This Mage's Stages! Counterpick Thread, Discussing: Diddy!

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

BF doesn't really help Zelda a ****ton, but imo, sticking to fairly neutral stages is always better. She doesn't do well on stages with a lot of gimpy shenanigans, and BF's platforms + small size limit Falco's camp game somewhat. Keeps him close, so he can't run away to reset his laser spam as easily as he could on a larger stage.... and Zelda can take advantage of the platforms if he's above her, as usual.

I might also consider Pokemon Stadium 1. There're a lot of places where you could hide from his laser spam during transformations, and as far as I can see, he doesn't gain many tricks from the stage. But.... I've never played Falco there, so that's up for discussion. Recovery can be a headache there as well.

How do the platforms stop the laser camping?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Mars, I've never seen a tournament where jab locking is banned.

Umm... I think this was supposed to be directed at me seeing that I was the one tho say that jab lock is often banned.

I've seen some tournies announced around here (SWF) to have jab lock banned if the tourney accepted stages that make it notably easier to achieve and it was limited in many of the few tournies ever held here in Finland (those that I could not enter for various reasons).

I'll admit I was wrong if you say that it's usually not banned, though. I think that you know the tourney scene there much better than I do.

 

[KayLo!]

How do the platforms stop the laser camping?

They don't. Laser spam will always be a problem no matter which stage you choose.

But it's better than being on a relatively flat stage.

EDIT: @HSS: Fixed. I've been getting you and Mars mixed up for a while now..... your avatars look really similar to me for some reason, lol. Usually I catch myself before I post, but I guess I failed this time. X.X

But yeah, I've never been to a tourney where jab locking is banned.... I don't think that's the standard, at least not here.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

EDIT: @HSS: Fixed. I've been getting you and Mars mixed up for a while now..... your avatars look really similar to me for some reason, lol. Usually I catch myself before I post, but I guess I failed this time. X.X

Oh come on, it can't be that hard! He's Link and I'm Fierce Deity Link! The difference is like night and day!

I didn't really think that banning jab lock would be standard, just maybe somewhat common. It seems I was wrong. :embarrass

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

They don't. Laser spam will always be a problem no matter which stage you choose.

But it's better than being on a relatively flat stage.

EDIT: @HSS: Fixed. I've been getting you and Mars mixed up for a while now..... your avatars look really similar to me for some reason, lol. Usually I catch myself before I post, but I guess I failed this time. X.X

But yeah, I've never been to a tourney where jab locking is banned.... I don't think that's the standard, at least not here.

I still don't get what benefits you get beside Zelda being good on stages with platforms or how it somewhat effects falco's camping game. But I'll still think i'd rather go Yoshi's or Lylat for the neutral.

 

[KayLo!]

I still don't get what benefits you get beside Zelda being good on stages with platforms or how it somewhat effects falco's camping game. But I'll still think i'd rather go Yoshi's or Lylat for the neutral.

Those're both.... considerable benefits. @.@

But, whatevs, just my 2 cents. Take him to Yoshi's if you want. *shrug*

 

[zeldspazz]

Wow, conversations really shift here :D

Good Stages:

Castle Siege:4
Battlefield: 4
Luigis: 1
Lylat: 3
Smashville: 1
Pokemon Stadium 1: 1
Yoshi's Island: 1


Bad Stages:

FD: 4
Jungle Japes: 3

Thats what I got right now for tallies

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Those're both.... considerable benefits. @.@

But, whatevs, just my 2 cents. Take him to Yoshi's if you want. *shrug*

I'm just asking how it somewhat effects his camping game because it doesn't make sense to me.

 

[zeldspazz]

Can his lazers go through the platform at Yoshi's if it's slanted?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Jab locks are often banned or limited, at least in some areas.

Even though I personally don't like playing on Mansion one bit, the advantages it gives to Zelda in most matchups are pretty clear. She doesn't have to approach, she can outcamp people with Din and D-smash becomes extremely deadly finisher. The stage also offers more than plenty setups for LKs and Uairs. Her recovery is enhanced as well (from a certain viewpoint) as the side blastzones are so close FW won't be as needed as much as in many other stages.

Those are what I can come up with right away.

add the fact that it severely limits air games due to it's restrictive set-up and you've got most of it.

 

[zeldspazz]

Ok, I have finished the Marth discussion in the OP, any suggestions/comments to change? Also, Im hoping to wrap up Falco tomorrow.

And also, just to let you know, we are going to do Peach next cus I want to lol Then we can do DDD after Peach Legendary.

Edit: I changed the title to make it sound more professional

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ok, I have finished the Marth discussion in the OP, any suggestions/comments to change? Also, Im hoping to wrap up Falco tomorrow.

And also, just to let you know, we are going to do Peach next cus I want to lol Then we can do DDD after Peach Legendary.

Edit: I changed the title to make it sound more professional

Who cares about peach. But I guess it's cool since d3 is next.

 

[zeldspazz]

Who cares about peach. But I guess it's cool since d3 is next.

I care about Peach I happen to have many friends who main Peach, and its a troublesome matchup for Zelda.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I'm just asking how it somewhat effects his camping game because it doesn't make sense to me.

The platforms don't limit his camping game per se but they give Zelda more options both for avoiding lasers and approaching Falco than a completely flat stage would. Even if most of these options are bad or downright terrible it's still much better than having no options at all. BF is also a small stage so there isn't much space for Falco to run away and therefor also making Zelda have to approach shorter distance every time he resets his spacing.

Can his lazers go through the platform at Yoshi's if it's slanted?

IIRC they can go through the platform if they come from the side that would be the bottom of the platform when it's completely horizontally but not if they approach from the other side (The "top" side). I'm going completely by hazy memories on this one however so take it with a grain of salt.

Edit: I tested it and this is exactly how it goes.

Who cares about peach. But I guess it's cool since d3 is next.

Read the reply above. Since zeldspazz owns this thread that's more than enough reason to discuss Peach next.

 

[M@v]

Falco's 3 worst stages are Brinstar, RC, and lylat. None of them are particularly good for you either though. >_>. Brinstar would probably be your best choice of those 3 if your looking to CP Falco to his bad stages.

I notice Castle Siege is getting support. Its an average stage for Falco, and I really dont see why it helps Zelda. The only part that gives her any advantage would be the second phase since the pillars stop lasers and Zelda can't be cg'd off of the sides...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Falco's 3 worst stages are Brinstar, RC, and lylat. None of them are particularly good for you either though. >_>.

Brinstar isn't bad for us at all.

in fact, I rather like it.

 

[KayLo!]

I notice Castle Siege is getting support. Its an average stage for Falco, and I really dont see why it helps Zelda. The only part that gives her any advantage would be the second phase since the pillars stop lasers and Zelda can't be cg'd off of the sides...

First transformation is small like BF and has slants for avoiding some lasers/lengthening dtilt locks.

Third transformation tilts, which can help us dtilt lock for longer, plus it can possibly screw up your side-b recovery. (Not exactly gimp outright, maybe, but it can still mess with the spacing.) Granted, it can do the same to Zelda, but it doesn't bother me much since I've played on CS enough to get used to it. =3

Second transformation is Din's friendly.

*shrug* I like Siege. But stages are more of a personal choice half the time anyway, which is why I don't really argue about them too hard, lol. Different people prefer different boards.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I care about Peach I happen to have many friends who main Peach, and its a troublesome matchup for Zelda.

Really don't think that match up is bad.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Really don't think that match up is bad.

it is.

not awful, but definitely in peach's favour.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

it is.

not awful, but definitely in peach's favour.

Oh yeah I forgot all my options are shut down when she's holding a turnip......

 

[KayLo!]

Peach's fair > you. I'm not even kidding.

Can someone elaborate on Brinstar vs. Falco? I know it's a bad stage for him, but I think the benefits for Zelda are a little blurry besides the fact that you can use the pillars and that the lava might save you (.........or kill you, on the other hand).

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Peach's fair > you. I'm not even kidding.

Can someone elaborate on Brinstar vs. Falco? I know it's a bad stage for him, but I think the benefits for Zelda are a little blurry besides the fact that you can use the pillars and that the lava might save you (.........or kill you, on the other hand).

uneven terain can work really well for the hitboxes of her smashes.

It's a small stage that really prevents running away/camping.

platforms are nice to us.

multiple peices of desctructible terain can hold out zelda's smashes ar better than they do falco's.

to my knowledge, the uneven terain doesn't do favours for falco's ground game. I don't know that it particularly hurts it either, but it actually HELPS zelda most of the time.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

peach's fair out ranges all of zelda's moves?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

peach's fair out ranges all of zelda's moves?

pretty much, and she can just bait the few moves that DO outrange it.

 

[KayLo!]

Gotcha, thanks, Hedgedawg. I avoid Brinstar like the plague because of Pikachu, but maybe I should actually try it sometime with Zelda. The unevenness makes me feel so.... awkward.... but I guess I'll just have to get used to it. ;-;

@Legendary: Peach's fair is disjointed like none other. A perfectly spaced Zelda fair/bair might outrange it??? (not sure), but we can't exactly spam spaced bairs like she can spam fairs. Also, if she's spacing them correctly, you can't punish her since all of her aerials autocancel and Zelda is way too slow.

 

[zeldspazz]

Brinstar seems ok, I never really gave that stage a chance

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Gotcha, thanks, Hedgedawg. I avoid Brinstar like the plague because of Pikachu, but maybe I should actually try it sometime with Zelda. The unevenness makes me feel so.... awkward.... but I guess I'll just have to get used to it. ;-;

I rarely bust it out so that my oponents don't get a lot of experience there, but it's my favourite little surprise when other stages aren't working for me.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Since the stage isn't flat, it causes Falco's side+b to end with lag. Falco's recovery is going to get owned just as much as Zelda's since it's not a solid stage. Due to the destructible tendons attached to the side platforms, Zelda can roll all the way to the ledge to avoid Falco's lasers (which also causes mild stalement, if I'm correct).

When he does approach, the tendons will help Zelda's smash attacks linger out a bit longer. The only thing to look out for on this stage against Falco would be his smashes and Dair. Since it's a stage with a small ceiling and hardly any horizontal bases, his smash attacks can kill us easily. Dair will most likely be abused considering most Falco users spam that whenever they're forced to move into the air. Either that, or Bair, which I'm sure will be spammed as well due to all the jumping.

Overall, it does wreck Falco's major metagame, but that doesn't necessarily make him helpless. It just forces him to use the rest of his tactical smashes and aerials for an even quicker kill.

Rely on Downsmash to keep Falco spaced from you and Brinstar shouldn't be too bad of a choice for Zelda.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Since it's a stage with a small ceiling and hardly any horizontal bases, his smash attacks can kill us easily.

Shouldn't you guys be the ones more worried about that?

 

[zeldspazz]

K so Brinstar, Castle Siege, and Battlefield seem like the most popular/best stages, which one is the best though? :\ Any input, I kinda wanna wrap Falco up

 

[Darky-Sama]

Shouldn't you guys be the ones more worried about that?

I don't use Falco.
I'm more of a Zelda mainer than I am Falco. lol.

K so Brinstar, Castle Siege, and Battlefield seem like the most popular/best stages, which one is the best though? :\ Any input, I kinda wanna wrap Falco up

I really, really wouldn't recommend Battlefield, but if that's a conclusion the boards came to, then I guess I won't oppose it. Falco can easily wreck on Battlefield though since he has lasers and back air still at his disposal. Not to mention his SH Side+b can cover the entire stage with it's range. Not really a good stage since he can force Zelda onto the platforms where he wants her.

 

[zeldspazz]

I really, really wouldn't recommend Battlefield, but if that's a conclusion the boards came to, then I guess I won't oppose it. Falco can easily wreck on Battlefield though since he has lasers and back air still at his disposal. Not to mention his SH Side+b can cover the entire stage with it's range. Not really a good stage since he can force Zelda onto the platforms where he wants her.

Platforms can cause Falco to have to be more of a mixup with his lazer spam, and Zelda is a major threat on platforms, moreso than Flaco. Overall its a great Zelda stage too, because of it's blastzones, ledges, and platforms, and since it doesnt really benefit or disadvantage Falco, and for the most part we all feel comfortable going to Battlefield, its a nice choice.

Anywayz Im going to brawl, so I might not be on again tonight. Bye people

 

[Darky-Sama]

Platforms can cause Falco to have to be more of a mixup with his lazer spam, and Zelda is a major threat on platforms, moreso than Flaco. Overall its a great Zelda stage too, because of it's blastzones, ledges, and platforms, and since it doesnt really benefit or disadvantage Falco, and for the most part we all feel comfortable going to Battlefield, its a nice choice.

Anywayz Im going to brawl, so I might not be on again tonight. Bye people

I know, which is why I'm not going to oppose it. Battlefield is by far my best stage for any character I use. But Falco's metagame can **** considerably on platforms as well, DAIR bouncing from a platform into whatever follow up attack he sees fitting. The back air is the main thing you have to watch out for. If Zelda is on a platform, his aerial mobility and back air can become a large threat.

I think that's the only move that Zelda needs to take into consideration. Her lightning kick is an easy set-up out of a short hop on that stage, but Falco's back air has a lot of range to go with his quick air time. So meh... if it is in Falco's favor on that stage, I would only say...

45:55 Falco?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't use Falco.
I'm more of a Zelda mainer than I am Falco. lol.

but the point still stands.

 

[Darky-Sama]

Falco's Smashes seem like more of a threat due to range and priority. If he decides to get upsmash happy, he has both the Gatling Combo, or just a regular DACUS. Forward smash isn't as easy to get hit by, but it's possibly one of the strongest smash attacks in the game when it comes to kill potential. KOing Zelda with it wouldn't be too difficult at all is the main thing.

Plus, chaingrab -> spike makes it a threat to most characters on the roster too. Not sure if he'll have an easy time doing that to Zelda, but even if he forces her to air dodge, she could miss a recovery or get edgehogged.

 

[zeldspazz]

Falco's Smashes seem like more of a threat due to range and priority. If he decides to get upsmash happy, he has both the Gatling Combo, or just a regular DACUS. Forward smash isn't as easy to get hit by, but it's possibly one of the strongest smash attacks in the game when it comes to kill potential. KOing Zelda with it wouldn't be too difficult at all is the main thing.

Plus, chaingrab -> spike makes it a threat to most characters on the roster too. Not sure if he'll have an easy time doing that to Zelda, but even if he forces her to air dodge, she could miss a recovery or get edgehogged.

Our fair has some pretty good range too however, and has relatively little startup and cooldown compared to Falcos. Im also pretty sure that Zelda's cant be dthrow grabbed more than 2-3 times cus shes so light and floaty.

Also, pretty much any character with decent kill options doesnt have a relatively easy time KOing Zelda. Its up to the player to play smart and not get hit.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Our fair has some pretty good range too however, and has relatively little startup and cooldown compared to Falcos. Im also pretty sure that Zelda's cant be dthrow grabbed more than 2-3 times cus shes so light and floaty.

Also, pretty much any character with decent kill options doesnt have a relatively easy time KOing Zelda. Its up to the player to play smart and not get hit.

I'd say Zelda's KO potential > Falco's

 

[zeldspazz]

I'd say Zelda's KO potential > Falco's

Yeah me too, but that doesnt mean she doesnt get KOed as easily as she KOs others.

Edit: I didnt realize I hit my 1000th post xD

 

[Darky-Sama]

Fair or Fsmash?

Falco's Fair is pretty horrible. His Fsmash is very good. Battlefield just makes things pretty difficult in the Zelda/Falco match-up, because Falco 'can' force Zelda to get up on the platforms with his horrendous ground control. Then it only comes down to how you can retaliate:


[-] Will you shield and get pushed off the platform into a Fsmash by a short hop aerial? Which is a good Falco users most reliable kill strategy on Battlefield after forcing a character onto a platform with Lasers and side+b.

or...

[-] Can you stay on the ground and force Falco onto the platforms in return? Fairly difficult, but considering the range of the stage, he can't camp but so much on the ground. Perfectly timed smashes or a downtilt would be the best option of getting Falco forced in the air.

 

[zeldspazz]

Sorry, yes I meant Fsmash ^_^

And Im thinking Zelda isnt going to hop on a paltform if Falco is close enough to do a SH aerial.

We were also thinking that although yes, side-b does go almost the whole way across BF, a small stage kinda makes lazer spam less effective, cus then Zelda has less ground to cross to get in range. And, side-b has mediocre priority, and its obvious when hes about to use it, so Im pretty sure NL has mroe priority than it.