddy!

[Kataefi]

Peach can't usmash the platform. She can only do this at the very high point on both slants on the ground when the stage is flying, which is very insignicant.

And as for sharking... I'd wait out peach's float by camping the higher platforms or attempting to dtilt spiker her head if it's popping up. Her sharking game isn't as potent as MK's or Jigglupuff's imo on this stage as she'll either be in a position to be dtilt spiked or Dsmash'd or she can be 'waited out' so that she's forced to use her second jump or recovery or go back to the ledge.

edit: everyone types faster than me!

but pretty much what darky said - except I feel early usmash kills from zelda and later Fair kills from peach make this an okay stage. There could be better options though.

 

[Darky-Sama]

On Halberd, Zelda's all ranging upsmash guarantees a kill much easier than Peach's "Hey, I'm not going to send opponents straight up to their death unless you sweetspot me" up smash.

Still, that's just like other stages though. The platforms just don't play a large role in setting Zelda up for a much easier kill (via upsmash). I still see the stage as a bigger help for Peach though, rather than doing her harm.

 

[mountain_tiger]

So I turned on Brawl to check if USmash does hit through the platform. It turns out that it doesn't hit when it's moving unless you space perfectly down to the last inch (Zelda has to be right on the edge). However, on the stationary part of Halberd, USmash WILL hit through the platform, regardless of where on the platform Zelda is standing.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Yeah, that's what I thought it was.

Up tilt still hits through both platforms regardless, correct?

 

[mountain_tiger]

Yeah, that's what I thought it was.

Up tilt still hits through both platforms regardless, correct?

You mean Peach's UTilt, right? Because that hits through practically every platform in the game. As for Zelda's... not sure.

 

[Darky-Sama]

You mean Peach's UTilt, right? Because that hits through practically every platform in the game. As for Zelda's... not sure.

Yes, Peach's.
I know her up tilt goes through everything the up smash can. But with it's added range, can it actually damage through the platform that her up smash can't reach? By that, meaning the platform on Halberd.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Yes. Indeed it can. UTilt is **** regarding platforms. If you use UTilt to hit someone when they're on the edge, it's a win-win scenario. If it hits, then they take 13% damage and get thrown upwards above Peach (which is usually where Peach wants them to be). If they shield, then they get pushed off for a free FSmash.

This along with other platform hijinks Peach can perform is why I personally think Final Destination is a good stage to pick.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Yeah, Final Destination or Luigi's Mansion are still my top two picks.

Final Destination doesn't give Peach any platform advantages, but it does allow her the air space she needs to play her overall metagame properly.

Luigi's Mansion can limit Peach's air game somewhat, but it's not doing much to really wreck her either.

Which is why I love Peach. Most counterpicks really don't hurt her all that much. It just depends if the opponent can put the stage to use better than she can.

 

[zeldspazz]

Guys Im going to be very very busy the next couple days, so if you come to a decision about Peach in that time Im sorry if I cant update the OP for a bit. Although, it seems that there is some great discussion going on on, so Im hoping Ill be able to hop in when I have time to analyze the stages.

Would anyone like to volunteer to write the summaries for the Falco stages?? Its would be very helpful

 

[zeldspazz]

Sorry for double post.....

Its been a while lol. Anyone read my above post and would like to volunteer??

 

[zeldspazz]

Triple post ftw?

This place (and that means like every metagame thread) has been preeeetty sloow lately o___o

Lol finally not lazy and finished the Falco Summary. I got lazy at the end as you can see


Start discussing GaW!

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Lol finally not lazy and finished the Falco Summary. I got lazy at the end as you can see

Nice worst stages summary

G&W: Camping obviously doesn't work against him, so you might want to go somewhere where he can't just stall all day and force you to approach. He also beats us in a "fair fight", so it would be a good idea to avoid stages that are just plain flat and open. So, no to Final destination and Smashville.

I'd say the worst options would be stages that hinder recoveries. G&W will always be able to make it back to the stage anyway and Zelda's recovery is punishable enough as is. These stages would include Lylat, Yoshi's, Halberd, Delfino and Pokemon stadium 2 to some extend. Another place to avoid would be Rainbow cruise (he has more maneuverability and better air game).

I personally like BF (as always) but Brinstar might be a good choise. Small boundaries could help you achieve some early KOs and make bucket braking less effective. Platforms are helpful and slimy pillars stop his sausages (a small advantage) and prolong Zelda's attacks. The problem is that he can punish Zelda's recovery rather well there though... maybe even with Usmash.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Keep in mind during this discussion;

Game and Watch has an easier time killing than Zelda. Smaller stages can result in you being killed at percents low as 80%, and larger stages can result in you having a difficult time killing G&W.

With that being said:


Don't take him to Rainbow Cruise. Not only because of the common knowledge of Zelda on Rainbow Cruise, but G&W has a stupid down tilt lock on majority of the roster against the side of the ship. Easy way to get about 250% in through stalling with a finishing Smash before the ship even has time to crash.

Battlefield is a decent stage, but it doesn't provide Zelda much of the space she needs. She'll have an easy time KOing a light character like G&W here, but the same applies for Zelda. Plus, you have to remember that he can jump across the stage with a back air in two jumps to pressure Zelda where ever he wants her to go.

Final Destination would probably be your best bet against G&W for a neutral, or possibly Smashville. It's a larger stage, so it has both it's pros and cons; but at least it can give you the time to retaliate without G&W being up in your face constantly with (potentially fatal) smash attacks. The main problem, is camping doesn't work well on him, and Din's Fire is close to useless since he has the Bucket. That, and he can also use the Bucket Break (judging that the opponent uses it properly), which also proves as a problem.

It's a pretty difficult decision for those stages.

 

[zeldspazz]

I really dont think we should be thinking about "camping" in this matchup at all, because neither of them can camp lol. I see both your points though, Im still stuck on what my opinion is/

 

[MrEh]

Gdub can actually camp Zelda. When you're that slow, you can get camped by almost anyone.

 

[zeldspazz]

Camp with what >_>

 

[MrEh]

Camp with what >_>

What do you mean "with what?"

 

[zeldspazz]

Like what strategies, moves, etc can he camp with. I never fight GaW so I dont know.

 

[MrEh]

Like what strategies, moves, etc can he camp with. I never fight GaW so I dont know.

Bair, run away, repeat.

He can camp with aerials and there's not much Zelda can do about it. That goes double on a stage like Norfair, if it's legal in your area. (it might be)

Zelda is just too slow and has nothing that instills fear in Game and Watch. What's she gonna do? Throw out Din's? Try to kick him? Game and Watch has no need to approach Zelda at all, and he can just shut down her approaches with his outrageous aerials. If Game and Watch plays campy, then Zelda is screwed even harder then she is normally. Zelda is very susceptible to camping since she's slow, her moveset is terrible for approaching, and she has no way to camp back.

 

[zeldspazz]

Bair, run away, repeat.

He can camp with aerials and there's not much Zelda can do about it. That goes double on a stage like Norfair, if it's legal in your area. (it might be)

Zelda is just too slow and has nothing that instills fear in Game and Watch. What's she gonna do? Throw out Din's? Try to kick him? Game and Watch has no need to approach Zelda at all, and he can just shut down her approaches with his outrageous aerials. If Game and Watch plays campy, then Zelda is screwed even harder then she is normally. Zelda is very susceptible to camping since she's slow, her moveset is terrible for approaching, and she has no way to camp back.

Ok, so now what stage do you think is best, we are discussing CP now not the MU lol. Thanks though, whenever I tihnk camping I first thing "projectile" which isnt true :/

 

[MrEh]

Ok, so now what stage do you think is best, we are discussing CP now not the MU lol.

Matchups affect the counterpick. Discussing one means you have to discuss the other.

That being said, Zelda is utterly screwed no matter what stage you take him to. (barring extreme luck on WarioWare or something) This is not me being pessimistic, this is a fact. Zelda just does piss poor against Game and Watch, and the presence of platforms honestly doesn't change much of anything.

My advice is just to take him to your favorite neutral. Honestly, it doesn't matter. I would just take him to where you're most comfortable at.

If Norfair is legal in your area, ban that stage. That stage 100% aircamping and ledges; two areas where Zelda utterly fails at, but where Game and Watch thrives. Banning Norfair is important not because it will help you win (when the matchup is that unfair, you're still pretty screwed), but because it decreases the chances of you getting 3 stocked. That would be a pretty humiliating way to go down, no matter how lopsided the matchup is.

 

[zeldspazz]

Matchups affect the counterpick. Discussing one means you have to discuss the other.

That being said, Zelda is utterly screwed no matter what stage you take him to. (barring extreme luck on WarioWare or something) This is not me being pessimistic, this is a fact. Zelda just does piss poor against Game and Watch, and the presence of platforms honestly doesn't change much of anything.

My advice is just to take him to your favorite neutral. Honestly, it doesn't matter. I would just take him to where you're most comfortable at.

If Norfair is legal in your area, ban that stage. That stage 100% aircamping and ledges; two areas where Zelda utterly fails at, but where Game and Watch thrives. Banning Norfair is important not because it will help you win (when the matchup is that lopsided, you;'re still pretty screwed), but because it decreases the chances of you getting 3 stocked. Which will be a humiliating way to go down.

*Points to Battlefield*

That was quick >_> I understand though, and I would never go Zelda vs. GaW even in friendlies. I agree with Norfair, sounds exactly like the MK matchup honestly.

 

[MrEh]

*Points to Battlefield*

If that's your favorite stage, then I suggest you take him there. Like I said, it doesn't make much of a difference. Just pick the place where you want to die.

I agree with Norfair, sounds exactly like the MK matchup honestly.

Except MK is even worse for Zelda then Game and Watch is.

 

[zeldspazz]

Just pick the place where you want to die

How morbid o_____o

 

[MrEh]

How morbid o_____o

That's how Zelda fares at the top.

Even though her matchups are really bad, usually a good neutral choice can soften the blow. However, in some cases, the matchup is just so lopsided that it doesn't make a difference.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Yeah, MrEh is right. Just take them where ever you feel most comfortable at and hope that brawl's unruly physics allow you to punish him in some way or another. Just play defensively and try to punish.

lolpunishingG&WwithZelda.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

My thoughts on Zelda and rainbow cruise.

You said it your self platforms are here friend 95% of that stage is platforms. Increased chance of dtilt>bair. stage makes it harder for jectile whores to ***** jectiles. Zelda can force approaches because of Din's. The ship is extremely small which benefits Zelda. The pendelum has a type of ceiling which means up smash *****. Even if they tech it there's limited places for them to go. Utilt at the top of the stage LoL. Bairs on the edges off the stage.

You may say something about her recovery but i've only had trouble recovering at the pendelum or going somewhere before the stage appears.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

on RC:

Zelda has to platform.... something she's not good at. She'll occasionally have to use farore's and make herself very vulnerable.


And her air game is wretched against most characters.

Other than stopping ICs from grabbing her, or Olimar from camping, I can't see much of a reason to go here.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

on RC:

Zelda has to platform.... something she's not good at. She'll occasionally have to use farore's and make herself very vulnerable.


And her air game is wretched against most characters.

Other than stopping ICs from grabbing her, or Olimar from camping, I can't see much of a reason to go here.

Zelda has to platform? Give me one stage where Zelda's recovery isn't vulnerable.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

She does better there than some other characters... Bowser for example suffers more from the stage than she does. However, what Sonic said is true. Her air game is absolutely horrible when compared to most of the cast and that's where the focus will be on RC.

Also, about her recovery being vulnerable: it's bad enough on the stages where she can sweetspot the ledges, but on RC she doesn't have that kind of luxury. She's also occasionally forced to teleport straight up and then slowly float down on some platform (that might also disappear before she can reach it) which makes her sitting duck to any and every move in the game.

I can see why you think it's a good counterpick, but in my opinion the cons heavily outweight the pros.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

She does better there than some other characters... Bowser for example suffers more from the stage than she does. However, what Sonic said is true. Her air game is absolutely horrible when compared to most of the cast and that's where the focus will be on RC.

Also, about her recovery being vulnerable: it's bad enough on the stages where she can sweetspot the ledges, but on RC she doesn't have that kind of luxury. She's also occasionally forced to teleport straight up and then slowly float down on some platform (that might also disappear before she can reach it) which makes her sitting duck to any and every move in the game.

I can see why you think it's a good counterpick, but in my opinion the cons heavily outweight the pros.

I disagree that the stage is focused on a characters air game. There's 3 ledges that you can sweet spot on that stage but the majority of the time you won't get hit at an angel for that to even be a factor. I also noted the fact about her recovery which is going to get punished on the majority of stages and there's still chances of you getting gimped also. There a few characters who's recovery won't be punished on this stage. But it's a legit CP IMO.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I disagree that the stage is focused on a characters air game.

you'd be wrong

There's 3 ledges that you can sweet spot on that stage but the majority of the time you won't get hit at an angel for that to even be a factor.

You'll have to do it enough. Obviously not ALL the time or people would 3 stock zelda before one rotation.

I also noted the fact about her recovery which is going to get punished on the majority of stages and there's still chances of you getting gimped also. There a few characters who's recovery won't be punished on this stage. But it's a legit CP IMO.

she has a bad recovery because it's punishable.

On rainbow cruise it's more punishable.

She's bad at aerial dogfights.

Rainbow cruise has you jumping through the air the whole match.




Unless RC heavily counters her foe, it's a no.

 

[zeldspazz]

Actually, I can see where Legendary is coming from. You're not absolutely always always in the air.

I can see it being decent for some matchups. Just not ones like MK lol

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Actually, I can see where Legendary is coming from. You're not absolutely always always in the air.

I can see it being decent for some matchups. Just not ones like MK lol

the point is that you are in the air MORE and Zelda wants to be in the air LESS.

it's not about black and white terms like always and never, it's about more and less pleasant shades of grey.

 

[zeldspazz]

Well if it works for some people then whatever
Anyone got anything more to say on GaW or can we move on?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

you'd be wrong

You'll have to do it enough. Obviously not ALL the time or people would 3 stock zelda before one rotation.




she has a bad recovery because it's punishable.

On rainbow cruise it's more punishable.

She's bad at aerial dogfights.

Rainbow cruise has you jumping through the air the whole match.




Unless RC heavily counters her foe, it's a no.

You have to position your self so that you're in advantageous situations. However the stage suits Zelda very well. Do characters excell at that stage more than Zelda yes. Would i take Mk Wario Snake G&w or there earth bound guys there no. But pretty much any other character I don't mind taking them there.

 

[zeldspazz]

New character coming in a moment....

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

Of the neutrals, I think Battlefield works best against Diddy, for the obvious reasons of platforms and little stage to space nanerz in. Throw in the fact that Zelda's glide toss covers like 2/3 of the bottom area and she's got a fighting chance here.

PS 1 also can work, as long as you avoid getting naneraped on the neutral part the transformations cause the ground to become even and give plenty of places for the nanerz to get stuck and be picked up by Zelda.

Avoid FD like the plague, too much room for Diddy to glide toss space all over your face.

Norfair is Diddy's absolute worst stage AFAIK(and pretty good for Zelda to boot), but it's rarely legal anymore and when it is Diddies ban it right away.

I'd go more in depth but my eyes, they protest their open state. TT_TT

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Counter Pick Rainbow cruise. His ground game is totally wrecked his nanas are only usable on the ship.

@Pie I thought BF was a good diddy stage.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Diddy's UP+B is totally wrecked when he can't grab the ledge, like on rainbow cruise. But his generally better platforming game and more reliable aerials would give me pause to actually CP this stage, though I certainly wouldn't ban it either.